Are Ireland's 17,600 Nigerian residents able to send home 468 M last year???

Cavehill Red

sock puppet wrote: »

That's not raw data. Thw diaspora population numbers are mentioned of course, how else would they estimate remittances. As I have explained previously, the remittances from Ireland to Nigeria are calculated by summing up the total remittances to Nigeria from all countries and then dividing it among every other country in the world based on their GNI and the number of Nigerians living there.

So any country with the same income as Ireland would be modelled as having sent back exactly the same amount of money per head to Nigeria.

Um, no. The Nigerian population in China is many times the size of that in Ireland yet the remittance from China to Nigeria is ... zero.
So, no. That's NOT their methodology.

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Um, no. The Nigerian population in China is many times the size of that in Ireland yet the remittance from China to Nigeria is ... zero.
So, no. That's NOT their methodology.

It is very much their methodology, and you can look it up for yourself if you wish. The authors even go so far as to identify themselves the problems with the assumptions they built into the model.

From the report:

We have calculated bilateral remittances by allocating remittances received by each developing country among the countries of destination of its migrant nationals. We use three different allocation rules: (i) weights based on migrant stocks abroad; (ii) weights based on migrant incomes, proxied by migrant stocks multiplied by per capita income in the destination countries; and (iii) weights that take into account migrants’ incomes abroad as well as source-country incomes

Problems with Method (i):

A shortcoming of this method is that it assumes that each migrant sends the same amount of remittances regardless of where she lives and no matter what her income in the host country. The large variance of incomes across migrant-receiving countries (and even across countries within each income group) limits the usefulness of this method.

Problems with Method (ii):

Although this method is superior to the first one, as it takes into account both migrant stocks and the average income of the country where the migrant resides, it assumes that each migrant sends a fixed share of her income, regardless of the level of that income or the needs of the family back home.

Problems with Method (iii):

The average remittance sent by a migrant in destination country j (rij) is modeled as a function of the per capita income of the migrant-sending country and the host country.

Ideally, the migrants’ income should be taken from household survey data; but in the absence of such data, we use per capita GNI in the host country as a proxy for the migrant’s income abroad and per capita GNI in the sending country as a proxy for the dependent household’s income

So the remittance estimates are based on the per capita income in Ireland. But we know that Nigerian unemployment is higher than native unemployment, and labor market participation rates are lower. So these figures are going to be skewed - big time.

The level of remittances is assumed to increase with the level of host country income, but at a decreasing rate

Again, as Irish income levels increased in the boom years, this model would assume that Nigerian remittance levels would increase as well - but Nigerians are relatively economically inactive - as you and many others have pointed out on this thread. The assumptions in the model are faulty, particularly when it comes to the unusual situation of Nigerians in Ireland who are, for a variety of reasons, not economically active.

Norwesterner

These payments sent abroad are all registered and I.D must be shown and photocopied.
Welfare investigators should demand this information and compare it with the data of benefit claimants.
Anyone sending money abroad should pay it back through future payments.

southsiderosie

Norwesterner wrote: »

These payments sent abroad are all registered and I.D must be shown and photocopied.
Welfare investigators should demand this information and compare it with the data of benefit claimants.
Anyone sending money abroad should pay it back through future payments.

Data on payments actually sent abroad were not used in the World Bank report quoted in the Indo article.

Norwesterner

southsiderosie wrote: »

Data on payments actually sent abroad were not used in the World Bank report quoted in the Indo article.

I didn't say it was.
i'm saying that wired money is registered for security reasons and catalogued.
I read recently that Social welfare was using passenger flight lists to investigate welfarfe fraud...just suggesting they should do the same with wired money records.

southsiderosie

Norwesterner wrote: »

I didn't say it was.
i'm saying that wired money is registered for security reasons and catalogued.
I read recently that Social welfare was using passenger flight lists to investigate welfarfe fraud...just suggesting they should do the same with wired money records.

So nobody on social welfare should be sending money out of the country at all? Or it should only be in limited amounts?

Cavehill Red

Norwesterner wrote: »

I didn't say it was.
i'm saying that wired money is registered for security reasons and catalogued.
I read recently that Social welfare was using passenger flight lists to investigate welfarfe fraud...just suggesting they should do the same with wired money records.

They've been doing so and caught over 100 people in one month already.
As for tracking wired money, there was some discussion of that when Western Union remittance slips totalling, I think, about 20,000 euro, were discovered at the M50 Roma camp. It came to nothing then. Given the anti-money laundering legislation now, though, I don't see what the objection could be.

Cavehill Red

southsiderosie wrote: »

It is very much their methodology, and you can look it up for yourself if you wish.

Explain the Chinese figure then.

Wompa1

wolfpawnat wrote: »

They multi-job a lot of the time, I am sure their incomes are higher than your usual low income job (which yes, they tend to work) as a result. I just wonder are these figures accurate.

I, like any other person here no doubt, would like to see if it is true, and if it is, how it is happening and is it legal, if not, then of course there should be consequences.

Don't forget to account for how many are here claiming asylum. They are legally not allowed to work....

Death and Taxes wrote: »

Jaysus H Christ!
Didn't hear people calling for it be illegal when the boot was on the other foot in the 50's and the 80's.

If it's money that has been earned, you've paid your income tax on it and you pay whatever levies are in place for sending large amounts of money across international borders than it's not a problem. Do you think many Irish people were sending huge sums of money home? The stats in this story suggest a large sum of money is being exchanged. Is this being taxed on income as well as for being sent across borders?

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Explain the Chinese figure then.

You are the one who claimed that there are a large number of Nigerians in China. I would actually assume that the number was quite low: I am not familiar with the mainland figures, but in Hong Kong, the Nigerians there are traders, not residents, and money they send to and from would get counted in the trade figures, not as remittances.

Do you have actual data on the number of resident Nigerian workers in mainland China, as counted by the Chinese government? That figure would probably offer a clue as to why the remittance numbers are below a million annually...and that still only gives you a clue, because you really need specific information on actual behavior to have an accurate tally of remittances.

Nodin

beercr8te wrote: »

It's time they were sent back home, they do not belong here!

Why?

Cavehill Red

southsiderosie wrote: »

You are the one who claimed that there are a large number of Nigerians in China. I would actually assume that the number was quite low: I am not familiar with the mainland figures, but in Hong Kong, the Nigerians there are traders, not residents, and money they send to and from would get counted in the trade figures, not as remittances.

Do you have actual data on the number of resident Nigerian workers in mainland China, as counted by the Chinese government? That figure would probably offer a clue as to why the remittance numbers are below a million annually.

Chinese government estimate between 100,000 and 200,000, figures being vague due to the large number of them who outstay visas and operate in the black economy. That doesn't include Hong Kong and Macau either, where there are tens of thousands more, but does include Guangzhou where Nigerians make up the bulk of the population of 'Little Africa'.
It strikes me, of course, that some of the employed Nigerians here in Ireland are also traders, so presumably their remittances aren't counted either and are in addition to the figures mentioned.

Norwesterner

southsiderosie wrote: »

So nobody on social welfare should be sending money out of the country at all? Or it should only be in limited amounts?

Sweet Jesus.
The amount paid is calculated to allow a basic living standard.
If unemployed folk are regularly sending money abroad it would suggest either.
A. They have other sources of income...or
B.Welfare is too generous.

Are you so terrified of the Mc Carthey era -like atmosphere of being labelled a racist, that you'd object to fraud investigation?

Aboard

I live abroad, about 80k hits my bank in Ireland annually - not doing anything illegal - not the highest paid either. This would be similar for other nationalities across the world so I don't see your problem. Some people will run businesses and send larger sums of money, millions etc, others will have nothing so therefore will send nothing. Averages...are averages.

southsiderosie

Norwesterner wrote: »

Sweet Jesus.
The amount paid is calculated to allow a basic living standard.
If unemployed folk are regularly sending money abroad it would suggest either.
A. They have other sources of income...or
B.Welfare is too generous.

Are you so terrified of the Mc Carthey era -like atmosphere of being labelled a racist, that you'd object to fraud investigation?

Fraud may be likely if someone was sending home 1000 quid a month while on the dole. But 100 quid - not so much - that is saving 25 a week, which is doable if you live the way most migrant workers live (multiple people in a house; don't eat out or socialize much outside of home; used to sending home over half their take-home pay).

I could give a hoot about being considered a racist, and frankly, I am more terrified about how easy it is to whip up hysteria around highly questionable figures - hysteria that can lead to bad policies that affect everyone, not just boogeyman immigrant communities. Lord knows if I still lived in Ireland, I would want to be able to move money out of the country quickly, given all of the random taxes and shady bank deals that have happened over the last several years!

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Chinese government estimate between 100,000 and 200,000, figures being vague due to the large number of them who outstay visas and operate in the black economy. That doesn't include Hong Kong and Macau either, where there are tens of thousands more, but does include Guangzhou where Nigerians make up the bulk of the population of 'Little Africa'.
It strikes me, of course, that some of the employed Nigerians here in Ireland are also traders, so presumably their remittances aren't counted either and are in addition to the figures mentioned.

If there aren't official figures, then they aren't going to show up in the World Bank data. There are clear official figures on the Nigerians in Ireland, and that is what the World Bank is working with.

I have to go to bed, but if the Chinese government doesn't actually report this data officially, it is just going to go into the dataset as a null case.

Norwesterner

southsiderosie wrote: »

Fraud may be likely if someone was sending home 1000 quid a month while on the dole. But 100 quid - not so much - that is saving 25 a week, which is doable if you live the way most migrant workers live (multiple people in a house; don't eat out or socialize much outside of home; used to sending home over half their take-home pay).

I could give a hoot about being considered a racist, and frankly, I am more terrified about how easy it is to whip up hysteria around highly questionable figures - hysteria that can lead to bad policies that affect everyone, not just boogeyman immigrant communities. Lord knows if I still lived in Ireland, I would want to be able to move money out of the country quickly, given all of the random taxes and shady bank deals that have happened over the last several years!

Innocent people have nothing to fear from the fraud squad combing over wired money receipts.
It makes sense these days

SicklySweet

If i was working abroad, my money would of course go towards my parents. And hell. Im Irish! Guess that makes me African/Eastern Euro etc etc

jack presley

What people seem to be ignoring is that a good chunk of the money probably isn't being sent by Nigerians but by Irish people who received an email about Prince Nakabu's billions and they're sending a few thousand over to his concerned solicitor in Lagos to process the payment

Wompa1

Aboard wrote: »

I live abroad, about 80k hits my bank in Ireland annually - not doing anything illegal - not the highest paid either. This would be similar for other nationalities across the world so I don't see your problem. Some people will run businesses and send larger sums of money, millions etc, others will have nothing so therefore will send nothing. Averages...are averages.

Do you declare that you transfer the money out of the country you reside in?

Aboard

My salary is paid into my irish bank account

Leftist

Montroseee wrote: »

Before anyone says this a foreigner bashing thread, it is not.

I think OP started a foreigners filling our prisons thread last week and included the same disclaimer.

Note: the disclaimer doesn't actually mean anything. Especially when it's contradictory.

Feel sorry for the foreigners when there are people like OP around, sitting in their homes spreading sh!te about, trying to build up animosity.

Aboard

I don't understand why people are so worried still about foreign nationals, we are now the foreign nationals in all the countries we have immigrated to, all the money we send home and the benefit it is having to our families and banks balance sheets far out weighs the small amount leaving the country as it really is small in comparison. Also all the countries I've worked in overseas I've gotten no animosity for being there or working there and I've seen so much animosity to foreign nationals at home. It's embarrassing.

Around 400k people have left Ireland, imagine how much we are sending back home, paying down loans, saving, coming back and spending, helping to keep the economy ticking over.

Leftist

Aboard wrote: »

I don't understand why people are so worried still about foreign nationals, we are now the foreign nationals in all the countries we have immigrated to, all the money we send home and the benefit it is having to our families and banks balance sheets far out weighs the small amount leaving the country as it really is small in comparison. Also all the countries I've worked in overseas I've gotten no animosity for being there or working there and I've seen so much animosity to foreign nationals at home. It's embarrassing.

well said abroad. A lot of hypocrisy towards emigrants. It's one of the most pathetic sights in irish culture.

Dyr

Aboard wrote: »

I don't understand why people are so worried still about foreign nationals, we are now the foreign nationals in all the countries we have immigrated to, all the money we send home and the benefit it is having to our families and banks balance sheets far out weighs the small amount leaving the country as it really is small in comparison. Also all the countries I've worked in overseas I've gotten no animosity for being there or working there and I've seen so much animosity to foreign nationals at home. It's embarrassing.

Around 400k people have left Ireland, imagine how much we are sending back home, paying down loans, saving, coming back and spending, helping to keep the economy ticking over.

name the countries you worked in, good man

Aboard

Bambi wrote: »

name the countries you worked in, good man

Asia & Pacific, based in the pacific but my role is regional

Dyr

Aboard wrote: »

Asia & Pacific, based in the pacific but my role is regional

yeah, asia and pacific aint countries

Aboard

I'm not going to list out countries what is the point, you know what countries are in Asia and in the Pacific.

mathie

Aboard wrote: »

Asia & Pacific, based in the pacific but my role is regional

Can you be more pacific?

Make It Happen 968

Aboard wrote: »

I don't understand why people are so worried still about foreign nationals, we are now the foreign nationals in all the countries we have immigrated to, all the money we send home and the benefit it is having to our families and banks balance sheets far out weighs the small amount leaving the country as it really is small in comparison. Also all the countries I've worked in overseas I've gotten no animosity for being there or working there and I've seen so much animosity to foreign nationals at home. It's embarrassing.

Around 400k people have left Ireland, imagine how much we are sending back home, paying down loans, saving, coming back and spending, helping to keep the economy ticking over.

Bollock$
Every nation has their share of xenophobia..just need to open your eyes.

Leftist

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

Bollock$
Every nation has their share of xenophobia..just need to open your eyes.

Can't read what he/she wrote? He/she's not recieved any animosity. Wasn't even suggested that it doesn't exist. Stupid comment tbh.

there's more annoyance and cynisism to his/her comment that this one:

beercr8te wrote: »

It's time they were sent back home, they do not belong here!

force eleven

Many of them have children, who were born here, will be educated here, and hopefully stay and work here. Their tax contribution will mitigate the outgoings now over a long period. I'm thinking of my retirement, we need as many children as possible to work in 20 or 25 years time to deal with a huge impending crisis.

PizzamanIRL

wolfpawnat wrote: »

As opposed to what we Irish have been doing since the 1840's???? We can hardly fling dirt at anyone else for doing it when we have been doing it for 170 odd years. Hell there are Irish people abroad working at them moment sending money home from wherever they are!

This!

chopperbyrne

I think you'll find it's just a lot of people helping out a Nigerian prince and billions will come back in to the country soon.

Death and Taxes

beercr8te wrote: »

It's time they were sent back home, they do not belong here!

Lucky for us the British,Americans, Canadians, Australians etc are not saying that about our emigrants!

Montroseee

A tax on remittances should be introduced. As I said previously, they had a similar problem in France with large amounts leaving the country and introduced a tax on it. Little faith in our incompetents to do so unfortunately.

Aboard

Leftist wrote: »

Can't read what he/she wrote? He/she's not recieved any animosity. Wasn't even suggested that it doesn't exist. Stupid comment tbh.

there's more annoyance and cynisism to his/her comment that this one:

Exactly I was just bringing some personal experiences into the conversation. I'm living abroad nearly 3years, sending a lot of money back home, and have not found any prejudice towards me in any country I am working in. If myself and the 400k irish who have left home in the last 5years weren't doing this our economy would be in an even worse state. I plan to move home eventually buy a house, I've no opportunities at home at the moment but have many where I am now. Very similar to people who came to Ireland to work in the past, many of whom have also left.

desertcircus

Montroseee wrote: »

A tax on remittances should be introduced. As I said previously, they had a similar problem in France with large amounts leaving the country and introduced a tax on it. Little faith in our incompetents to do so unfortunately.

I'm still not convinced by this story. Haven't yet taken a look at the deeper details, but from initial investigation that headline figure includes salaries paid by companies in Ireland to Irish nationals working in Nigeria - curious to see the split and other details, particularly since the total for worker's remittances going out from Ireland in 2011 is listed as being about 800m total.

Montroseee

Aboard wrote: »

Exactly I was just bringing some personal experiences into the conversation. I'm living abroad nearly 3years, sending a lot of money back home, and have not found any prejudice towards me in any country I am working in. If myself and the 400k irish who have left home in the last 5years weren't doing this our economy would be in an even worse state. I plan to move home eventually buy a house, I've no opportunities at home at the moment but have many where I am now. Very similar to people who came to Ireland to work in the past, many of whom have also left.

It's the amount of cash per person being sent out of the country, taking into account their high unemployment rate.

Aboard

Montroseee wrote: »

It's the amount of cash per person being sent out of the country, taking into account their high unemployment rate.

I'm just talking from the other side Irish people sending money back home which if Australia or Canada for instance looked at the figure would be higher than what's being discussed. We are the Nigerians, Polish etc etc of the rest of the world and in my experience I don't receive any prejudice unlike what I see people experiencing at home.

Montroseee

southsiderosie wrote: »

If there aren't official figures, then they aren't going to show up in the World Bank data. There are clear official figures on the Nigerians in Ireland, and that is what the World Bank is working with.

I have to go to bed, but if the Chinese government doesn't actually report this data officially, it is just going to go into the dataset as a null case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrJJMCccLxU = Listen to the first 10 seconds of this video.


:rolleyes: Now tell us what qualifies you to dismiss these figures and to take them with 'a grain of salt.' These models are devised by financial experts and top economists, but no lets take your side instead :pac:.

hooradiation

Aboard wrote: »

Around 400k people have left Ireland, imagine how much we are sending back home, paying down loans, saving, coming back and spending, helping to keep the economy ticking over.

Shhh, as this thread demonstrates it's ok when white people do it.
(seeing as nobody gives half a fuck about the more than €529m that's going to Britain)

Gatling

hooradiation wrote: »

Shhh, as this thread demonstrates it's ok when white people do it.
(seeing as nobody gives half a fuck about the more than €529m that's going to Britain)

Where's did it say white people in that ,
Don't care if there purple with yellow polka dots there's something very wrong going on

hooradiation

Gatling wrote: »

Where's did it say white people in that ,
Don't care if there purple with yellow polka dots there's something very wrong going on

Not really no.

But seeing as people are so incensed about what other people do with their own money why is this thread fixated on Nigeria when our nearest neighbor sees even more money sent from these shores?
Or why nobody thinks it's bad that the Irish sent home 750m, dwarfing both these figures?

Is it because people who think this is an issue are full of shit? All signs points to yes.

desertcircus

I'm going to say this once, and say it very clearly: this article is utterly without foundation. The figures quoted are not the figures for workers' remittances home; they are the figures for remittances, payment of salary to other countries, and transfers of emigrants. There is nothing whatsoever in the World Bank data to support the contention that Nigerian immigrants are sending home 462m a year; it simply doesn't tell us the figure. There is zero basis for these claims. I'm not surprised the Indo published such garbage, but it's disappointing to see people buying it.

Gatling

With regards to Nigerians 50% are unemployed so how's does it account for €568 million being transferred to there from here ,

Hootanany

iramen wrote: »

If they ernd it de can do wath de wanth with it dont be jellas of them

Montroseee

desertcircus wrote: »

I'm going to say this once, and say it very clearly: this article is utterly without foundation. The figures quoted are not the figures for workers' remittances home; they are the figures for remittances, payment of salary to other countries, and transfers of emigrants. There is nothing whatsoever in the World Bank data to support the contention that Nigerian immigrants are sending home 462m a year; it simply doesn't tell us the figure. There is zero basis for these claims. I'm not surprised the Indo published such garbage, but it's disappointing to see people buying it.

The Indo is not the rag you are trying to make it out to be. It is reputable, factual and non-biased source :rolleyes:.

gallag

hooradiation wrote: »

Not really no.

But seeing as people are so incensed about what other people do with their own money why is this thread fixated on Nigeria when our nearest neighbor sees even more money sent from these shores?
Or why nobody thinks it's bad that the Irish sent home 750m, dwarfing both these figures?

Is it because people who think this is an issue are full of shit? All signs points to yes.

Can you not see the difference in the money going to the U.K and the money going to Nigeria? Population size? British pensioners? The ammount that comes into the irish economy from both these country's? Average salaries?
the go to reaction is to shout "racist" but its simply the numbers are alarming and warrants further investigation, why do the pc brigade want to stifle any critical analysis.

southsiderosie

Montroseee wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrJJMCccLxU = Listen to the first 10 seconds of this video.


:rolleyes: Now tell us what qualifies you to dismiss these figures and to take them with 'a grain of salt.' These models are devised by financial experts and top economists, but no lets take your side instead :pac:.

I'm not going to post my credentials in AH, of all places. But sometimes, reading carefully and using a bit of common sense is all you really need to question how and where figures are coming from. And given that the report itself highlights some of the deficiencies in the methods, I don't think your skepticism and eye-rolling is warranted - have you actually bothered to read through the report?