Communions/confirmations, utter farce?

magicbastarder

article in the IT today about communion, written by someone whose daughter is not making it:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/religious-control-of-schools-is-neither-tolerant-nor-inclusive-1.1403265

i like this comment below:

The warriors of liberal democracy are at the gates and only the righteous indignation will stop them.. as Buddha says ' take the things that are yours and put pretty little flowers on them and make them all nice and stuff'. The warriors of liberal democracy have taken the non eating of fish on Fridays as a their doctrine for the ages... it is an example of what can happen with secularism. One must resist long wavy hair in all forms and challenge what is known and unknown - fight against the warriors of liberal democracy and make sure the little ones can get their communion money.

Birroc

Freiheit wrote: »

Parents who don't believe in God, those who do or aren't sure usually don't do what the church preaches. Yet they are celebrating their progeny being initiated into this discredited institution. What's it all about?

We had a daughter in communion year this year but we opted out. I was very surprised at how incredulous people were at our decision. A distinct lack of respect too. I think most of them have their head in the sand when it comes to religion and beliefs. Anyway thank God it's over now!

shes_crazy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

The Norman invasion of Ireland was supported by the Pope.

William III's conquest of Ireland, which resulted in the imposition of the Penal Laws, was supported by the Pope.

The Catholic hierarchy opposed the rebellion of 1798 (Led by Protestants) and all subsequent republican movements.

They also supported the British Whig party over the Irish Home Rule until it became obvious the latter (Founded by Protestant Issaac Butt and later led by fellow Protestant Charles Stewart Parnell) had the support of the Irish people.

Your comment is typical of the nonsense spouted by people ignorant of Irish history who merely push a Catholic agenda. Sadly telling you all of this will make little difference as you'll probably just fall back to the usual response such people have of sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending nothing happened.

So you're saying that Catholicism had no role in gaining independence from Britain?!

Birroc

shes_crazy wrote: »

So you're saying that Catholicism had no role in gaining independence from Britain?!

No he isn't. He is saying that the Catholic Church will usually side with the winning team.

legspin

Birroc wrote: »

No he isn't. He is saying that the Catholic Church will usually side with the winning team.

'God is on the side with the big battalions.' - Napoleon

'God is not on the side with the big battalions, but those that shoot best'. - Voltaire

robindch

Birroc wrote: »

He is saying that the Catholic Church will usually side with the winning team.

Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived

- Oscar Wilde.

joseph brand

the culture of deference wrote: »

Yawn............ in the old days you just killed those that disagreed.

84.2% Proportion of the population – or 3,861,300 people – who said they were Catholic in the 2011 census.

1.2 million of these were in the 0-17 year old age bracket ie. children who didn't get to choose.

The MAMMY vote is 32%, without childrens votes only 54% are catholic.

Plastic catholics

Most census catholics haven't a clue about religion, it's cultural, they wouldn't be able to answer.

Maybe we should start doing this

Few weeks ago I asked my mam, (who proudly prays every single night), if she could tell me the significance of the communion or confirmation. After a lot of humming and hawing she told me she hadn't a clue. Which is understandable since she's religious, and her three children have made their c & c.

D' mother: "Ah sure everybody did it, it's just done. . . . "

The above quote from mammy always reminds me of this image:

Turtwig

^ ^ ^ Such a study never happened as far as I know.

Sarky

Somebody give me funding and a barrel full of monkeys, and I'll make it happen.

Solair

Maybe schools should introduce a similar concept to the "junior prom" in the US so that there was a chance for everyone to get involved in a big dressed up event for teens but one that's not sleazy and not exclusive to one religious group?

Then maybe allow the communion and confirmation thing to take its more appropriate place as a somber, formal religious service that occurs on your own time and not in the school environment.

I don't think the current setup is good from either a secular or catholic point if view.

Rev Hellfire

Doesn't this stuff happen on a weekend anyway.

The only 'issue' is the preparation done in school time, not sure how having a dance or something helps.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

shes_crazy wrote: »

So you're saying that Catholicism had no role in gaining independence from Britain?!

No.....

Birroc wrote: »

No he isn't. He is saying that the Catholic Church will usually side with the winning team.

Cheers for that Birroc, you summed it up rather well.

I don't doubt that Catholicism had some part in Ireland's struggle for independence but to suggest that if it wasn't for Catholicism we would be under British rule is almost laughable. Indeed the only reason I'm not laughing at your ignorance is that so many other Irish people would believe you.

eyescreamcone

Religion in schools is a big terrorist training ground waiting to happen.
There I said it.

While we are arguing about communions and confirmations, the real issue is that we are funding "religious ethos" in schools.
This wasn't a major problem when everyone was a Catholic and okay there were a few Prods but they generally kept themselves quiet.

We are now funding Muslims to have their own schools.
So our state policy now is to keep Muslim kids away from ours - causing a certain ghettoisation and isolation of Muslims.

Down the road when the population of Muslims continue to rise and we ensure they don't mix with us by providing separate schools for them - we will reap what we sow.

We should keep all religion out of our state funded schools.

By ensuring that children of all religions and none grow up, play, and learn together we might avoid what is coming if we maintain the status quo.

It might not be politically correct but that is my opinion.

PopePalpatine

Sarky wrote: »

Somebody give me funding and a barrel full of monkeys, and I'll make it happen.

Well, there's always Kickstarter.

Sarky

Stretch goal 1: outfit all the monkeys in butler costumes.

PopePalpatine

How about bowler hats?

Sarky

I'm not looking to make a monkey re-enactment of Clockwork Oran- Hey, that's a way better idea!

Hotblack Desiato

magicbastarder wrote: »

article in the IT today about communion, written by someone whose daughter is not making it:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/religious-control-of-schools-is-neither-tolerant-nor-inclusive-1.1403265

i like this comment below:

The warriors of liberal democracy are at the gates and only the righteous indignation will stop them.. as Buddha says ' take the things that are yours and put pretty little flowers on them and make them all nice and stuff'. The warriors of liberal democracy have taken the non eating of fish on Fridays as a their doctrine for the ages... it is an example of what can happen with secularism. One must resist long wavy hair in all forms and challenge what is known and unknown - fight against the warriors of liberal democracy and make sure the little ones can get their communion money.

Pretty sure that commenter was set up to lampoon another one on the IT (who does go on about the supposed evils of 'liberal democracy' ALL the time.)

eyescreamcone wrote: »

We are now funding Muslims to have their own schools.
So our state policy now is to keep Muslim kids away from ours - causing a certain ghettoisation and isolation of Muslims.

Not only does current policy cause ghettoisation (remember the 'immigrant school' in north Dublin?) it is also extremely wasteful of resources and diminishes the employment prospects of non-Catholic teachers.

Hotblack Desiato

StillWaters wrote: »

No, not a Catholic school. I think you will find that many 12 year olds who have been brought up to be questioning critical thinkers have a fair idea of what organised religion is about.

Most rational tolerant atheists bring their children up to form their own opinions, and do not foist their own beliefs or lack of upon them. That is what I have always striven to do. My daughter has made an informed decision and I support her in that.

I don't get this position at all.
Religion takes advantage of impressionable minds, which is the whole reason the RCC imposes its ceremonies on children as young as possible, and why it values conformity and attacks individual thought on any issue.
I absolutely will protest against anyone attempting to get my children to take part in a religion of any kind. 12 is not old enough to make up one's own mind about sex, drugs, alcohol, etc, or even educational choices, how on earth anyone can think a 12 year old can make an informed rational decision on making what is supposedly a lifetime commitment to a religion beats me.
When the subject arises with my kids I won't hold back on what I think about religions and I will make no apologies for doing so.

Magenta

jimd2 wrote: »

if you have a recent thread that makes your point better on the Catholics slagging off non Catholics then post a link. We are all big boys here.

There are women here too, you know. I know that your religion treats us as second-class citizens and sees us as little more than baby vessels, but we do at least deserve to be acknowledged.

Birroc

ninja900 wrote: »

Religion takes advantage of impressionable minds, which is the whole reason the RCC imposes its ceremonies on children as young as possible, and why it values conformity and attacks individual thought on any issue.
I absolutely will protest against anyone attempting to get my children to take part in a religion of any kind. 12 is not old enough to make up one's own mind about sex, drugs, alcohol, etc, or even educational choices, how on earth anyone can think a 12 year old can make an informed rational decision on making what is supposedly a lifetime commitment to a religion beats me.
When the subject arises with my kids I won't hold back on what I think about religions and I will make no apologies for doing so.

+1

shes_crazy

ninja900 wrote: »

I don't get this position at all.
Religion takes advantage of impressionable minds, which is the whole reason the RCC imposes its ceremonies on children as young as possible, and why it values conformity and attacks individual thought on any issue.
I absolutely will protest against anyone attempting to get my children to take part in a religion of any kind. 12 is not old enough to make up one's own mind about sex, drugs, alcohol, etc, or even educational choices, how on earth anyone can think a 12 year old can make an informed rational decision on making what is supposedly a lifetime commitment to a religion beats me.
When the subject arises with my kids I won't hold back on what I think about religions and I will make no apologies for doing so.

Did you give your child a name? (that is, if you have children)

Why don't you allow your child to reach 18 before making a "lifetime commitment" such as choosing their name?

Birroc

shes_crazy wrote: »

Did you give your child a name? (that is, if you have children)

Why don't you allow your child to reach 18 before making a "lifetime commitment" such as choosing their name?

The words "clutch" and "straw" spring to mind...:D

Galwayguy35

A guy I used to work with is an atheist and made no secret of the fact that he didn't believe in God and all Catholics were paedo supporters etc.

Anyway a while ago I log on to Facebook and there he is with his kid outside a Church on Communion day.

So in my book he is nothing but a hypocrite, if you don't believe in God fair enough but stay away from ceromonies that mean nothing to you.

And making an excuse that the kid would feel left out is a cop out.

otto_26

lazygal wrote: »

Sure its a lovely day out, isn't it? Sure, everyone else is doing it, they'll be gutted if they're left out. Ah, its different from our day, the priest is lovely and they teach them about being friends, that kinda thing. Sure why wouldn't you want them doing it? Ah, the grannies would be devastated if we didn't do it, they love the day out. It won't do them any harm, sure I don't agree with the church but, sure we have our own faith, you have to believe in something, don't you? Ah, they've been doing it in school, you couldn't back out when they've been hearing about it since they were in baby infants.

Etc, etc, etc. Never once have I heard any parents say they are including their children in the sacraments because they are important to them as a family raising children in Catholic doctrine. Its always a list of 'nice' bits about the church, wrapped up with tradition, the auld 'everyone else is doing it line' (because that's a good lesson to teach your children) and the nice memories they have of their own magic wafers.

I do. So at least now you have heard it once.

Birroc

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So in my book he is nothing but a hypocrite, if you don't believe in God fair enough but stay away from ceromonies that mean nothing to you.

Yes he is a complete hypocrite. And Ireland is absolutely full of them. It's pathetic. Nation of sheep.

otto_26

Birroc wrote: »

Yes he is a complete hypocrite. And Ireland is absolutely full of them. It's pathetic. Nation of sheep.

Ya hate all those hypocrites that celebrate Christmas and they try to justify celebrating Christmas by saying it's not about the birth of Jesus to them, so that's why it's OK for them to celebrate the religious event.

Turtwig

otto_26 wrote: »

Ya hate all those hypocrites that celebrate Christmas and they try to justify celebrating Christmas by saying it's not about the birth of Jesus to them, so that's why it's OK for them to celebrate the religious event.

This may just be the earliest "stealing Christmas" related comment yet.

PopePalpatine

Tell me otto, what is your alternative name for Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday?

Also, as of 2010 80% of non-Christians in the USA celebrate Christmas.

otto_26

Jernal wrote: »

This may just be the earliest "stealing Christmas" related comment yet.

My post isn't about stealing it's about hypocrites.

otto_26

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Also, as of 2010 80% of non-Christians in the USA celebrate Christmas.

Ya I know that was my point.

Delirium

Jernal wrote: »

This may just be the earliest "stealing Christmas" related comment yet.

seems to be earlier every year :pac:

otto_26

Birroc wrote: »

Yes he is a complete hypocrite. And Ireland is absolutely full of them. It's pathetic. Nation of sheep.

.

Galvasean

I think otto is trying to imply that atheists shouldn't enjoy themselves at Christmas for fear of making hypocrites of themselves. It's a bit of an apples and oranges fallacy to be honest. Presents at Christmas =/= Indoctrinating one's kids into a specific religion.

Galvasean

Actually, what the hell am I doing having this discussion?
IT'S NOT EVEN JUNE YET!!!!

Hotblack Desiato

shes_crazy wrote: »

Did you give your child a name? (that is, if you have children)

Why don't you allow your child to reach 18 before making a "lifetime commitment" such as choosing their name?

Yes I did. If either of my kids decide they really don't like their name, when they reach adulthood it's a lot easier to change it than it is to officially leave the Roman Catholic Church

Hotblack Desiato

otto_26 wrote: »

Ya hate all those hypocrites that celebrate Christmas and they try to justify celebrating Christmas by saying it's not about the birth of Jesus to them, so that's why it's OK for them to celebrate the religious event.

I celebrate mid-winter, as humans have done for many thousands of years

Kiwi in IE

I love Christmas. For me it as about spending time with family and friends, showing appreciation with gifts and preparing lovely food. It is a day where families come together and our family celebrates that. The fact we have each other. Has nothing to do with Christianity for us. I adore Christmas Trees, decorating the house, Santa coming etc. I don't care that Christians place religious significance on the day at all. We all have holidays and dinners at each others houses to celebrate friends and family.

I don't know if I've even told my son that Christians think it's Jesus birthday. Might have mentioned it, but he wouldn't care a less so long as Santa is coming. I like Santa because it's a fairytale full of magic, but unlike religion children are expected to realise the truth at a certain age.

Red Pepper

otto_26 wrote: »

Ya hate all those hypocrites that celebrate Christmas and they try to justify celebrating Christmas by saying it's not about the birth of Jesus to them, so that's why it's OK for them to celebrate the religious event.

Do you celebrate the pagan Halloween?

Galvasean

Red Pepper wrote: »

Do you celebrate the pagan Halloween?

Or more to the point, the Pagan practice of putting up a tree in your house and decorating it as the Bible strictly forbids...

Sarky

Galvasean wrote: »

Actually, what the hell am I doing having this discussion?
IT'S NOT EVEN JUNE YET!!!!

That's how they get you, Jernal, they keep pushing for more and more ridiculous scenarios until before you know it you're talking about the Christmas ten years from now instead of the next one.

Those religious folks, they're a wily bunch, you couldn't be up to them at all at all.

Galvasean

Sarky wrote: »

That's how they get you, Jernal,

I'm not Jernal, but thanks for implying a sense of gravitas.

Bannasidhe

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm not Jernal, but thanks for implying a sense of gravitas.

Linky?


:pac:

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm not Jernal, but thanks for implying a sense of gravitas.

I don't even know what you mean by this.

Sarky

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm not Jernal, but thanks for implying a sense of gravitas.

You can't prove that you're NOT Jernal!


Lousy confusing mobile site with its ugly non-Cloud skin...

Turtwig

Sarky wrote: »

You can't prove that you're NOT Jernal!


Lousy confusing mobile site with its ugly non-Cloud skin...

Oh indeed, it's very tough, our awesomeness is immeasurable and that also makes us indistinguishable at times.
Sean, let me say it here and now. You, sir, are awesome!

shes_crazy

Galvasean wrote: »

Or more to the point, the Pagan practice of putting up a tree in your house and decorating it as the Bible strictly forbids...

You do realise that Christianity successfully conquered paganism and appropriated its festivals for a greater purpose?

Bannasidhe

shes_crazy wrote: »

You do realise that Christianity successfully conquered paganism and appropriated its festivals for a greater purpose?

Has it? Or has the paganism at the heart of Christianity subverted it?


Btw 'pagan' comes from the Latin paganii meaning forest dwellers in the same way as the word 'culchi' comes from Coillte (forest). It just means people who live outside settlements like villages/towns/cities.

endacl

shes_crazy wrote: »

You do realise that Christianity successfully conquered paganism and appropriated its festivals for a greater purpose?

Good man. Bring that crazy ON!

Mardy Bum

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Has it? Or has the paganism at the heart of Christianity subverted it?

Dancing at Lughnasa is a brilliant exploration of this.