Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

wellboytoo

hardybuck wrote: »

You could get into a really technical and emotive argument there. Some of it theoretical, much of it based on your general opinions.

I would point to the significant amount of social protections and equality that we have in Ireland versus other parts of the world.

Some people certainly abuse that. It's possible never to be bothered working a day in your life but to be provided with a house, access to medical services, money to live on etc. These people have exactly the same amount of say in society as those who are paying six or seven figure sums in taxes.

Very few places in the world would you get such great access to politicans. You can literally write an email to a Minister or our Prime Minister and get a response within a week or so. Try that in China.

We have free speech. We have democracy. We have no idea of what real poverty is.

+1 Great post

robtri

wellboytoo wrote: »

+1 Great post

+2

7upfree

Max Powers wrote: »

to be fair 7up, i wasnt naming you personally just some of your responses as childish because they were so irrelevant to what was being responded to, anyway im glad that you distance yourself from those crazies and the flying picketers of W and KK facebook says no. Yeah, we were all let down by capitalism with the crash, most in the Dail did support it and its easy to look back with retrospect and say we should have let anglo go, course we should have, looking back.
Was it Churchill who said something like 'capitalism is rubbish, but then you look at the alternatives' (and you realise its the best option). The alternative to capitalism doesnt exist in Ireland, at least, there is no credible voices, SF, murphy, coppinger, socialist workers and all the others will have you believe we can scrap water tax, LPT, USC (probably about 10 billion) and tell our creditors to sod off without consequences whilist maintaining welfare, public jobs etc by just replacing all the above with a super tax on wealthy. This has not only have uncalcuable risks but also would bring in about 500million. So we have come full circle, to our original post couple weeks back of the need for legitmate and necessary taxes such as the LPT, Water tax, USC, prsi, PAYE.........
Added and right back to my OP, i will say again, look at those TDs and parties who make the claims about you can scrap all the taxes and replace with one super rich tax, look at their behaviour, fanning the flames of violence, indicated in various cover ups of violence and sex abuse, what would life be like under those. Id rather grin and bear a few taxes in safe knowledge that i can stand up and criticise the govt without them burning down my house, stopping me from working, threats to family or worse.

Fair enough Max. But the problem I have is that it is now one tax after another. It is endless. With the USC now taking more from some people wages than PRSI.

It is truly ridiculous.

We elected what transpired to be a bunch of spoofers.

Soon to be replaced by even more.

A radical charge has to take place. The debt placed on us is unsustainable for a country of this size. Even IMF member have admitted that.

7upfree

hardybuck wrote: »

We have no idea of what real poverty is.

Try asking that of the people who cannot feed their children.

The people who have a few quid in their pocket after everything is taken to run a household.

I'm sure you'll get a quite different answer.

These are the people who are not blagging off the welfare system, but paying their way. Yes there are many on the welfare system who desperately need it, but the amount who are on the make is ridiculous.

Did you know that if you are given an "invalidity" payment, you automatically get free travel for your spouse and yourself. Even if you have a car. And are able to drive?

hardybuck

7upfree wrote: »

Try asking that of the people who cannot feed their children.

The people who have a few quid in their pocket after everything is taken to run a household.

I'm sure you'll get a quite different answer.

These are the people who are not blagging off the welfare system, but paying their way. Yes there are many on the welfare system who desperately need it, but the amount who are on the make is ridiculous.

Did you know that if you are given an "invalidity" payment, you automatically get free travel for your spouse and yourself. Even if you have a car. And are able to drive?

There are many who abuse the system and rob resources from those who really need them.

I was actually speaking to a sociologist working for the Portuguese government yesterday by coincidence who couldn't believe how progressive our welfare policy is. She also advised that they would have a very different definition and understansing of what poverty is.

But this isn't about who deserves what, it's me saying we're not doing too bad. Go abroad and you'll realise that.

wellboytoo

7upfree wrote: »

Try asking that of the people who cannot feed their children.

The people who have a few quid in their pocket after everything is taken to run a household.

I'm sure you'll get a quite different answer.

These are the people who are not blagging off the welfare system, but paying their way. Yes there are many on the welfare system who desperately need it, but the amount who are on the make is ridiculous.

Did you know that if you are given an "invalidity" payment, you automatically get free travel for your spouse and yourself. Even if you have a car. And are able to drive?

Some day's I think you are a radical left wing idealist, and then you say something like the above and I think you're a staunch right winger? an enigma 7 up free is what you are

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

Some day's I think you are a radical left wing idealist, and then you say something like the above and I think you're a staunch right winger? an enigma 7 up free is what you are

No more than yourself WB2

7upfree

hardybuck wrote: »

There are many who abuse the system and rob resources from those who really need them.

I was actually speaking to a sociologist working for the Portuguese government yesterday by coincidence who couldn't believe how progressive our welfare policy is. She also advised that they would have a very different definition and understansing of what poverty is.

But this isn't about who deserves what, it's me saying we're not doing too bad. Go abroad and you'll realise that.

Define 'we'......

Gael23

Just after hearing that John Halligans father has died.

hardybuck

7upfree wrote: »

Define 'we'......

I used that word zero times in the quoted text.

7upfree

hardybuck wrote: »

But this isn't about who deserves what, it's me saying we're not doing too bad. Go abroad and you'll realise that.

There ya go........:)

hardybuck

7upfree wrote: »

There ya go........:)

The Irish population, as a society. As I outlined in that post.

hardybuck

Ciara Conway is apparently going to vote against the party whip today, or at least go missing for the vote. That would be automatic expulsion from the Labour Party, so Waterford will have two independents.

Taxburden carrier

hardybuck wrote: »

Ciara Conway is apparently going to vote against the party whip today, or at least go missing for the vote. That would be automatic expulsion from the Labour Party, so Waterford will have two independents.

Independents or dependants ?

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

The Irish population, as a society. As I outlined in that post.

Ah so we, by your logic, will always be doing alright as long as we don't turn into Palestine or somewhere.

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

Ah so we, by your logic, will always be doing alright as long as we don't turn into Palestine or somewhere.

We are in the minority of the world population that enjoy basic freedoms such as free speech, a functioning welfare system, access to healthcare, democracy.

AdMMM

hardybuck wrote: »

Ciara Conway is apparently going to vote against the party whip today, or at least go missing for the vote. That would be automatic expulsion from the Labour Party, so Waterford will have two independents.

It's an interesting one. If she goes missing for the vote (as she and other Labour TDs have done in the past), then she probably won't face any further action as Labour can ill-afford to lose more TDs in the run up the election. They've been offered a strong out by the Attorney General who says it's unconstitutional so there's at least some scope there for being able to spin it as flawed legislation.

However, for a lot of Labour TDs here, they'll be thinking about the next election and whether or not they'd be better off actually losing the whip over this issue.

hardybuck

AdMMM wrote: »

It's an interesting one. If she goes missing for the vote (as she and other Labour TDs have done in the past), then she probably won't face any further action as Labour can ill-afford to lose more TDs in the run up the election. They've been offered a strong out by the Attorney General who says it's unconstitutional so there's at least some scope there for being able to spin it as flawed legislation.

However, for a lot of Labour TDs here, they'll be thinking about the next election and whether or not they'd be better off actually losing the whip over this issue.

Yeah fair point about Labour now versus Labour a year or two ago. Others fell by that sword, interesting to see how they approach it.

Agree on the point about losing the whip in a cynical way to be seen to have disagreed with the party leadership.

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

We are in the minority of the world population that enjoy basic freedoms such as free speech, a functioning welfare system, access to healthcare, democracy.

We are supposed to be a first world country, with all the taxes and charges people pay we should expect nothing less. Free speech? 33 people including a TD are being arrested for how they voiced their opinion, if you think free speech should mean you can only speak about it and not act on it (obviously within reason) then its not free speech. Welfare system is a joke, a welfare system should be there to help the needy not fork out money to people who are well capable to live without benefits.
Health care system that sees children waiting 2 years for an MRI, over 500 people on trolleys and if I'm not mistaken varadkar mutterd something about having more private clinics and less public hospitals.
Democracy?
A TD knocks on doors and says water charges are wrong, many people believe him and vote him in, the TD takes his seat and the party whip tells him to vote in favour of water charges as well as the person he shares his office with bullying and intimidating him. The only thing Democratic about this political system is tiny spec of an idea of democracy every few years, AFTER another band of piglets have scoffed from the trough.
Switzerland, that's a Democratic model if ever there was one.
Instead of telling people to compare our society to one that's full of oppression to make us feel OK with what's happening here, why don't you have a look as some society's which are thriving because I believe that if this country had a meaningful democratic model, proper avenues, laws and consequences to deal with corruption, capable people managing the nations finances, a rebuilt healthcare system, and a welfare system that caters for the citizens that need it, then this country could be up there with the best.

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

We are supposed to be a first world country, with all the taxes and charges people pay we should expect nothing less. Free speech? 33 people including a TD are being arrested for how they voiced their opinion, if you think free speech should mean you can only speak about it and not act on it (obviously within reason) then its not free speech. Welfare system is a joke, a welfare system should be there to help the needy not fork out money to people who are well capable to live without benefits.
Health case system that sees children waiting 2 years for an MRI, over 500 people on trolleys and if I'm not mistaken varadkar mutterd something about having more private clinics and less public hospitals.
Democracy?
A TD knocks on doors and says water charges are wrong, many people believe him and vote him in, the TD takes his seat and the party whip tells him to vote in favour of water charges as well as the person he shares his office with bullying and intimidating him. The only thing Democratic about this political system is tiny spec of an idea of democracy every few years, AFTER another band of piglets have scoffed from the trough.
Switzerland, that's a Democratic model if ever their was on.
Instead of telling people to compare our society to one that's full of oppression to make us feel OK with what's happening here, why don't you have a look as some society's which are thriving because I believe that if this country had a meaningful democratic model, proper avenues, laws and consequences to deal with corruption, capable people managing the nations finances, a rebuilt healthcare system, a welfare system that caters for the citizens that need it(to name a few) then this country could be up there with the best.

We are a first world country. Count your blessings. Have your say in the next election. If you don't like the outcome, you have the ability to voice that opinion. If you really don't like it you have the ability to feck off and apply for a visa to get into somewhere like Switzerland.

By the way, Switzerland was all over the news yesterday in connection with aggressive tax avoidance policies. Swiss bank accounts were used to avoid hundreds of millions of tax in 203 countries, including Ireland. Sounds like a really progressive setup there.

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

We are a first world country. Count your blessings. Have your say in the next election. If you don't like the outcome, you have the ability to voice that opinion. If you really don't like it you have the ability to feck off and apply for a visa to get into somewhere like Switzerland.

By the way, Switzerland was all over the news yesterday in connection with aggressive tax avoidance policies. Swiss bank accounts were used to avoid hundreds of millions of tax in 203 countries, including Ireland. Sounds like a really progressive setup there.

Lol
That's priceless, you say we have democracy and then go on to point out how completely inferior our Democratic system is. I and many others have no voice, we are supposed to be represented by the people elected by us. That does not happen, we elect people that bow to the leader and toe the line in return someone somewhere might get a handy passport or a medical card.

Can you tell me how a bank has anything to do with the swiss Democratic model?
If anything it highlights the double standards in this country, I wonder if there is any irish political figures or their wealthy buddys on those lists.
No need to look at a swiss bank for a "tax avoidance" line when our own government facilitate a similar situation.
Swiss banks have been operating like that for years, why now all of a sudden is it a shock?

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

Lol
That's priceless, you say we have democracy and then go on to point out how completely inferior our Democratic system is. I and many others have no voice, we are supposed to be represented by the people elected by us. That does not happen, we elect people that bow to the leader and toe the line in return someone somewhere might get a handy passport or a medical card.

Can you tell me how a bank has anything to do with the swiss Democratic model?
If anything it highlights the double standards in this country, I wonder if there is any irish political figures or their wealthy buddys on those lists.

Where did I point out how inferior our democratic system is? You have your vote. I have my vote. We all have one, that's how it works.

In your previous statement on the Swiss democratic model, you mentioned laws and consequences to deal with corruption. The Swiss Government negotiated a deal with the American authorities to allow hundreds of Swiss banks to avoid prosecution by releasing information on American clients which could be used to recoup tax. Does that sound a corrupt setup?

By the way, I don't know a lot about the Swiss democratic model, and I'm sure others don't either. Perhaps you could enlighten us, and to how it differs from other first world countries?

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

Where did I point out how inferior our democratic system is? You have your vote. I have my vote. We all have one, that's how it works.

In your previous statement on the Swiss democratic model, you mentioned laws and consequences to deal with corruption. The Swiss Government negotiated a deal with the American authorities to allow hundreds of Swiss banks to avoid prosecution by releasing information on American clients which could be used to recoup tax. Does that sound a corrupt setup?

By the way, I don't know a lot about the Swiss democratic model, and I'm sure others don't either. Perhaps you could enlighten us, and to how it differs from other first world countries?

#

Because your post points out that the only say we have is at a GE, one vote, just one single vote to decide who effects our lives and how they effect it for four years. If a TD gets elected and toes the party line instead of thinking of their constituents then its tough luck for his constituents and they are free to do this right through to the next GE, there are no safe gaurds against telling us one thing and doing another. Thats whats inferior and an insult to democracy.

I didnt say anything about the swiss model dealing with laws and consequences to corruption i said Ireland would be a better place if corruption could be dealt with, PAC and tribunals are a farce as they solve nothing. I was using the swiss model as a proper definition of democracy/representative democracy.

In a nutshell, the swiss people can call referendums on any issues they may have, they can recall any legislators they elect if they feel they are not doing their job. Things only change if a minimum amount of people vote on the issue, for instance 100,000 people must cast a vote otherwise the vote is void. Basically the people have more than one vote, to put a career politician in to office every four years.

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

#

Because your post points out that the only say we have is at a GE, one vote, just one single vote to decide who effects our lives and how they effect it for four years. If a TD gets elected and toes the party line instead of thinking of their constituents then its tough luck for his constituents and they are free to do this right through to the next GE, there are no safe gaurds against telling us one thing and doing another. Thats whats inferior and an insult to democracy.

I didnt say anything about the swiss model dealing with laws and consequences to corruption i said Ireland would be a better place if corruption could be dealt with, PAC and tribunals are a farce as they solve nothing. I was using the swiss model as a proper definition of democracy/representative democracy.

In a nutshell, the swiss people can call referendums on any issues they may have, they can recall any legislators they elect if they feel they are not doing their job. Things only change if a minimum amount of people vote on the issue, for instance 100,000 people must cast a vote otherwise the vote is void. Basically the people have more than one vote, to put a career politician in to office every four years.

No, you get a vote on your TDs whenever a GE is called. You could get 3 in 5 years. If there are any constitutional changes you have your say in that. Same goes for local Government etc.

If the overall will of the people, be that in your constituency or nationally, decide upon an outcome or representatives which conflicts with your views as an individual, when that's tough luck. As I say, you have the same opportunities to have your say as me and everyone else.

I must do some further research into the Swiss model, but to be honest, if it was so perfect I'm sure others would be doing it. Ireland is considered to be one of the least corrupt countries in the world. The tribunals etc. I would never defend, but at least we all know who was involved.

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

No, you get a vote on your TDs whenever a GE is called. You could get 3 in 5 years. If there are any constitutional changes you have your say in that. Same goes for local Government etc.

If the overall will of the people, be that in your constituency or nationally, decide upon an outcome or representatives which conflicts with your views as an individual, when that's tough luck. As I say, you have the same opportunities to have your say as me and everyone else.

I must do some further research into the Swiss model, but to be honest, if it was so perfect I'm sure others would be doing it. Ireland is considered to be one of the least corrupt countries in the world. The tribunals etc. I would never defend, but at least we all know who was involved.

Are you really going to suggest people should be content with 3 votes in 5 years and that its adequate enough to be called a democracy? What happens if there are no constitutional changes, what does the constitution prevent them from changing, what forces them to rigidly abide by the constitution?
Although i can see your side of things when it comes to more than one vote, after all we were granted two votes on the one constitutional change with regard the Nice treaty. Oh wait, is that because they didnt get the result they wanted the first time around? fair democracy there eh?
I suppose you'll now compare us with North Korea and say we should be honored to have such a freedom of expression.

Do you really think the over all will of the people is to see this country going the way its going with no ability to do anything about it for another year?
And if FG and FF jump into bed together and things continue on getting worse and the majority of people are unhappy after the first year of new austerity measures, what happens?
What you have is three entities in the one country, the government, the well off and the working poor and the level of separation between the working poor and the other two is greatly increasing. Enda's idea of a working wage proves this as well as Burtons plans to scrap the single parents allowance.
As for corruption indexes, its all perception.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/europeanrights-body-warns-of-corrupt-ireland-298902.html

The swiss model is nor perfect but an adaption of it would be a lot better than what we have here. In fact a recent meeting of our constitutional committee was in favour of a form of direct democracy but its not easy for the people to become aware of it.

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

Are you really going to suggest people should be content with 3 votes in 5 years and that its adequate enough to be called a democracy? What happens if there are no constitutional changes, what does the constitution prevent them from changing, what forces them to rigidly abide by the constitution?
Although i can see your side of things when it comes to more than one vote, after all we were granted two votes on the one constitutional change with regard the Nice treaty. Oh wait, is that because they didnt get the result they wanted the first time around? fair democracy there eh?
I suppose you'll now compare us with North Korea and say we should be honored to have such a freedom of expression.

Do you really think the over all will of the people is to see this country going the way its going with no ability to do anything about it for another year?
What you have is three entities in the one country, the government, the well off and the working poor and the level of separation between the working poor and the other two is greatly increasing. Enda's idea of a working wage proves this as well as Burtons plans to scrap the single parents allowance.
As for corruption indexes, its all perception.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/europeanrights-body-warns-of-corrupt-ireland-298902.html

The swiss model is nor perfect but an adaption of it would be a lot better than what we have here. In fact a recent meeting of our constitutional committee was in favour of a form of direct democracy but its not easy for the people to become aware of it.

I called it immediately in fairness. It got technical.

I have neither the time or interest in entering into it any further other to say what I did initially. We have it pretty good. Things are on the turn, our economy is now expected to be the fastest growing in Europe again. Our public expenses are stabilising. I'm not sure if it's made it's way down to you yet, but I hope it does.

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

I called it immediately in fairness. It got technical.

I have neither the time or interest in entering into it any further other to say what I did initially. We have it pretty good. Things are on the turn, our economy is now expected to be the fastest growing in Europe again. Our public expenses are stabilising. I'm not sure if it's made it's way down to you yet, but I hope it does.

You mean there is no point regurgitating the same stories of recovery and how we have it better than countries to someone beneath you. Just as there is no point in me telling you things are not as rose as you see it up there.

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

You mean there is no point regurgitating the same stories of recovery and how we have it better than countries to someone beneath you. Just as there is no point in me telling you things are not as rose as you see it up there.

No, I mean exactly what I said. Please don't place your own twist on my words, and claim that I've said something different.

Hijpo

hardybuck wrote: »

No, I mean exactly what I said. Please don't place your own twist on my words, and claim that I've said something different.

That's what i got from you not having any interest to converse and that the new found recovery "filters down" to me.

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

That's what i got from you not having any interest to converse and that the new found recovery "filters down" to me.

Well, again, I didn't use many of the words above, but to paraphrase I did say that I hoped that the economic growth and stabalisation of our finances would make it's way down to you.

I didn't literally mean that you were down at a lower rung of society, more of a turn of phrase. I do believe that our collective fortunes should improve, they certainly will for many, and I hope that you have some benefit from this.

I had some broad interest in discussing the topics at a high level, but I really don't and do not want to engage in a more detailed debate regarding the Constitution or other matters.