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Does a tenant have the right to let a friend stay over?
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jmayo, that's pretty much my take on the situation exactly. He's an asshat, and he's basically thrown a tantrum.
I know tons of people are losing their jobs right now through no fault of their own, but I would put good money on it, if i had any, that his personality problems were a big factor in his getting the boot from work.
Unfortunately I think he's going to keep doing crap like this because my cousin hates any kind of confrontation or bad feeling and will let him away with this. She's more likely to simply never have an overnight guest ever again than to stand her ground on this issue.
I know she needs to learn to be more assertive, and it's not right for me to try to step in and "fix" this, but it annoys me anyway, because a) I hate to see a bullying asshat like this get away with taking his personal problems out on other people and b) she's kind of like a little sister to me and I feel kind of protective, I want to punch anyone who makes her sad. This fecker has ruined her only holiday and IMO deserves the crap kicked out of him. I'm not going to do or say anything, but that's how I feel.
The other problem is that because I'm disabled, it's going to be a while before I can leave. i need to wait for my pain meds to start kicking in, shower, and try to arrange some kind of a lift. The fool next door will probably spend that whole time texting his dad going "she's still there......still there.....hasn't left yet.....":(
You can't do anything as it will make matters worse for your cousin.
Also you can't touch him even if he deserves it as that is illegal.
One thing I would do is put your phone on record mode as you are leaving.
And yes we all know the legalities of recording people and it's use in a court of law, but it can be handy in a "he said she said" arguement.
Hell you can even tell him and then it is perfectly legal.
This guy could be waiting, since he doesn't appear to have a proper job, and might want to have a go.
If he challenges you, tell him you are leaving as soon as was possible in your condition, your cousin regrets not informing him, and that is it.
Of course if he starts up, you have to make judgement call whether or not you enquire as to whether his ability is God given natural ability or if he has actively studied to become such an assh***.
You could also say you are not going to argue since he will only drag it to his level and beat you with his undoubted experience.I am not allowed discuss …
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Of course if he starts up, you have to make judgement call whether or not you enquire as to whether his ability is God given natural ability or if he has actively studied to become such an assh***.
You could also say you are not going to argue since he will only drag it to his level and beat you with his undoubted experience.
LMAO!
I will definitely be recording as I leave, and I would have absolutely no problem telling him "I'm recording this conversation." Besides which if he attempts to initiate any kind of interaction I'll be making it clear that I don't wish to have any contact with him of any kind, that i contacted the Gardai last night and will do so again without hesitation if he so much as looks at me.
Hopefully i won't be alone either, if i can get a lift; whoever's driving me home will come and carry my bag for me as i can't carry it myself. I wouldn't have brought a bag i couldn't carry except that the original arrangement meant having a lift both ways; besides the amount i actually can carry is pretty pathetic.0 -
ETA: Yeah, i know this situation might have been avoided if she'd talked to him in advance, but it's too late now. Besides he sees it as asking for permission, rather than informing, and he might have just said "no" because he wants to poke through her knicker drawer while she's away.
The landlord or their agent really are not being informed though, the tenant would need to ask permission, they could have legitimately said no.
Also, its a fair stretch to say they might want to look through her knickers??I know tons of people are losing their jobs right now through no fault of their own, but I would put good money on it, if i had any, that his personality problems were a big factor in his getting the boot from work.
I know she needs to learn to be more assertive, and it's not right for me to try to step in and "fix" this, but it annoys me anyway, because a) I hate to see a bullying asshat like this get away with taking his personal problems out on other people and b) she's kind of like a little sister to me and I feel kind of protective, I want to punch anyone who makes her sad. This fecker has ruined her only holiday and IMO deserves the crap kicked out of him. I'm not going to do or say anything, but that's how I feel.
The other problem is that because I'm disabled, it's going to be a while before I can leave. i need to wait for my pain meds to start kicking in, shower, and try to arrange some kind of a lift. The fool next door will probably spend that whole time texting his dad going "she's still there......still there.....hasn't left yet.....":(
How or why he lost his job is really irrelevant it would seem.
Also even suggesting that he should have the crap beaten out of him, lets just say it was a landlord coming on saying that or anyone, they would be rightfully shut down.
I think you need to accept, even based on their previous experience that it would have been wise to bring this all up in advance, your cousin knowing them, knowing the person lives very close and of the previous subletting dropped herself in it by not bringing this up. She is as much at fault as they are,how is she even aware of a previous subletting?? unless she was specifically told about it, which passes the responsibility even more to her. The landlord might be annoyed this was brought up and then it seems ignored? I cant see how she would know otherwise?
They may not have approached it in the best way, but Id be more inclined to think if the Gardai turned up, they could justifiably have any person other than the tenant removed, especially in the absence of the tenants presence. Without any agreement they might think you just know the tenant and have agreed to allow yourself in, maybe without the tenants permission. At the very least the landlord is protecting themselves by not allowing something noticed to go unchallenged.
It seems fair that they should give you some time to organise things as you weren't expecting all this, but they could probably demand you leave or are turned out instantly and to hand any keys back to them as you have no agreement with them or permission to enter the property.
I think the blame is squarely in your cousins corner, it seems possible its a breach of the tenancy agreement also.0 -
The landlord or their agent really are not being informed though, the tenant would need to ask permission, they could have legitimately said no.
Legally she doesn't have to ask his permission though, that was the point I was making, this guy wants her to "ask" as opposed to "inform".
And legally she doesn't have to inform him at all of a guest staying for a couple of nights. She has to inform him of anyone living at the property, which isn't applicable here. My point was just that his insistence on being asked for permission is clearly a reflection of his own personal issues.
I'm not actually suggesting that's what he wants to do; I was just saying that even if my cousin had informed him out of courtesy that I would be staying there, his insistence on having a say in it would mean that if he felt like it, for any reason, he might have said "No you can't" because he mistakenly thinks he has the right to. Which he doesn't. I was just saying that in my opinion of his strange personality he is probably the type to say no for his own personal reasons as opposed to anything like insurance considerations or whatever.Also, its a fair stretch to say they might want to look through her knickers??
I was just agreeing with a previous poster that his personality issues probably affected his work if that's the way he deals with "conflict." I don't know or care how he lost his job. And obviously I'm not seriously endorsing violence, for one thing I'm a woman and he's a man who outweighs me by quite a lot, for another I'm disabled so I am not likely to be actually starting any fights, and for another why would I call the guards if i were going to try to use violence? It wasn't meant to be taken literally, I was just saying I think he deserves to suffer because he's a bully and he's caused so much trouble for other people for no reason other than his own control issues.How or why he lost his job is really irrelevant it would seem.
Also even suggesting that he should have the crap beaten out of him, lets just say it was a landlord coming on saying that or anyone, they would be rightfully shut down.
I've already agreed that it would have been wise of her to mention it in advance, even though it would be a courtesy as opposed to a legal obligation. But "she should have done xyz" doesn't actually help me rigth at this minute because that's in the past.I think you need to accept, even based on their previous experience that it would have been wise to bring this all up in advance, your cousin knowing them, knowing the person lives very close and of the previous subletting dropped herself in it by not bringing this up. She is as much at fault as they are,how is she even aware of a previous subletting?? unless she was specifically told about it, which passes the responsibility even more to her. The landlord might be annoyed this was brought up and then it seems ignored? I cant see how she would know otherwise?
I insisted that the gardai not turn up in person specifically because it would just provoke the weirdo next door to some kind of retaliation, probably against my cousin.They may not have approached it in the best way, but Id be more inclined to think if the Gardai turned up, they could justifiably have any person other than the tenant removed, especially in the absence of the tenants presence. Without any agreement they might think you just know the tenant and have agreed to allow yourself in, maybe without the tenants permission. At the very least the landlord is protecting themselves by not allowing something noticed to go unchallenged.
It seems fair that they should give you some time to organise things as you weren't expecting all this, but they could probably demand you leave or are turned out instantly and to hand any keys back to them as you have no agreement with them or permission to enter the property.
This joker doesn't actually dispute that i'm here with my cousin's permission. He is not claiming that I'm some randomer off the street who stole the keys and decided to have a little holiday in someone else's flat. The gardai, if they turned up, would tell him to leave me alone, and that's it. Yes, legally they could escort me off the premises, if he tried to claim that I had no permission -from the tenant, not them to be in the flat; however legally they cannot force me to leave just because he doesn't want me there, because he does not have the right to arbitrarily decide what guests my cousin can have.
I don't see how she's to blame for anything, and it's not a breach of her tenancy agreement. The landlord's son didn't say "That's against the terns of her lease" he said "That's against the law according to the RTA 2004." He's squarely to blame for this, but it's me and my cousin who have to suffer for it.I think the blame is squarely in your cousins corner, it seems possible its a breach of the tenancy agreement also.0 -
UPDATE: So my cousin texted me this morning saying "just had call from landlord, he is really not happy with me having someone stay there, really sorry but I'm going to have to ask you to leave."
I replied "Of course I'll leave if you want but btw you do know he's wrong and you've every right to have a guest."
She said "I know I just don't want any bad vibes with him."
I said "No problem I'll go as soon as the pills start working & I have a shower & find a lift. Had to call the guards last night because yer man was being so aggressive."
She freaked out and called me, was basically livid. At one stage she said "I have to live there! Did the guards turn up there? No? Well does he know you called them?"
I said "No, I just called them because he was unbelievably aggressive, is clearly unstable, and I didn't know what he was going to do. They wanted to come and talk to him, but i said 'Please don't, i think he's had his say now and he probably won't do anything; i think having the guards show up will only make trouble, it might provoke him to make trouble for my cousin, I'm just staying in here and ignoring him, I just wanted you to be aware of the situation just in case anything happens."
So she said, clearly worried, "Wait, so they have his name and address and everything?"
"No, i still don't know his name, they have my name and the address. It's a note in their blotter of call record or whatever, it's not an official police report or anything."
"So you haven't told him about calling the guards?"
I said "No, but if he tries to start anything with me while i'm leaving, I will tell him 'I don't want any contact with you, don't talk to me, leave me alone or I'll call the guards."
"Don't tell him that. I have to live there, can you understand that? If he thinks you called the guards on him he'll make sure I get kicked out one way or another."
"This guy is a lunatic. If he comes near me i will tell him I'm going to call the guards. I'm sorry but that's about my personal interactions with him and I need to keep him away from me."
"Right, well I just hope you don't meet him," she said, and hung up.
So she's basically blaming me for the whole thing, this is the worst fight we've ever had, and it's all down to this tool and his power trip.:mad::(:confused:0 -
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Sounds to me like she knows already what this lad is like, which makes me question why she agreed to let you stay there in the first place when she probably knew that this would be his reaction.0
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She knew he was "a bit neurotic" but didn't think he'd have a problem with this. I mean a normal person wouldn't have a problem with it. But I don't think he's ever shown her that aggressive side.0
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just make sure your cousin isnt afraid to call the Gardai if the landlord or moreso his son start giving her hassle, she's still entitled to "quiet enjoyment" of the property, regardless of what potential breach of lease contract there may be (although I don't think there was one).0
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Are you mad? The OP doesnt need permission from the landlord, she has permission of the tenant to be there as a guest. Its the tenants home, she dictates who comes or goes as a guest, not the landlord...It seems fair that they should give you some time to organise things as you weren't expecting all this, but they could probably demand you leave or are turned out instantly and to hand any keys back to them as you have no agreement with them or permission to enter the property.
I think the blame is squarely in your cousins corner, it seems possible its a breach of the tenancy agreement also.0 -
Did you think about giving Threshold a quick call? They give advice to tenants. The landlord's son/agent is acting completely over the top. I'm a landlord myself and tenants are indeed entitled to "quiet enjoyment" - ok yes if I saw a stranger in my apartment and there was no sign of the tenant I'd be a bit concerned - but I'd either pick up the phone to the tenant and ask what was going on or ask (not yell at) the 'stranger'. If this situation was explained to me I'd have no problem whatsoever with a friend staying over for a few days. Especially as you explained right up front what you were doing there and why...
The main thing is - don't let get this in the way of your undouted friendship with your cousin! Don't let him do that to either of you!!0 -
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OP, the landlord's son is out of order. It's up to your cousin to contact PRTB and/or Threshold but she seems like a quiet unconfrontational sort. Perhaps that's why the landlord rented the apartment to her in the first place.
However, I don't think she should let it go. The more idiots like that are allowed to bully tenants the worse they will get. Years ago people fought and died in this country so tenants could have rights. Some tenants would go to the PRTB for a lot less. If your cousin is in a Part 4 tenancy there is very little the landlord can do.
I wonder if the little scumbag wants to get rid of your cousin so he can let the apartment to one of his mates.
She would be well advised to contact PRTB, Threshold or even the Gardai but it's up to her at the end of the day. It's a shame you were caught up in it all.0 -
starling, just leave when you can and forget about it, its your cousins problem now, it doesnt sound like she has any b@lls at all!!!0
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Wonder if the cousin needs the landlord permission if the op cousin wanted to have children
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Are you mad? The OP doesnt need permission from the landlord, she has permission of the tenant to be there as a guest. Its the tenants home, she dictates who comes or goes as a guest, not the landlord...
Well, given the previous history the OP mentioned regarding the property
I think it would have made sense to inform the landlord. That may have prevented this, they may be up in arms as they are unaware and suddenly see or hear (if its right beside?) someone at the property when they know the Tenant is not around.
The RTA says a person can have guests and Im not going to look at it in detail to see what it says, I dont have the time.
But I suspect the meaning of that is have guests to stay when you are present, not allow people to stay when you are not present, but more so if the tenant is specifically gone on holiday/away. In that circumstance the tenant would have to give a key/s to some other person, that the landlord has not entered into an agreement to allow access the property.
Lets just say if I was renting with someone else (as I have done in the past), (I know its seems the tenant in this case rents on their own) Id be a bit suprised if a fellow tenant went on a holiday and allowed someone to stay in their absence, especially if they never told me about it and the first I know of it is bumping into them in the place.
thing is tenants and landlords have rights and obligations, they cant just do as they please. That'd be like saying its the tenants home, the tenant can start knocking walls down or redecorating
or the landlord could let themself in when the tenant isnt there, or midway through dinner.
They could easily have tested the water by informing the landlord in advance, which it's admitted did not happen. A small bit of communication can go a long way.0 -
You suspect it do you? When someone rents a property it becomes their home and they are entitled to have guests, regardless to whether they are there or not, the same as any other home. End of story.But I suspect the meaning of that is have guests to stay when you are present, not allow people to stay when you are not present
This notion that a rental agreement is like appointing your landlord as your new Mammy or Daddy that seems to go on in Ireland is amusing. It must be because actual tenancy rights are a relatively new phenomenon here.0 -
You suspect it do you? When someone rents a property it becomes their home and they are entitled to have guests, regardless to whether they are there or not, the same as any other home. End of story.
This notion that a rental agreement is like appointing your landlord as your new Mammy or Daddy that seems to go on in Ireland is amusing. It must be because actual tenancy rights are a relatively new phenomenon here.
It depends when they change from being a guest (permitted) to living there (not permitted). In the absence of the tenant you could argue that the 'guest' is not a guest at all, but is living there0 -
How could you argue that? If I have my mate over and nip down to the shop for a pack of fags is he 'living there' for the twenty minutes Im out?Grandpa Hassan wrote: »It depends when they change from being a guest (permitted) to living there (not permitted). In the absence of the tenant you could argue that the 'guest' is not a guest at all, but is living there0 -
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Grandpa Hassan wrote: »No. But you go on holiday for a few days and he is.
The "staying there" v "living there" distinction would probably be based not only on length of time but also what class of personal possessions were brought. Overnight bag? Staying. Television and furniture? Different kettle of fish...0 -
Grandpa Hassan wrote: »No. But you go on holiday for a few days and he is.
Says who? Can you show where having a guest for a few days is deemed as having someone else living there in the RTA?0 -
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I am surprised in 4pages nobody has mentioned your cousin is perfectly within her rights to have someone housesit whilst away.
The only reason in this case the landlord has been made aware of you is because his son stuck his nose in. For all he knows you are there to feed the cat or the budgy but unless its a house share rather than house flats basically its none of his business.
Your cousins holiday is now ruined & your relationship fraught because of his interference and I think you should both be prepared for fallout on her return. Personally if I were your cousin I would be straight on to PRTB & Threshold on my return but I suspect she won't & will still end up being kicked out.0 -
I am surprised in 4pages nobody has mentioned your cousin is perfectly within her rights to have someone housesit whilst away.
For a few days, a fortnight holiday, all the parties would likely be pragmatic and leave it well alone. The LL would probably appreciate someone looking after the place. What about for a month? Or if the tenant on the lease goes backpacking for 6 months? Another person can't just move in without getting the LL's permission, in this case, the LL doesn't know what is going on. You aren't allowed to sublet, and to the LL that might appear to be a sublet.
I don't deny that the LL and his agent has acted petulantly, but a bit of communication goes a long way. Tenants often forget that0 -
Grandpa Hassan wrote: »in this case, the LL doesn't know what is going on.
In this case the landlord's son was told very clearly what was going on, albeit not in advance and not by the tenant herself.0 -
Grandpa Hassan wrote: »For a few days, a fortnight holiday, all the parties would likely be pragmatic and leave it well alone. The LL would probably appreciate someone looking after the place. What about for a month? Or if the tenant on the lease goes backpacking for 6 months? Another person can't just move in without getting the LL's permission, in this case, the LL doesn't know what is going on. You aren't allowed to sublet, and to the LL that might appear to be a sublet.
I don't deny that the LL and his agent has acted petulantly, but a bit of communication goes a long way. Tenants often forget that
We're talking 3nights here.....
If it was for any longer than a week I would have myself when renting informed (not asked permission of) my landlord that somebody was staying, for security/peace of mind etc, whilst I was away however given the short timeframe here it wouldn't of dawned on me to.
The landlord is clearly out of bounds0 -
There is zero obligation for a tenant to notify a landlord of someone house-sitting for a couple of days. None.Grandpa Hassan wrote: »I don't deny that the LL and his agent has acted petulantly, but a bit of communication goes a long way. Tenants often forget that0 -
Has the land lords son got a girlfriend? Any chance he fancies your cousin and isn't too happy to see a male in her apartment, maybe he doesn't believe you are her cousin!
He sounds like a Norman Bates to me and i would advise her to move out of there! :eek:0 -
Has the land lords son got a girlfriend? Any chance he fancies your cousin and isn't too happy to see a male in her apartment, maybe he doesn't believe you are her cousin!
He sounds like a Norman Bates to me and i would advise her to move out of there! :eek:
The OP is a very lovely female.0 -
You suspect it do you? When someone rents a property it becomes their home and they are entitled to have guests, regardless to whether they are there or not, the same as any other home. End of story.
This notion that a rental agreement is like appointing your landlord as your new Mammy or Daddy that seems to go on in Ireland is amusing. It must be because actual tenancy rights are a relatively new phenomenon here.
I dont have time to peruse the act but it would be a common sense to inform them they would be away and a common courtesy to let them know they intended someone to house sit, the tenants failure to do this
may have led the landlord to believe this was going on for much longer.
It seems to me to be a common thing where people rent (or own) a property and believe they can then do what they want.There is zero obligation for a tenant to notify a landlord of someone house-sitting for a couple of days. None.
How do we know the landlord knows how long this is going on? the OP stated that they had previous issues with subletters unpermitted, so it must have been mentioned to the tenant, in that case to allay an concerns, it would have been a good idea to say it to the Landlord as a courtesy.0 -
Previous tenancies are not relevant. Its none of the landlords business if someone housesits for the tenant.How do we know the landlord knows how long this is going on? the OP stated that they had previous issues with subletters unpermitted, so it must have been mentioned to the tenant, in that case to allay an concerns, it would have been a good idea to say it to the Landlord as a courtesy.
There are a list of obligations for tenants in the RTA, outside that and any other agreed clauses in a lease, they CAN do what they want. You seem to think that a tenant is somehow answerable to landlord for their personal business just because a business contract exists betweeen them.It seems to me to be a common thing where people rent (or own) a property and believe they can then do what they want.
Whats next, begging permission from Vodafone to let someone borrow your phone?0 -
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Previous tenancies are not relevant. Its none of the landlords business if someone housesits for the tenant.
There are a list of obligations for tenants in the RTA, outside that and any other agreed clauses in a lease, they CAN do what they want. You seem to think that a tenant is somehow answerable to landlord for their personal business just because a business contract exists betweeen them.
I disagree, the tenant is not present, how does the visitor gain access?
The landlord has made an agreement with the tenant about having the use of the property, not someone else.
Have you got something to back that up or do you just shove your opinion down peoples throats?
There are a list of obligations for tenants and landlords, assigning or subletting is not allowed unless agreed to by the landlord, for all the landlord or we know this has been going on more than 3 days, hence the sense in letting them know someone will be around if the tenant is not present, otherwise it begins to look suspect.
If the tenant isnt away, then its very easy to say, he/she just went out to the shops or wherever they are,
otherwise it could look suspiciously like someone is subletting.
If the tenant let the landlord know they were away they could if possible keep an eye open , but if they are aware someone is there, they know there are no concerns.
That small bit of communication is courtesy, not doing so makes it look suspicious when caught out.0
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