Some questions about starting out with my first Aquarium

jasonb

Hi there,

I'm thinking of getting an aquarium so I've been spending a few days doing some research. I'm in no rush really, and I like to know what I'm getting into, and make sure I'm not making too many mistakes!

From what I've read so far, the general advice seems to be buy the biggest tank you can fit / afford (as the environment is easier to manage), make sure you cycle it properly, don't overstock/overfeed, and make sure you look after it well with water changes etc. All well and good.

I'm thinking I'd be looking at a Tropical Freshwater Aquarium, from what I've read Marine seems to be a good bit tougher, especially for a newbie. I've looked around and Seahorse Aquariums have a wide choice of tanks and they're pretty nearby for me. I like the look of either the Juwel Rekord 700 (70L) or 800 (110L) as it seems to be a decent beginners tank. It comes with Juwel's built in Heater/Filter and 2 lights, and while I can see the point that a built in unit might not be as good as getting separate better ones, I also think it'll take some of the hassle out of my first aquarium. Reviews seem to be good for them, but I was looking for some opinons here. Would a 70L or a 110L be better for a first tank?

If I went with the 70L or 110L, what quantity of fish would I be looking at? I was thinking that one or two small schools (maybe 6-8 Tetras and 6-8 something else) might be nice, maybe along with a couple of bottom feeders (apologies if I'm using the wrong language here!) and a couple of slightly larger fish? How does that sound? Obviously I'd be looking for fish that will live well together and have a chance of surviving any clumsiness I may have! From what I've read, I'd be adding them all very gradually anyhow.

I'm not sure about the differences between sand and gravel though. I think sand might be nicer myself, but is one easier to look after than the other? And I think I'd be going with 'fake' plants etc. rather than live ones, just to take more hassle out of it for me. Apart from looks, is there a disadvantage with going with fake ones?

That's all I can think of right now, thanks in advance for your advice!

J.

Sleepy

For the tank, buy second hand. There's much better value and for the same price as you might pay Seahorse for 110l, you could find a 180l on the second-hand market. Aim for a euro a litre.

A 70l tank isn't particularly large. I've two about that size in the house, one is home to a single Betta in my eldest's (7 year old) bedroom and the other has 6 White Clouds, 5 Zebra Danio and a small golden pleco. To give you an idea of the second hand market, I don't think I paid over €60 for either including heaters, filters and some decoration. My 180l I got for around less than €200 and my 100l cost €50 but need a little TLC, substrate, a filter and heater.

Consider adding plants to any tank, they're great for water quality and look great imo.

JanneG

Speaking from personal experience I would go with the larger tank and I have the rekord 800 myself.

You'll need a fair bit of patience to begin with and get the tank properly cycled as it most definitely pays off in the long run both for the health of the tank and its inhabitants.

I have a school of rasboras together with a couple of corydoras on the bottom. This gives, I think, a nice basis for the tank and I could then expand from there. Also, I prefer live plants in the tank as I think it gives the look of the tank that bit extra.

The only thing I would say is that if you want to go for a brand new tank and you go for the Rekord 800 is that I found the pump that comes with the filter is a tad weak and I ended up swapping it for the next size up and have been very happy since.

However, the best economy would be to go looking at the used market.

jasonb

Thanks for your replies. Interesting that you both recommend live plants, and buying second hand, gives me food for thought. Is there anything in particular to worry about if buying second hand compared to brand new? For example, should i be replacing the filter sponges (if that's the right word?) or keeping them?

When you replaced the pump JanneG did you just get the Juwel 600 instead of the 400? I know their Rekords seem to have a built-in pump/heater/filter that's attached to the side of the tank, did you need to replace the whole unit or did the new pump just somehow fit into the existing enclosure?

Thanks...

J.

tteknulp

jasonb wrote: »

Thanks for your replies. Interesting that you both recommend live plants, and buying second hand, gives me food for thought. Is there anything in particular to worry about if buying second hand compared to brand new? For example, should i be replacing the filter sponges (if that's the right word?) or keeping them?

When you replaced the pump JanneG did you just get the Juwel 600 instead of the 400? I know their Rekords seem to have a built-in pump/heater/filter that's attached to the side of the tank, did you need to replace the whole unit or did the new pump just somehow fit into the existing enclosure?

Thanks...

J.

A juwel vision 180 ,would be a great start ,if start to small ? You will have to upgrade sooner than you think ,just my advise.

JanneG

jasonb wrote: »

Thanks for your replies. Interesting that you both recommend live plants, and buying second hand, gives me food for thought. Is there anything in particular to worry about if buying second hand compared to brand new? For example, should i be replacing the filter sponges (if that's the right word?) or keeping them?

When you replaced the pump JanneG did you just get the Juwel 600 instead of the 400? I know their Rekords seem to have a built-in pump/heater/filter that's attached to the side of the tank, did you need to replace the whole unit or did the new pump just somehow fit into the existing enclosure?

Thanks...

J.

Went for the 600 pump alright as I felt the 1000 would be much too strong.
The pumps are straight replacements without having to change anything else.

I would also agree to replacing all the filter media so that you know you're starting something fresh.

jasonb

Thanks for your replies...

I'll have a look at the Vision 180, but it might be a bit too big for where I'm planning, and possibly a bit too expensive as well.

Thatr's good to hear about the 600 pump being able to 'drop-in', makes the upgrade easy.

Any thoughts on sand v gravel?

Thanks...

J.

Sleepy

There's lots of the Juwel Rio 180's knocking around second hand as well.

Mr Whirly

Be careful with 2nd hand tanks. No guarantee and no idea of the condition of the seals.

oldat31

I started with a 450 ltr tank, 5ft long.... I love it but it takes time to get used to how things are ment to work and how they actually work.

Buy a good test kit, they one with the test tubes and drops, not the strips, they dont read the water right.. And you will need a good test kit to watch for the cycle. You will get a good one on ebay for 20 euro.

Dont go mad buying the best of the best in filter media, I use sponges that are used for washing a car, once it is pours it will hold the bacteria, also a good cheap sub for bio balls is cheap drinking straws cut into little bits, its does the same job....

If you are buying the tank 2nd hand make sure you give it a really good going over before you take it away, if its has bad seals it can be a right pain in the ass to get it fixed.

As for live plants, well they feed on nitrates, and the reason we do water changes is to keep the nitrates down so they help.

Keep your tank out or direct sunlight, to many people make the mistake of putting it by a window and withing days everything turns green....

As for getting fish, Once your tank has cycled DO NOT add loads of fish at once, it will cause your tank to cycle again. Add a few at a time, and once the water is staying settled add more.

Have fun picking your fish because once you get them you have to look at them

tteknulp

Heres one for you, all you need for €75 60ltr

http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/forum/34-for-sale/131526-aquarium-with-lighting-gravel-and-150w-heater-75


This is a nice beginner to intermediate 140tlr cube with stand

http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/forum/34-for-sale/131520-140l-aqua-one-tank

m4r10

If you're going with the second-hand tank, you'll be better of registering on one of the fish forums as there's a better chance to get a good deal on tanks as the members will know the approximate value of tanks and will be less likely to be ripped off by some chancer. As mentioned above, the rule of thumb is to pay €1 per liter, that including stand, lights and maybe a heater and filter. If you go for a a tank over 100l, it's better to invest in an external filter as they're more efficient at keeping the water clean.

While you're at it, don't skimp on the filter media, it's the difference between life and death of the fish as the good bacteria populates the media inside the filter. While DIY media can work in some settings, specialized media will host more bacteria than the DIY one, doesn't cost that much and it's not likely you'll have to change it over the life time of the filter (except sponges, which will last a few years anyway).

As for test kits, don't bother. If you need the water tested, take it to your LFS and they'll do it for you. Test kits have a short life span and outside that, they won't be accurate anyway.

Mr Whirly

At the very least invest in a nitrite test kit. What use is bringing your water to a shop if your fish are already dying?

m4r10

Mr Whirly wrote: »

At the very least invest in a nitrite test kit. What use is bringing your water to a shop if your fish are already dying?

While some fish keepers swear on test kits, in my experience if you keep on top of water changes, there's no need for a test kit. I never had a total or near total wipe out of my fish even when introducing 60 cardinals in one tank at the same time and didn't use test kits.

Mr Whirly

m4r10 wrote: »

While some fish keepers swear on test kits, in my experience if you keep on top of water changes, there's no need for a test kit. I never had a total or near total wipe out of my fish even when introducing 60 cardinals in one tank at the same time and didn't use test kits.

So you would recommend someone with a new tank not to bother testing their very unstable water parameters? For €12 you can buy a nitrite test kit that will last six or seven months. It's a no brainer. I'd liken having a nitrite test kit and testing regularly to having a smoke alarm in your house.

fred funk }{

Once the tank becomes established and mature there isn't really a need to test for ammonia and nitrite.

I do random tests for nitrates just to keep an eye on the levels and make sure my water changes are lowering it enough. I also check my ph, kh and gh just to make sure they aren't moving too much. A stable aquarium is a happy aquarium.

Keep the feeding to a minimum and do scheduled regular water changes and you'll have a healthy tank.

m4r10

Mr Whirly wrote: »

So you would recommend someone with a new tank not to bother testing their very unstable water parameters? For €12 you can buy a nitrite test kit that will last six or seven months. It's a no brainer. I'd liken having a nitrite test kit and testing regularly to having a smoke alarm in your house.

Each to their own, but I'd rather spend those €12 on fish than test kits. As fred above said, test kits are mostly used during cycling of the tank to tell you if the tank is ready for fish. Test kit or not, the cycling will take at most 6 weeks if not rushed and I see no point in checking the nitrite levels every day for that period.

Just imagine how fish keepers of 10-15 years ago were keeping the water parameters in check without any test kits. My first reaction to any signs of fish not looking as usual would be a water change and I'd say that will be enough to bring the parameters back to normal.

Mr Whirly

m4r10 wrote: »

Each to their own, but I'd rather spend those €12 on fish than test kits. As fred above said, test kits are mostly used during cycling of the tank to tell you if the tank is ready for fish. Test kit or not, the cycling will take at most 6 weeks if not rushed and I see no point in checking the nitrite levels every day for that period.

Just imagine how fish keepers of 10-15 years ago were keeping the water parameters in check without any test kits. My first reaction to any signs of fish not looking as usual would be a water change and I'd say that will be enough to bring the parameters back to normal.

Of course there was test kits 10 or 15 years ago. You're advising someone with no experience setting up a tank not to test the water. Nonsense.

A tank will be unstable for up to and over 6 months. I have some pretty expensive fish and there is no obvious signs if your nitrite levels are rising other than to test it, I wouldn't wait until they get sick to start water changing.

I've been at this a long time and you'll be sorry sooner or later if you don't test regularly.

m4r10

Of course there are obvious signs if the nitrite levels are high: lethargic fish, fish rubbing against decor, fish gasping for air at the surface. Some other signs not that obvious: color change of the gills. If I see any fish with any of the above symptoms, my first "remedy" would be an extra water change on top of the weekly one.

If the OP decides to go for a test kit, that's good, I only shared my experience/opinion about them which is, again, waste of money.

PS. Can I ask you how often do you test your water?

Mr Whirly

m4r10 wrote: »

Of course there are obvious signs if the nitrite levels are high: lethargic fish, fish rubbing against decor, fish gasping for air at the surface. Some other signs not that obvious: color change of the gills. If I see any fish with any of the above symptoms, my first "remedy" would be an extra water change on top of the weekly one.

If the OP decides to go for a test kit, that's good, I only shared my experience/opinion about them which is, again, waste of money.

PS. Can I ask you how often do you test your water?

So you wait until your fish are sick and lethargic to remedy the situation. I would take the same course of action as you regarding a water change but how do you know when the levels are low again? Or if it isn't another problem?

I test every week to two week. Just for nitrites on established tanks. If the council have done anything to the water supply I'll test the ph.

m4r10

Never happened to see a fish in that situation, I was just putting myself in a situation where I see a fish with the above symptoms. I would keep up the small w-c for a few days until all of the old water is replaced with new water, reduce feeding, etc, all the known steps until the fish would return to normal, all this without the need of a testing kit.

As for potential other problems, your nitrite kit will not show them either as you're only testing for nitrite, but as a rule of thumb, most water problems are remediable by water changes. Usually I change 50% every week and that seem to keep my fish happy enough.

I don't have any expensive fish like you just the run of the mill community ones, but would be heartbroken if I would lose them, so the price of fish has no relevance here.

Mr Whirly

m4r10 wrote: »

Never happened to see a fish in that situation, I was just putting myself in a situation where I see a fish with the above symptoms. I would keep up the small w-c for a few days until all of the old water is replaced with new water, reduce feeding, etc, all the known steps until the fish would return to normal, all this without the need of a testing kit.

As for potential other problems, your nitrite kit will not show them either as you're only testing for nitrite, but as a rule of thumb, most water problems are remediable by water changes. Usually I change 50% every week and that seem to keep my fish happy enough.

I don't have any expensive fish like you just the run of the mill community ones, but would be heartbroken if I would lose them, so the price of fish has no relevance here.

If there is no nitrites, testing for it will rule it out though. Then you can check for something else. Often if there is a problem with a tank it can take a while to deduce what the problem is. It could be internal parasite, neon tetra disease or a whole plethora of other things that water changes won't remedy.

You obviously have a good routine and by the sound of things your tank is well established. The op's is not so I wouldn't put him off getting a set of kits.

It's a great hobby and water chemistry is an important part of it. The best way to get to grips with it is by regularly testing the tank as it's going through it's initial cycle and the months after it. You will then learn to "know" your tank. Just my two cents anyway.

jasonb

Thanks for all the good advice, and it's good to know that even with different opinions it hasn't turned into a slagging match and no-one's mentioned Hitler yet.

I think I probably would get a kit, especially for the first few weeks while cycling, if for no other reason than I love science and all that kinda stuff and would enjoy testing and seeing the results.

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of sand or gravel? Also, if I go with live plants, do they go in during the cycle, or after it?

Thanks...

Jason.

oldat31

jasonb wrote: »

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of sand or gravel? Also, if I go with live plants, do they go in during the cycle, or after it?

Thanks...

Jason.

I have sand and to be honest Im not sure what to think. Its hard to clean, all the waste seems to get pushed to the bottom and covered by the sand and I think its part of the reason I have high nitrates.

Where having Gravel I would be able to use a hoover which would solve me hours off cleaning time...

But if you dont mind the extra work, Sand looks GREAT!!!!!

As for plants, Im not 100% sure if they would go in before or after cycle but I would assume they would help the cycle once you were adding something to the water to feed them.

But the down side of plants is having to watch what fish you put in the tank, I had some lovely plants, really long... But a friend gave me his severum and it ate them all in 1 day.lol


The biggest tip anyone can give you is trial and error. Research, learn and try. If it goes wrong you know not to do it that way!

lynchie

jasonb wrote: »

Thanks for all the good advice, and it's good to know that even with different opinions it hasn't turned into a slagging match and no-one's mentioned Hitler yet.

I think I probably would get a kit, especially for the first few weeks while cycling, if for no other reason than I love science and all that kinda stuff and would enjoy testing and seeing the results.

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of sand or gravel? Also, if I go with live plants, do they go in during the cycle, or after it?

Thanks...

Jason.

I have sand and I dont find it that hard to keep clean. Just hover the gravel cleaner over the sand and it will pull up all the dirt. Sand is an almost MUST if you decide to get Corys.

Best to put plants in after the cycle as plants can use up some of the ammonia during the cycle giving the impression that there is more bacteria than you think there is.

jasonb

Thought I'd add to this thread as I've made some progress!

A friend of mine has very graciously given me his old Aquarium, as he's just not using it anymore. It's a Juwel, approx. 99cm x 38cm x 42cm, which I reckon is about 160L. It has a cabinet too.

There's lots of other stuff with it too, including a heater (Hydor Theo 200W), and a pump/filter (JBL CristalProfi e900). There are also two bulbs, both 895mm. One is a Solar Ultra Marin Blue and one is a Solar Ultra Marin Day.

So, I guess I'm asking what's next? It all needs to be cleaned, are there any products I should or shouldn't use? The Aquarium was last used as a Marine one, will that make any difference? For example, is the Heater or Pump ok for Tropical instead of Marine? Are the Bulbs?

Assuming I get it all cleaned up, I'm thinking I'll look at advice about sand/gravel and live plants, along with getting media for the filter.

Anyhow, all comments and advice are welcome, thanks!

J.

kylith

I use vinegar to clean tanks I get second hand. It gets any limescale off and as long as you rinse well will give no problems. In my newer tank I've used John Innes 3 potting soil capped with black sand and, bar some teething troubles, it's doing great and the plants love it. Once you have your substrate in you can fill the tank (if you're using a soil/sand substrate you'll need to use a plate to slow the water flow) with dechlorinated water and start your cycle (sticky at the top of the forum), and that'll give you 4-6 weeks to decide what stock you want.

I don't know much about lights, I'm afraid.

jasonb

Thanks for your reply...

Some research online has shown that the bulbs are Marine bulbs (hence Marin in the name!) and aren't really ideal for freshwater, so I reckon I'll get some new ones. I'll also need to get some new filter media, as the filter 'cages' have nothing in them. I don't mind spending a bit of money to get it right, considering how much money I've saved with getting a free tank, stand, pump, heater, lights etc.!

First step is cleaning everything though, and like you said I've seen other people advising Vinegar as well. One article talked about filling the tank with tap water & some vinegar and running the pump for a few days to cycle to all (and to clean the pump as well). Then dumping the vinegar solution and doing it all again with just tap water, to remove all the vinegar. Does that sound like good advice? If I'm using the pump (to both clean it and cycle the water in the tank), should I put new media into it, and if so, I'm guessing I'd have to dump them again and replace them with new ones, as the filters would end up soaked in vinegar solution? Or would it be ok to run the pump without the media, just to get the vinegar solution moving through it?

Have spent a little while looking a fish, trying to decide what I'd like, as that will aim me towards what substrate / plants to use. I was thinking I'd get some Tetras, but they seem to like well planted tanks, so now I'm leaning more towards some Barbs, and some Corys as well. Obviously I'm a good while away from getting fish, but I don't want to set up the tank, and then realise it doesn't suit the fish I'd like! I'm thinking I will use live plants, but maybe only a couple (I'll have enough work not killing fish without having to not kill plants as well!), and I'll add some rock / ornaments to make the tank more interesting for the fish (and me)!

J.

kylith

I've never heard of filling the tank with water and vinegar and letting it run, though it sounds like it would clean out any scale in the filter. My sense of caution would argue against it, simply because I've never done it, nor have I heard of anyone else doing it, and for the same reason I wouldn't use the filter media if I were doing it. That said, I can't really think of any logical reason not to do it; as long as there's not much of it all the vinegar will do is mess up the pH a bit, and once you've done a few water changes there wouldn't be any vinegar left. If you try it let me know how you get on.

A great site for helping pick fish is aqadvisor.com. If you put in your tank dimensions you can try out what fish you'd like and it'll advise on stocking levels and compatibility. It errs on the side of caution when it comes to stocking. Fishlore is good for telling you about particular fish; size, diet, etc.

I'd love some corys, they're lovely, but with a BN pleco and a pair of Cockatoo Apistos that just keep breeding (I've had them about 3 months and their on their third brood, thankfully only 1 from their first brood and none from the second made it) the bottom of my tank is a bit too busy for Corys. I'll just have to wait for OH to turn his back so I can get another tank!

jasonb

Thanks again for your reply! This is all new to me so it's great to get some advice.

Like you, the logic of running vinegar through the filter and letting it run for a day or two does make sense to me, it'll clean the filter as well as the tank. The article I found does then suggest running just water through the tank/filter for a few more days, which gets rid of any remaining vinegar, so that seems to make sense too. The person who wrote the article (it can be found here, just scroll down to the cleaning section: http://www.reefaquarium.com/2013/buying-a-used-aquarium/ ) does point out that what he does could be considered overkill, but he likes the peace of mind it gives him. Once all the cleaning is done, *then* you look at adding your 'proper' water with the filter media in place in the filter etc.

I love the Aqadvisor site, thanks! It's very handy, just to get a sense of what would work and what wouldn't. It seems to be very happy with my initial thoughts (6 Sterba Corys, 6 Gold Barbs, 5 Clown Killifish and maybe something else). I love the idea of some sort of bottom feeders, and the Corys seem to be the best bet for me. When it comes down to it, for my first attempt I'd like to get some fish that I like, and who won't die if I look at them funny...

J.

CruelCoin

Mr Whirly wrote: »

So you would recommend someone with a new tank not to bother testing their very unstable water parameters? For €12 you can buy a nitrite test kit that will last six or seven months. It's a no brainer. I'd liken having a nitrite test kit and testing regularly to having a smoke alarm in your house.

The process goes from ammonia>nitrite>nitrate.

Ammonia being the most toxic. If you were to do only 1 test, then it should be ammonia.

OP, you should be seeing levels of 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrate, xxppm nitrate. The main reason you do water changes is to keep nitrates below 50ppm or so. Much above that and your fish will suffer.

An over stocked tank/filter will not be able to keep up with the fishes waste and you would see an ammonia spike.

If you get a stronger/larger filter, then you could keep more fish in the tank, due to being able to process more ammonia through to nitrate.