Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD
Comments
-
-
Interesting! Ireland receives its worst ranking ever from Transparency International. Quite the indictment on the government. Especially a FG one who has this delusional belief system where they are the "law and order party" and the good honest party despite the litany of graft and corruption they are responsible for.0 -
So as it turns out, only one TD voted against the bill. and as Matt Cooper pointed out in one of today's papers, it smacks of cowardice from Labour TDs.Yeah fair point about Labour now versus Labour a year or two ago. Others fell by that sword, interesting to see how they approach it.
Agree on the point about losing the whip in a cynical way to be seen to have disagreed with the party leadership.
I can't help but think that politically this was an own goal for Ciara Conway. The Labour vote won't get her in next time around, and so long as she's voting against legislation that the majority of women support (bare in mind she was the only woman on the ballot paper last time around), she won't stand a chance.
There won't be many more opportunities for her to jump ship between now and the election without it being seen for the act of desperation that it would be.
Also, if she does read these Boards, some free advice; don't tweet about Hozier and Annie Lennox on the eve of important legislation being debated.0 -
....
I can't help but think that politically this was an own goal for Ciara Conway. The Labour vote won't get her in next time around, and so long as she's voting against legislation that the majority of women support (bare in mind she was the only woman on the ballot paper last time around), she won't stand a chance.
There won't be many more opportunities for her to jump ship between now and the election without it being seen for the act of desperation that it would be....
I think she probably realised that whatever little chance she has of getting elected as a Labour TD, that would become zero chance as an independent. I have no inside knowledge but I'd guess that she does not have enough experienced personal supporters to run a election campaign without the support of a political party. Self preservation.
Is there any Waterford Labour Party members who would be willing to give the local party's inside opinion on her?
Shameful though to see that SF abstained on this.
I am assuming that John Halligan voted YES, and John Deasy and Paudie Coffey voted NO, as they did during the last similar Private Members bill on 19/04/2012.0 -
Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 26420
Also, if she does read these Boards, some free advice; don't tweet about Hozier and Annie Lennox on the eve of important legislation being debated.
Tweeting about media/music seems perfectly normal for her, she seems awful interested in creating a media image and less interested in actually doing meaningful political work.
My guess, she wants to become some media commentator in the long term and she's trying to network to get to know people.
Of course she could all surprise us, she could go independent and still get re-elected. There's alot of silly people that will vote for her purely on the basis that they hear about her in the media, so maybe thats what she's upto as well.
Plenty of time for her to jump ship and she knows it,Shameful though to see that SF abstained on this.
Agreed, its utterly pathetic,
There's is clearly an appetite for this issue to be addressed, but we're lacking TD's or entire party's that refuse to take a stand on it on the basis that it might upset some "catholic" voters.0 -
Advertisement
-
When you jump ship in politics it needs to be over a credible issue and you also need and time to convince the voters that you've changed.Tweeting about media/music seems perfectly normal for her, she seems awful interested in creating a media image and less interested in actually doing meaningful political work.
My guess, she wants to become some media commentator in the long term and she's trying to network to get to know people.
Of course she could all surprise us, she could go independent and still get re-elected. There's alot of silly people that will vote for her purely on the basis that they hear about her in the media, so maybe thats what she's upto as well.
Plenty of time for her to jump ship and she knows it,
Agreed, its utterly pathetic,
There's is clearly an appetite for this issue to be addressed, but we're lacking TD's or entire party's that refuse to take a stand on it on the basis that it might upset some "catholic" voters.
The longer she remains in Labour and continues to vote with the party, the more difficult it will be to be credibly leave. It certainly wouldn't be easy for her to try explain why she was perfectly happy to vote with the Government on issues that were heaping misery on her constituents (I mean typical Labour voters here) for four years, but then end up defying the whip over something small, conveniently in the run up to the election.0 -
Forget about Conway for a minute as she wont be around much longer, the front of the munster says that UHW has the 2nd highest admissions for diabetes yet there is one full time doc, one PT and they are hoping to recruit another, Galway has 7 and one PT, Kilkenny has twice the number of UHW and Mater 5 to mention some quoted in article, how can sucessive ministers, not just Leo stand over a system that blatantly doesnt put resources where they are needed most.
Obviously, its great for Galway, KK and others to have a decent amount of consultants but having 3 times as many people in one area doing less work is insanity0 -
Max Powers wrote: »Forget about Conway for a minute as she wont be around much longer, the front of the munster says that UHW has the 2nd highest admissions for diabetes yet there is one full time doc, one PT and they are hoping to recruit another, Galway has 7 and one PT, Kilkenny has twice the number of UHW and Mater 5 to mention some quoted in article, how can sucessive ministers, not just Leo stand over a system that blatantly doesnt put resources where they are needed most.
Obviously, its great for Galway, KK and others to have a decent amount of consultants but having 3 times as many people in one area doing less work is insanity
I wonder will our "junior" (in more ways than one) minister have anything to say about it. He was sending letters into the paper nearly every other week before the last general election. He has one thing in common with Ciara Conway. When the place is being shafted he is nowhere to be seen. When there is some peanuts being thrown our way he is not so shy about writing an "I welcome it !"letter to the local papers.0 -
Just read that the LÉ Aoife will be gifted to the Maltese. A missed opportunity .for Waterford.0
-
MRnotlob606 wrote: »Just read that the LÉ Aoife will be gifted to the Maltese. A missed opportunity .for Waterford.
gifted? where did you see that? Thoroughly disappointing if so, i can handle it if they wanted the 300k for it and we couldnt come up with it, but to give it away, surely not.0 -
Advertisement
-
Max Powers wrote: »gifted? where did you see that? Thoroughly disappointing if so, i can handle it if they wanted the 300k for it and we couldnt come up with it, but to give it away, surely not.
mrnot lob606, you should have posted the full story, its going to be used for humantiarium work with refugeess in malta so its been put to good use. Its hard to be disappointed when its going to save lives. Not posting what its been used for makes it look like govt were kicking Waterford again.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »mrnot lob606, you should have posted the full story, its going to be used for humantiarium work with refugeess in malta so its been put to good use. Its hard to be disappointed when its going to save lives. Not posting what its been used for makes it look like govt were kicking Waterford again.
More like "humanitarian".........0 -
Anybody else totally bored with the water/anti austerity/very vocal/pro anything Greek/boycott late late show brigade on social.media?
It seems to crop up everywhere no matter how innocuous the subject it seems to crop up.0 -
wellboytoo wrote: »Anybody else totally bored with the water/anti austerity/very vocal/pro anything Greek/boycott late late show brigade on social.media?
It seems to crop up everywhere no matter how innocuous the subject it seems to crop up.
I do find myself wondering about these people...but at the same time, I don't want the government to get away with how they set up this company in the first place.
The problem in Ireland now is that there seems to be a split forming, the protestors and everyone else. If you don't share the exact opinions as the protestors, you are deemed to be one of them.
Facebook has given idiots a platform to set up boycott pages and such everytime someone or something annoys them.
I'm one of those people that think FG have actually done a good job in some ways. They made a huge error with Irish Water and instead of nipping it in the bud earlier they dug themselves deeper and deeper. Now they are trying to lie their way out of it.
I won't be boycotting anyone and I won't be barricading anyone into their car. I won't see Paul Murphy as a good politician and I won't be sharing posts from 2013 about how Irish Water have the ability to up their charges every year, just to rally the masses.
Ireland is a very frustrating country to live in right now because the majority of the population are stuck between a rock and a hard place.0 -
wellboytoo wrote: »Anybody else totally bored with the water/anti austerity/very vocal/pro anything Greek/boycott late late show brigade on social.media?
It seems to crop up everywhere no matter how innocuous the subject it seems to crop up.
Interesting how the protestors are painted as some kind of idiots or parasites. People who protested are put in solitary confinement, while those who destroyed Ireland, Inc. freely walk the streets, many after declaring bankruptcy outside of this jurisdiction.
The portrayal of them as gormless morons of some sort is actually quite offensive, seeing as it's the "educated" ones who have brought the country to where it is today.
The Irish Water debacle is, to put it mildly, a scandal. A quango of the worst kind, put in place to charge people (again) for water. Bord Gais already had the systems in place to operate the billing system, and the creation of this monstrosity defied all logical and financial belief.
However, the most disturbing thing of all is the witnessing of those who cheerlead this "process" describing others as being mentally deficient in some shape or form.
The statement above that FG have done a "good job" actually defies belief. It's up there with the statement that AIB are "back in profit". The population are not stuck between a rock and a hard place.
They are stuck between idiot politicians who promise the sun, the moon, and the stars (then renege on it) and oversea economic vultures.0 -
Interesting how the protestors are painted as some kind of idiots or parasites. People who protested are put in solitary confinement, while those who destroyed Ireland, Inc. freely walk the streets, many after declaring bankruptcy outside of this jurisdiction.
The portrayal of them as gormless morons of some sort is actually quite offensive, seeing as it's the "educated" ones who have brought the country to where it is today.
The Irish Water debacle is, to put it mildly, a scandal. A quango of the worst kind, put in place to charge people (again) for water. Bord Gais already had the systems in place to operate the billing system, and the creation of this monstrosity defied all logical and financial belief.
However, the most disturbing thing of all is the witnessing of those who cheerlead this "process" describing others as being mentally deficient in some shape of form.
The statement above that FG have done a "good job" actually defies belief. It's up there with the statement that AIB are "back in profit". The population are not stuck between a rock and a hard place.
They are stuck between idiot politicians who promise the sun, the moon, and the stars (then renege on it) and oversea economic vultures.
I asked was anybody else bored with it all, nothing else and you then proved the Bowling Alleys point by the above tirade!0 -
wellboytoo wrote: »I asked was anybody else bored with it all, nothing else and you then proved the Bowling Alleys point by the above tirade!
It is only a tirade to blinkered people, too blind to observe what's happening around them.0 -
Interesting how the protestors are painted as some kind of idiots or parasites. People who protested are put in solitary confinement, while those who destroyed Ireland, Inc. freely walk the streets, many after declaring bankruptcy outside of this jurisdiction.
The portrayal of them as gormless morons of some sort is actually quite offensive, seeing as it's the "educated" ones who have brought the country to where it is today.
The Irish Water debacle is, to put it mildly, a scandal. A quango of the worst kind, put in place to charge people (again) for water. Bord Gais already had the systems in place to operate the billing system, and the creation of this monstrosity defied all logical and financial belief.
However, the most disturbing thing of all is the witnessing of those who cheerlead this "process" describing others as being mentally deficient in some shape or form.
The statement above that FG have done a "good job" actually defies belief. It's up there with the statement that AIB are "back in profit". The population are not stuck between a rock and a hard place.
They are stuck between idiot politicians who promise the sun, the moon, and the stars (then renege on it) and oversea economic vultures.
I can see how people might have issues with the way Irish Water was set up or how it's run. But to be against its actual existence is really remarkable. And the people against it existing are generally the kind of people that want everything in life paid for by somebody else. Even if it means raising taxes higher than the current 51% marginal rate faced by single people earning more than €33,800 a year.
What makes this worse is that water charges are actually a brilliant policy. One of the best economic policies introduced in years. It helps close the budget deficit, it's good for the economy (encourages more efficient use of scarce resource), good for the environment (encourages people to use less), is fair (provides allowances for basic needs and those that use more pay more) and also earmarks money to fix our decrepit water infrastructure.
I hope I don't know what you mean by paying for water "again". Because if I do that means you're referring to that rubbish that's already been widely debunked.
I'm no fan of Fine Gael and Labour and think they could be doing far better. But to say they aren't doing a good job is a sign of someone that is so anti-government that they have lost touch with reality. Ireland is one of the fastest growing economies in Europe. Unemployment is falling pretty fast. The budget deficit has been closed and is being closed faster than expected.
The Government could be doing a better job but the Government is doing a good job. And more importantly the Government is doing a better job than anything the opposition could come up with.0 -
Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 26420
Interesting how the protestors are painted as some kind of idiots or parasites. People who protested are put in solitary confinement, while those who destroyed Ireland, Inc. freely walk the streets, many after declaring bankruptcy outside of this jurisdiction.
If you can prove somebody is guilty beyond reasonable doubt then by all means go right ahead,
But remember, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one person doesn't end up infront of a judge does not give an exemption to everyone else for other crimes.The portrayal of them as gormless morons of some sort is actually quite offensive, seeing as it's the "educated" ones who have brought the country to where it is today.
I wouldn't call them morons, but I would say that they could have very easily avoided jail time. All they had to do was follow the court order
There are loads of things the protestors could have done without being contempt of court, instead they choose to ignore what they had previously been told.The Irish Water debacle is, to put it mildly, a scandal.
I'd certainly agree that there are problems with how IW has been setup,
I would say however that the protestors of late are not doing themselves any favours. I know a few people that supported the protestors up until very recently, but the name calling against the president really made them loose respect for the protestors.
The fact that the person who name called saw no issue with what he did and was also heavily involved in organizing a big protest in Dublin seriously undermined them.
The protestors really need somebody to look after their PR image and to shut up stupid idiots like the man in question.0 -
Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 26420
Suryavarman wrote: »I'm no fan of Fine Gael and Labour and think they could be doing far better. But to say they aren't doing a good job is a sign of someone that is so anti-government that they have lost touch with reality. Ireland is one of the fastest growing economies in Europe. Unemployment is falling pretty fast. The budget deficit has been closed and is being closed faster than expected.
The Government could be doing a better job but the Government is doing a good job. And more importantly the Government is doing a better job than anything the opposition could come up with.
I'mn certainly no fan of them either I gota say,
But credit where credit is due,
Have they made some good decisions, yes without a doubt.
Have they made some awful decisions, yes without a doubt.
The problem is no goverment is perfect and to start with FG were handed a **** situation where one way or another they had to made some awful decisions, it was never going to be a easy journey.
The problem with FG previously and SF and others now is its piss easy to be a opposition party. You just say populist stuff that gets people to notice you and gets you mentioned in the media.
However saying you'll do xyz and doing xyz when you get into goverment and finally realise "holy **** we need money to do this" is a very different kettle of fish.
Of course we are a odd species, we have very short memory's and if SF get into power in the morning we'll see them backtrack on just as much stuff as FG when they cop that they can't fund tonnes of stuff with the pension reserve fund amongst other things.0 -
Advertisement
-
It is only a tirade to blinkered people, too blind to observe what's happening around them.
The above often misplaced righteousness is one of the main things that is annoying/boring a lot of people about the new water tax protesters. Along with comparing themselves to the struggle for black equality in America (i heard one fella comparing their protest to Rosa Parks bus protest), calling themselves heroes and patriots on their web pages...(move over Collins and Mandela) and just the general pathetic and disgraceful way they have behaved at times, see Paul Murphy TD et al, so called peaceful protest when they are intimidating workers trying to do their jobs, trying to make up stories about unsafe equipment, work practices etc.
Unless you are advocating a default on our debts, i dont think anyone is, we need new taxes, it would be nice to think that a 50-90% tax on wealth or incomes over 100k could fill the gap of the LPT, USC, Water etc but it cant so we need various other taxes. Too many people dont have to pay LPT and others and i reckon these are the people most vociferously against the water tax, some dont want to pay anything.
The water protesters will argue go on about all the not jailed bankers, Bertie, enda, pensions etc etc (all bad situations that would ideally be changed) but not relevant to the core, the govt need more money to try balance the books, water tax is just one of the hundred other things that have been done to try balance the books. I said it before, look at the behaviour and track record of Murphy, Coppinger SF and others, I wouldnt feel safe in this country with those people in charge. Say what you like about Enda and the rest, they arent arranging for mobs outside my house, threatening to burn down my house, protesting outside my work, intimidating me and my family, preventing me from working etc etc.
On saying all that, the govts introduction of the water tax has been a mess, they should have issued 100€ charge to every house in the state and money goes directly to your local county councils water departments, they then could have reduced funding to county council by amount they take in.0 -
Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 26420
Max Powers wrote: »calling themselves heroes and patriots on their web pages...
No doubt many of them are also in the same belief as Mr Darcy who believed Constance Markievicz gave up his life to enable us to eradicate suppression, taxation, eviction, criminality..
0 -
Just seen pictures on Facebook from the anti water meter task force today on the bridge with placards "free the 5". Thought only four are in prison whilst the other lad is in fuerteventura or something?0
-
I'd certainly agree that there are problems with how IW has been setup,
I would say however that the protestors of late are not doing themselves any favours. I know a few people that supported the protestors up until very recently, but the name calling against the president really made them loose respect for the protestors.
The fact that the person who name called saw no issue with what he did and was also heavily involved in organizing a big protest in Dublin seriously undermined them.
The protestors really need somebody to look after their PR image and to shut up stupid idiots like the man in question.
To say there are problems with how Irish Water was setup is like saying "Northern Ireland" troubles were a pub brawl. The monumental waste that has incurred because of this is something that would put Fianna Fail to shame. The conflicts of interest involved with Dennis O'Briens (Enda Golf Buddy) company being awarded contracts to install water meters again makes Fianna Fail look like choir boys. The same Dennis O' Brien whose company had over a hundred million written off by nationalised financial institutions which means Joe Tax payer ultimately gets the bill..
http://www.irishleftreview.org/2014/09/10/phil-hogan-embodiment-crony-capitalist-links-business-politics-ireland/
Now before anyone gets carried away with saying FG have done a good job considering what they inherited bear somehing in mind. The crisis in Ireland lest we forget was caused by Hot Money pouring into the country from Foreign banks and being redistributed in cheap loans by Irish banks. The legal mechanisms that allowed this to happen were the Monetary Union policies which FG were fully supportive off. Therefore they are just as culpable as FF when it comes to proportion of blame. You might be able to blame FF for the Bank Guarantee but FG failed to acheive any writedown by themselves despite opportunities to do so.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-government-blew-opportunity-to-get-debt-deal-former-imf-chief-mody-30996108.html
So to say Water protesters (ordinary people) are guilty of bad PR is laughable when you see the cluster f&cks the government are responsible for despite their infinite spind doctors and advisors..
Thank God their hands were tied becaue of the troika. Because look at the amount of damage done by parochialism and cronyism involved in IW alone. And this is one of the few areas where they have had freedom to operate.0 -
But remember, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one person doesn't end up infront of a judge does not give an exemption to everyone else for other crimes.
Ever heard of the punishment fitting the crime? In Ireland 2015 this isn't the case. People who have cost Irish people (who had no hand, act, or part in this) are swanning about. And none of these in solitary confinement either.I would say however that the protestors of late are not doing themselves any favours. I know a few people that supported the protestors up until very recently, but the name calling against the president really made them loose respect for the protestors.
Agreed. But that man represents those who have continued the ruination of this country - the Labour Party.The protestors really need somebody to look after their PR image and to shut up stupid idiots like the man in question.
Unfortunately these are ordinary people. They do not have the benefit of a PR machine funded - again - by Irish citizens.0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »To say there are problems with how Irish Water was setup is like saying "Northern Ireland" troubles were a pub brawl. The monumental waste that has incurred because of this is something that would put Fianna Fail to shame. The conflicts of interest involved with Dennis O'Briens (Enda Golf Buddy) company being awarded contracts to install water meters again makes Fianna Fail look like choir boys. The same Dennis O' Brien whose company had over a hundred million written off by nationalised financial institutions which means Joe Tax payer ultimately gets the bill..
http://www.irishleftreview.org/2014/09/10/phil-hogan-embodiment-crony-capitalist-links-business-politics-ireland/
Now before anyone gets carried away with saying FG have done a good job considering what they inherited bear somehing in mind. The crisis in Ireland lest we forget was caused by Hot Money pouring into the country from Foreign banks and being redistributed in cheap loans by Irish banks. The legal mechanisms that allowed this to happen were the Monetary Union policies which FG were fully supportive off. Therefore they are just as culpable as FF when it comes to proportion of blame. You might be able to blame FF for the Bank Guarantee but FG failed to acheive any writedown by themselves despite opportunities to do so.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-government-blew-opportunity-to-get-debt-deal-former-imf-chief-mody-30996108.html
So to say Water protesters (ordinary people) are guilty of bad PR is laughable when you see the cluster f&cks the government are responsible for despite their infinite spind doctors and advisors..
Thank God their hands were tied becaue of the troika. Because look at the amount of damage done by parochialism and cronyism involved in IW alone. And this is one of the few areas where they have had freedom to operate.
Agree with much of the above Fuzzy. Far from a "good job", they have sold this country into hock four generations to come.0 -
Suryavarman wrote: »I can see how people might have issues with the way Irish Water was set up or how it's run. But to be against its actual existence is really remarkable. And the people against it existing are generally the kind of people that want everything in life paid for by somebody else. Even if it means raising taxes higher than the current 51% marginal rate faced by single people earning more than €33,800 a year.
Are you overlooking the fact that we are already paying for water? Twice?Suryavarman wrote: »What makes this worse is that water charges are actually a brilliant policy. One of the best economic policies introduced in years. It helps close the budget deficit, it's good for the economy (encourages more efficient use of scarce resource), good for the environment (encourages people to use less), is fair (provides allowances for basic needs and those that use more pay more) and also earmarks money to fix our decrepit water infrastructure.
Absolute baloney. How does it help close the "budget deficit"? This quango has cost an obscene amount of money at a time when the country cannot provide an adequate heath service. It is at the behest of the Troika and its sole purpose is not to improve infrastructure, but to tax overburdened citizens so that the interest on a gambling debt can be paid. This is reality.Suryavarman wrote: »I hope I don't know what you mean by paying for water "again". Because if I do that means you're referring to that rubbish that's already been widely debunked.
Again more baloney. It has been proven several times over. If you have to have this explained to you then you shouldn't even be discussing the topic.Suryavarman wrote: »I'm no fan of Fine Gael and Labour and think they could be doing far better. But to say they aren't doing a good job is a sign of someone that is so anti-government that they have lost touch with reality. Ireland is one of the fastest growing economies in Europe. Unemployment is falling pretty fast. The budget deficit has been closed and is being closed faster than expected.
The Government could be doing a better job but the Government is doing a good job. And more importantly the Government is doing a better job than anything the opposition could come up with.
Lol! "A good job"? Taxing its citizens to death?
Saying they ARE doing a good job is, to put it mildly, a delusion.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »The above often misplaced righteousness is one of the main things that is annoying/boring a lot of people about the new water tax protesters. Along with comparing themselves to the struggle for black equality in America (i heard one fella comparing their protest to Rosa Parks bus protest), calling themselves heroes and patriots on their web pages...(move over Collins and Mandela) and just the general pathetic and disgraceful way they have behaved at times, see Paul Murphy TD et al, so called peaceful protest when they are intimidating workers trying to do their jobs, trying to make up stories about unsafe equipment, work practices etc.
Unless you are advocating a default on our debts, i dont think anyone is, we need new taxes, it would be nice to think that a 50-90% tax on wealth or incomes over 100k could fill the gap of the LPT, USC, Water etc but it cant so we need various other taxes. Too many people dont have to pay LPT and others and i reckon these are the people most vociferously against the water tax, some dont want to pay anything.
The water protesters will argue go on about all the not jailed bankers, Bertie, enda, pensions etc etc (all bad situations that would ideally be changed) but not relevant to the core, the govt need more money to try balance the books, water tax is just one of the hundred other things that have been done to try balance the books. I said it before, look at the behaviour and track record of Murphy, Coppinger SF and others, I wouldnt feel safe in this country with those people in charge. Say what you like about Enda and the rest, they arent arranging for mobs outside my house, threatening to burn down my house, protesting outside my work, intimidating me and my family, preventing me from working etc etc.
On saying all that, the govts introduction of the water tax has been a mess, they should have issued 100€ charge to every house in the state and money goes directly to your local county councils water departments, they then could have reduced funding to county council by amount they take in.
Would agree with some of your sentiments Max, but, again, the reality is that no matter how you dress this up, this is not about water OR improving infrastructure. It is about the servicing of that gambling debt you mention above. We can dance around it all night, but this is the bottom line.0 -
Question for 7upfree. Has there ever been a time in this country, when you were alive, that you thought a government was doing a good job?0
-
Advertisement
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqIbWacFRQ
Advertisement