Communions/confirmations, utter farce?

Freiheit

Parents who don't believe in God, those who do or aren't sure usually don't do what the church preaches. Yet they are celebrating their progeny being initiated into this discredited institution. What's it all about?

sea_monkey

Tradition,conforming, fear of making their child different

DazMarz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCkOmcIl79s

For the kids anyway (and in some cases the parents), the above video, particularly the chorus, would seem to be the reason behind it...

lazygal

Sure its a lovely day out, isn't it? Sure, everyone else is doing it, they'll be gutted if they're left out. Ah, its different from our day, the priest is lovely and they teach them about being friends, that kinda thing. Sure why wouldn't you want them doing it? Ah, the grannies would be devastated if we didn't do it, they love the day out. It won't do them any harm, sure I don't agree with the church but, sure we have our own faith, you have to believe in something, don't you? Ah, they've been doing it in school, you couldn't back out when they've been hearing about it since they were in baby infants.

Etc, etc, etc. Never once have I heard any parents say they are including their children in the sacraments because they are important to them as a family raising children in Catholic doctrine. Its always a list of 'nice' bits about the church, wrapped up with tradition, the auld 'everyone else is doing it line' (because that's a good lesson to teach your children) and the nice memories they have of their own magic wafers.

magicbastarder

because they think it supplies a moral framework atheism doesn't, too.

Lisha

Communions confirmations are done through schools mostly . Noone wants to be the one to say my Johnny/Mary must be assigned class work while ye do the religious biz.
Also Nana would have a fit

lazygal

magicbastarder wrote: »

because they think it supplies a moral framework atheism doesn't, too.

[Citation needed]

Which moral framework are you applying that you learned from the communion and confirmation sacraments?

Zamboni

Freiheit wrote: »

Parents who don't believe in God, those who do or aren't sure usually don't do what the church preaches. Yet they are celebrating their progeny being initiated into this discredited institution. What's it all about?

It is the path of least resistance.

magicbastarder

lazygal wrote: »

[Citation needed]

Which moral framework are you applying that you learned from the communion and confirmation sacraments?

are you asking me or the hypothetical parents?

StillWaters

Freiheit wrote: »

Parents who don't believe in God, those who do or aren't sure usually don't do what the church preaches. Yet they are celebrating their progeny being initiated into this discredited institution. What's it all about?

I don't believe in God. My daughter is makin her confirmation this year. This was entirely her choice. She was offered a coming of age type day out together with cash should she choose not to make it. I didn't want money to be the deciding factor in her decision.

I imagine most reasonable Atheists and Agnostics raise their children to be critical thinkers and to make their own minds up about religion.

lazygal

StillWaters wrote: »

I don't believe in God. My daughter is makin her confirmation this year. This was entirely her choice. She was offered a coming of age type day out together with cash should she choose not to make it. I didn't want money to be the deciding factor in her decision.

I imagine most reasonable Atheists and Agnostics raise their children to be critical thinkers and to make their own minds up about religion.

Is she in a Catholic school? I presume she's 12. I don't think children of 12 know what they're getting into in terms of organised religion at 12. I know I didn't.

Pherekydes

magicbastarder wrote: »

are you asking me or the hypothetical parents?

You seemed to know what the hypothetical parents were thinking in your previous post.

It's a bit absurd, alright. I was confirmed at 9, in 1970. Get them brainwashed early, eh.

Mardy Bum

A lot of parents see religion as the easy way of instilling a bit of morality in kids.
A lot of people couldn't care less about contemplating reality in any depth sure isn't Britain's Got Scabies on and XFactor.
The common theme is laziness and a lack of desire to learn anything after secondary school.

jimd2

Freiheit wrote: »

Parents who don't believe in God, those who do or aren't sure usually don't do what the church preaches. Yet they are celebrating their progeny being initiated into this discredited institution. What's it all about?

It's a Catholic country, the majority of people here are Catholic. Still a significant number of people attending weekly Mass.

If you dont want to practice religion then it s up to you. You wont find Catholics starting discussion threads slagging you off. Find something else to moan about.

Galvasean

jimd2 wrote: »

Still a significant number of people attending weekly Mass.

That's an interesting interpretation of the word 'significant'.

shruikan2553

jimd2 wrote: »

It's a Catholic country, the majority of people here are Catholic. Still a significant number of people attending weekly Mass.

If you dont want to practice religion then it s up to you. You wont find Catholics starting discussion threads slagging you off. Find something else to moan about.

And yet very few people understand their faith for us to be in a catholic country with a "significant" number of people attending mass with most people asked saying that religion isnt important in their lives.

I dont see him slagging off Catholics, its the people who call themselves catholic while not going near a church outside of weddings and Christmas he is questioning.

jimd2

Galvasean wrote: »

That's an interesting interpretation of the word 'significant'.

What problem do you have with my use of the word?

jimd2

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And yet very few people understand their faith for us to be in a catholic country with a "significant" number of people attending mass with most people asked saying that religion isnt important in their lives.

I dont see him slagging off Catholics, its the people who call themselves catholic while not going near a church outside of weddings and Christmas he is questioning.

Have you a link to the reports showing that very few understand their faith and also the report saying that most people attending mass say that religion isn't important in their lives (that is how I interpreted your point).

Sarky

jimd2 wrote: »

What problem do you have with my use of the word?

It would seem completely unsuitable, because buggerall people go to mass any more. Did it really have to be spelled out for you? And one really doesn't have to travel very far to see Catholics starting discussion threads slagging off non-Catholics. Not very far at all. They're just not very good at it.

shruikan2553

jimd2 wrote: »

Have you a link to the reports showing that very few understand their faith and also the report saying that most people attending mass say that religion isn't important in their lives (that is how I interpreted your point).

I havent seen any reports myself on peoples understanding of their faith but from my own experience when an atheist (or I may be more ignostic) is telling you what you are supposedly meant to believe as a Catholic I would question what do you actually know about your belief. Although the children that are counted as members know nothing about the group they are part of but I'll ignore them as they are being "educated" of it.

What I meant was they are two separate groups but again I have no evidence to prove that most church goers are or are not religious, they could have nothing better to do on a Sunday morning.

This is copy/pasted from a discussion I had on the Christianity forum:

Look hear at church attendance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...lic_of_Ireland

And here for 53% of Ireland answered no to "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelig...lic_of_Ireland

Sarky wrote: »

It would seem completely unsuitable, because buggerall people go to mass any more. Did it really have to be spelled out for you? And one really doesn't have to travel very far to see Catholics starting discussion threads slagging off non-Catholics. Not very far at all. They're just not very good at it.

The last time it turned into a discussion on biscuits which was actually more popular than the original topic.

jimd2

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I havent seen any reports myself on peoples understanding of their faith but from my own experience when an atheist (or I may be more ignostic) is telling you what you are supposedly meant to believe as a Catholic I would question what do you actually know about your belief. Although the children that are counted as members know nothing about the group they are part of but I'll ignore them as they are being "educated" of it.

What I meant was they are two separate groups but again I have no evidence to prove that most church goers are or are not religious, they could have nothing better to do on a Sunday morning.

This is copy/pasted from a discussion I had on the Christianity forum:

Look hear at church attendance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...lic_of_Irelandk

And here for 53% of Ireland answered no to "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelig...lic_of_Ireland

First of all what is ignostic?

Explain the bit where you have explained what I am "supposedly meant to believe" ??

And your 53% answering no to the importance of religion question, is that of people attending mass as you seemed to state in your post?

jimd2

Sarky wrote: »

It would seem completely unsuitable, because buggerall people go to mass any more. Did it really have to be spelled out for you? And one really doesn't have to travel very far to see Catholics starting discussion threads slagging off non-Catholics. Not very far at all. They're just not very good at it.

Maybe in your area "buggerall" go to mass but in my area a significant number of people go. That is not saying the majority go but a substantial amount go in comparison to the numbers going to many other events both religious and non religious. My area is a town circa 5-10000 population so is not a rural hamlet.

And if you have a recent thread that makes your point better on the Catholics slagging off non Catholics then post a link. We are all big boys here. I do mean recent as a google search can almost find anything online.

shruikan2553

jimd2 wrote: »

First of all what is ignostic?

Explain the bit where you have explained what I am "supposedly meant to believe" ??

And your 53% answering no to the importance of religion question, is that of people attending mass as you seemed to state in your post?

Im new to the idea of ignosticism but from my reading of it it asks what is meant by the term god and beliefs vary for different definitions.

Transubstantiation, homosexuality is a sin, divorce is wrong, contraception is wrong, moldy cloth should be taken to a priest etc etc. Quite a few protestants who consider themselves catholic in this country.

As mentioned above that is not what I meant. They are statistics of mass attendance and there is the 53% of people asked(both mass attenders and non mass attenders, both treated as separate groups.


On page 1 of the forum is this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056942968

StillWaters

lazygal wrote: »

Is she in a Catholic school? I presume she's 12. I don't think children of 12 know what they're getting into in terms of organised religion at 12. I know I didn't.

No, not a Catholic school. I think you will find that many 12 year olds who have been brought up to be questioning critical thinkers have a fair idea of what organised religion is about.

Most rational tolerant atheists bring their children up to form their own opinions, and do not foist their own beliefs or lack of upon them. That is what I have always striven to do. My daughter has made an informed decision and I support her in that.

ElleEm

StillWaters wrote: »

. My daughter has made an informed decision and I support her in that.

Did your daughter get a choice in her christening and communion too?

smcgiff

I've let my children figure out the tooth fairy, easter bunny and santa while actively encouraging belief. I've no doubt they'll come to the right conclusion about Catholicism, especially as they don't get encouragement.

It's as said above, it's the path of least resistance.

Freiheit

I object to my country being labelled a 'catholic country', actually the idea that religion developes morality is a complete misnomer. It's doctrine is directly opposed to many basic human right's. The Catholic church tells me who to love, not to use contraception, denies women autonomy over their own bodies, whenever there's an issue of civil liberties the catholic church opposes it. I think it can create seriously imbalanced children. For a decade or more I thought I was going to hell.

It is initiation into this institution that families celebrate, the farce is that many, most parent's even agree with much or most of what I've written, so what's it all about?. The path of least resistance, yes I understand that, but something needs to change, there's too many Catholic run schools and despite all of what I've outlined, and much of what I haven't, most parent's don't seem to care.

I've met people who go to mass and who professed not even to believe in God, I suppose they were raised with it, it was a social opportunity, a habit, a civic duty even though they don't believe in God, I joke you not, never mind all that goes with that.

shes_crazy

Freiheit wrote: »

I object to my country being labelled a 'catholic country', actually the idea that religion developes morality is a complete misnomer. It's doctrine is directly opposed to many basic human right's. The Catholic church tells me who to love, not to use contraception, denies women autonomy over their own bodies, whenever there's an issue of civil liberties the catholic church opposes it. I think it can create seriously imbalanced children. For a decade or more I thought I was going to hell.

It is initiation into this institution that families celebrate, the farce is that many, most parent's even agree with much or most of what I've written, so what's it all about?. The path of least resistance, yes I understand that, but something needs to change, there's too many Catholic run schools and despite all of what I've outlined, and much of what I haven't, most parent's don't seem to care.

I've met people who go to mass and who professed not even to believe in God, I suppose they were raised with it, it was a social opportunity, a habit, a civic duty even though they don't believe in God, I joke you not, never mind all that goes with that.

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

smcgiff

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

Only a theist could write this sentence. It is complete with belief and zero facts.

StillWaters

ElleEm wrote: »

Did your daughter get a choice in her christening and communion too?

Yes. You must be christened to make your confirmation. But you don't have to had made your communion. There are a few of her peers being christened for this purpose prior to their confirmation.

The Black Oil

jimd2 wrote: »

It's a Catholic country, the majority of people here are Catholic.

The next census needs to differentiate between regular Joe Catholics, and those who treat it as a lifestyle choice. Then perhaps we'll get some clearer indications about the 'majority'.

lazygal

Vatican City is a Catholic country. Ireland is a country with catholics. Well, catholic-ish people.

Galvasean

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens.

And if left unchecked, the Catholic Church would still view our kids as rape fodder. Small price for freedom eh?

StillWaters

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

Many of our Patriots were not Catholics. I don't understand your assertion that Catholicism gained us independence, can you elaborate?

magicbastarder

The Black Oil wrote: »

The next census needs to differentiate between regular Joe Catholics, and those who treat it as a lifestyle choice. Then perhaps we'll get some clearer indications about the 'majority'.

that'd be an interesting question on the census; 'are you really a catholic or do you just pretend you are to your mammy?'

Sierra 117

"It's totally cool, you can tell us the truth. Your mammy will never know"

magicbastarder

'if god told you to kill your firstborn, would you do it?'

Bannasidhe

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

Did you by any chance learn that in a school under the patronage of the RCC?


No - you should read up on our history if you believe the RCC was in anyway interested in genuine Irish independence. The RCC had one interest and one interest only - turning Westminster Rule into Rome Rule.

Yes, they did lay the foundations for this incarnation of the State. This failed State where women were incarcerated against their will, where child abusers were protected, where homosexuals had to appeal to Europe to get Ireland to stop threatening them criminal proceedings if they had sex, where women had to appeal to Europe to be granted equal status under the law etc etc etc.

krudler

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

It's also the institution that layed the foundations for industrial slave labour and child abuse.

endacl

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Irish_nationalists

It's perhaps not so black and white as you think. Not so 'them and us'.

Do you read much yourself?

Kiwi in IE

jimd2 wrote: »

If you dont want to practice religion then it s up to you. You wont find Catholics starting discussion threads slagging you off. Find something else to moan about.

Not really!

I can't choose that my young son dosn't practice religion because there are no secular schools in our area.

If I had a pregnancy with fatal foetal abnormalities I would be forced to either follow the rules of Catholicism on the subject, or go to another country to get appropriate medical treatment.

It is interesting that Catholics often seem unable to comprehend that non Catholics have any genuine complaint with the status of Catholicsim in this country. I would think it should be obvious to anyone.

Also if you are offended by people 'slagging off' Catholicism, an Atheism and Agnosticism forum is an odd choice. You must of known what you were going to get by the forum title surely?

Sarky

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You must of known what you were going to get by the forum title surely?

Maybe he's just addicted to feeling persecuted? Sort of like how some of the BDSM crowd get off on pain/obedience? I bet he's a sub.

Ghost Buster

StillWaters wrote: »

I don't believe in God. My daughter is makin her confirmation this year. This was entirely her choice. She was offered a coming of age type day out together with cash should she choose not to make it. I didn't want money to be the deciding factor in her decision.

I imagine most reasonable Atheists and Agnostics raise their children to be critical thinkers and to make their own minds up about religion.

But obviously you must have had the child baptised in the first place in order for her to get to this stage...so...?

Bannasidhe

Ghost Buster wrote: »

But obviously you must have had the child baptised in the first place in order for her to get to this stage...so...?

That one puzzles me too...

StillWaters

I answered upthread, she is being baptised the week before her confirmation. Quite a few of her classmates are.

lazygal

StillWaters wrote: »

I answered upthread, she is being baptised the week before her confirmation. Quite a few of her classmates are.

What are her reasons for wanting to be Catholic? Did you ever think 12 was a bit young to sign up to a religion?

Lucy8080

lazygal wrote: »

Sure its a lovely day out, isn't it? Sure, everyone else is doing it, they'll be gutted if they're left out. Ah, its different from our day, the priest is lovely and they teach them about being friends, that kinda thing. Sure why wouldn't you want them doing it? Ah, the grannies would be devastated if we didn't do it, they love the day out. It won't do them any harm, sure I don't agree with the church but, sure we have our own faith, you have to believe in something, don't you? Ah, they've been doing it in school, you couldn't back out when they've been hearing about it since they were in baby infants.

Etc, etc, etc. Never once have I heard any parents say they are including their children in the sacraments because they are important to them as a family raising children in Catholic doctrine. Its always a list of 'nice' bits about the church, wrapped up with tradition, the auld 'everyone else is doing it line' (because that's a good lesson to teach your children) and the nice memories they have of their own magic wafers.

I don't believe you go around asking Catholics such questions( maybe that's why you haven't heard the replies you seek). ergo , i find the thanks disingenuous! just my opinion.

I think I have another thread to reply to here...ill do that when i have more time.Was just skimming .

lazygal

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't believe you go around asking Catholics such questions( maybe that's why you haven't heard the replies you seek). ergo , i find the thanks disingenuous! just my opinion.

I think I have another thread to reply to here...ill do that when i have more time.Was just skimming .

I'm still pretty happy with my 27 thanks so far. And you're not correct - I've often asked parents why their children are doing communion/confirmation and never got 'because its important to us as Catholics' as an answer.

the culture of deference

jimd2 wrote: »

It's a Catholic country, the majority of people here are Catholic. Still a significant number of people attending weekly Mass.

If you dont want to practice religion then it s up to you. You wont find Catholics starting discussion threads slagging you off. Find something else to moan about.

Yawn............ in the old days you just killed those that disagreed.

Less than 35% of catholics surveyed said they went to mass once a week. Thats 35% of the 1,000 surveyed. The survey, conducted on behalf of the Association of Catholic Priests read more below

The Black Oil wrote: »

The next census needs to differentiate between regular Joe Catholics, and those who treat it as a lifestyle choice. Then perhaps we'll get some clearer indications about the 'majority'.

84.2% Proportion of the population – or 3,861,300 people – who said they were Catholic in the 2011 census.

1.2 million of these were in the 0-17 year old age bracket ie. children who didn't get to choose.

The MAMMY vote is 32%, without childrens votes only 54% are catholic.

Plastic catholics

87 per cent of Catholics surveyed by Amárach Research said priests should be allowed marry while 77 per cent said they were in favour of women being ordained as priests. The survey, conducted on behalf of the Association of Catholic Priests, found more than six out of ten people disagreed with the Catholic Church’s stance against homosexual sex.
survey of one thousand Catholics

http://www.thejournal.ie/three-quarters-of-catholics-say-church-teachings-on-sexuality-are-irrelevant-415226-Apr2012/

Last year a February opinion poll showed that 73 per cent public support for same-sex marriage.

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't believe you go around asking Catholics such questions( maybe that's why you haven't heard the replies you seek). ergo , i find the thanks disingenuous! just my opinion..

Most census catholics haven't a clue about religion, it's cultural, they wouldn't be able to answer.

Maybe we should start doing this

Lucy8080

maybe!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

shes_crazy wrote: »

If it wasn't for Catholicism, you and your parents/grandparents be subjects, not citizens. You really ought to read up on a bit of history and have a bit more respect for institutions that helped to lay the foundation stones for this State.

The Norman invasion of Ireland was supported by the Pope.

William III's conquest of Ireland, which resulted in the imposition of the Penal Laws, was supported by the Pope.

The Catholic hierarchy opposed the rebellion of 1798 (Led by Protestants) and all subsequent republican movements.

They also supported the British Whig party over the Irish Home Rule until it became obvious the latter (Founded by Protestant Issaac Butt and later led by fellow Protestant Charles Stewart Parnell) had the support of the Irish people.

Your comment is typical of the nonsense spouted by people ignorant of Irish history who merely push a Catholic agenda. Sadly telling you all of this will make little difference as you'll probably just fall back to the usual response such people have of sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending nothing happened.