Reloading

Longranger

Hi all,sorry to bring this up yet again but just a thought in my active little noggin. Has anyone ever personally tried to contact the minister for justice or his office regarding same,or is it pissing into the wind? I'm only asking because when i looked at the explosives bill last,it was due for renewal early 2013. Now it's late 2013 and i'm wondering how long it will keep going like this. I don't know much about politics and such,but i'm thinking about giving this call a try. I can hear the mods and a few others laughing at me,but I think it's worth asking. I'm also wondering if it would be worth contacting another department of government as I was thinking of it as a valid sporting topic as well. I was speaking to the minister of state for sport recently and he will hear my (our) cause personally if I put it on paper and bring it to him. As I said,probably pissing into the wind but i think worth a go. What do ye think?

Cass

I'm not laughing, nor (and i think i can speak for them) are the other mods. I know the context you meant it in.


The minister for sport would have no real input. It's not within his purview. He may, if sympathetic, lend a supportive voice, but it's the justice minister that holds the cards on this one.

The explosives bill has been on the long finger for some time now, and with recent events surrounding Gardaí (no new hires, stations closures, early retirements, manpower shortage, etc) not to mention other non Gardaí related matters it would not be on the top of anyone's list of priorities. Anyone in DoJ that is.

As for trying it yourself. Suppose it couldn't hurt to ask, but i wouldn't hold my breath. Taking the midlands (as the only place doing it) and knowing what was put in place to make it happen it might be a non runner. From a license, monetary, and workable point of view.However if you have the time, and money to throw at it go for it, and let us know how you get on.

rowa

Cass wrote: »

Taking the midlands (as the only place doing it) and knowing what was put in place to make it happen it might be a non runner. From a license, monetary, and workable point of view.

Reloading is no big deal in the north, countries like the Uk, which probably have stricter gun laws then us, France, Germany and nearly every European country I can think of. Why do things have to be so needlessly difficult and complicated here ? The irish ptb always go ott.

Cass

With all due respect as soon as they start making the laws here we can indulge in it, until then we have what we have. However i understand what you are saying.

As for being stricter than us. Not in most areas. Air rifles, how a gun looks, etc. are not an issue nor is having certain types of firearms in other countries but it is here.

In my own opinion it's down to being overly cautious. To me this is shown in it being classed as an explosive when it is far from it (propellant not BP). They do not understand what is involved, and the best way they can control it is to restrict it. It may loosen up or it may not. Hell it may even disappear in a few years. No one knows for certain.

Perhaps if more organisations took an interest it would have shown the PTB that there is a greater want, need or demand for it. However i really don't want to get into the years old debate/argument about who got it or who did not. It's tiring, and frankly i haven't the heart for it anymore. All i'm saying is for it to be "offered" and only a few to show interest in it flies in the face of the general/greater want of most lads.

I can only guess that if a lad were inclined he could replicate the security measures they demanded previously, get inspected, apply for a license, and then keep detailed records of what they buy & use, it may be possible. However i believe it works like a gun license. You can be refused, and that's the end of it.

Grizzly 45

From someone who is exploring the possibility of doing this under the current legislation and having had a chat with a DOJ offical on it.I can give you the following.

1]Reloading is not,and has never been illegal here in the ROI.

What has happened is the legislation was never really updated with the NI situation for 35 years,which also pretty killed it off too as the fear and uncertainty and no actual directives were there on what to do about importing it was forthcoming.Dealers used to just order it up from wherever and store it via the explosive act of 1872 and sell it to customers.Plus commercial shells were proably better and cheaper than homeloads in the 1950s to 1970s. We even had our own brands made here in Ireland by IMI .So it also fell into disuse by lack of intrest.
and then the current SI 2007[ explosive stores order ]was introduced which is more set up for commercial manufacturing and storing commercial explosives and substances than actual home reloading.
It is a huge and clumsy SI that is understandable and makes sense if you were importing tons of powder and making thousands of rounds,or gelignite.But overly complex for someone who wants to hand load a few deer rounds a season or a hundred rounds for the range.

2] It is the logistics and paperwork of importing powder and primers from the UK/NI/EU that kills this stone dead for commercail retailers.:(
To bring it in in viable amounts for retail to reloaders ,you are going to need a special powder storage facility seperate from your commercial premises with all the required AGS security on it and safe distances from any public right of way,lived in houses etc.
Fortunatly "shooters powder" as it is called has a low explosive UN classification so its like for a metric ton something like 30 meters from a domestic house. Getting that amount of powder into the ROI requires hazmat shipping on a ferry,with a special hazmat/explosive certified transport vechicle. Anyone hear the bank account being drained already?:eek:

However in theory you could go to NI and buy under 4kgs of powder and bring it back to the South no trouble .
IF

The DOJ grants you a liscense to import the powder in the first place.
Thats not to say it has never been done..It has and the DOJ will look at each request and decide on its merits or not.

You can find a dealer willing to sell it to you as they are all 100% sure "Its banned down in Mexico[ South of the border.:rolleyes::D]

You are willing to possibly cough up for the PSNI/AGS escort of explosive transport to your reloading facility.:eek: Which is at both police forces discretion whether they feel they need top provide it or not and whether they wish to charge for it too.
They WILL be informed about it too as the DOJ who grants the import liscenses are obliged to inform both police depts of this movement of explosives across the border.



You can convince your local fire cheif and county council that you have a suitable location to store your powder and are willing to invest in a stand alone fire alarm system[about 2K euros] to watch over your 4kg of powder.:rolleyes:
That will also require an engineers report of structural soundness of the storage and any works carried out to be signed off on as well,and any electrics to be explosion proof as well.Lest you are throwing powder around like confetti at a wedding.:rolleyes:

All in all it is a major logistic and financial headache to do this under the current legislation.For just the secure storage facilities,upgrading or building you could proably buy and import a pallet load of your favourite brand of ammo and store it with your local dealer alot easier..

Everyone is CYAing on the side of caution on this and the unfammilarity of knowing how to deal with this procedure makes it worse.:(
And we havent got to the AGS security arrangements yet.:p

So if you can figure out how to get masses of powder and primers in here cheaply and in accordance with the legislation,national and EU..Store them as well and sell it cheaper than commercial ammo,and figure out how a home re -loader can store such safely in their semi D in a housing estate within the current law requirements.You will be a [1] genius [2] pretty wealthy.

I'm stumped at the moment as to how home reloading can be done for under the current law anyway easy and without alot of expense.Nor do I see it being anywhere near the current Govts list of pirorities.

juice1304

I wish they would just look to the uk and copy their laws like they have with everything else, That would make too much sense though.

Cass

@ Grizzly. What you are discussing there is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Looking into buying powder for the purpose of selling. That would require the person to be an RFD.

Whatever about someone jumping through all the hoops, and maybe being successful for personal use, i seriously doubt the DoJ are going to allow someone to import any quantity to let that person sell it on to people they have not vetted.

Trying to make a jump like that is premature. It would be prudent to try and get it on a person per person basis. Leave the dealing/selling of it to registered firearm dealers, and forget any mention of it. To mention it would sink whatever chance you had.

Grizzly 45

Looking into buying powder for the purpose of selling. That would require the person to be an RFD.

Whatever about someone jumping through all the hoops, and maybe being successful for personal use, i seriously doubt the DoJ are going to allow someone to import any quantity to let that person sell it on to people they have not vetted.

Errr...Thought that was kind of a given that I mentioned that in point 2??
2]

It is the logistics and paperwork of importing powder and primers from the UK/NI/EU that kills this stone dead for commercail retailers.

But if not, that means RFDs.

Trying to make a jump like that is premature. It would be prudent to try and get it on a person per person basis

.

Been trying to do that...;)
Will NOT HAPPEN unless you abide by the SI and all the requirements of your local fire cheif ,AGS and DOJ that are laid out in it as it stands..
By the time you have done all that,you could set up a full blown munitions plant on your property.The SI and acts as they stand do not exempt, or even recognise non commercial reloading.
The only reference I can find on this act to shooters is it describes nitro cellulose powder as "shooters powder".
The act and SI is set up for dealing on an industrial scale with storing explosives,explosive substances and liquids,and gun powder whether nitro or black powder,and fireworks.Makes perfect sense then,not so on the scale we are talking about.

There is no section,sub section,etc that deals anywhere with exemption for ammo reloading on a hobby scale.The act is there as it stands in the ROI on powder and reloading,and as I said it isnt going to change anytime soon to suit us.Like or lump.:(

Leave the dealing/selling of it to registered firearm dealers, and forget any mention of it. To mention it would sink whatever chance you had

.

Let me say this again....!!
I have been exploring this on the possibility of it being done on a individual basis.I have never mentioned to them "commercial retail."
I mentioned dealers as logically;
They would be a persons first port of call here
If there was profit to be made from it,why arent they selling powder and reloading equipment??
BTW it is not illegal,nor is it illegal either if you are liscensed to have the ammo in its component parts .You are liscensed to posses a gun and ammo.
It doesnt state that the ammo must be assembled.

What is stopping it here is the law and the paperwork and to a certain degree health&saftey to import either on an individual or commercial basis and ergo the costs of doing such that would cover your expenses and make you a small profit.

If you go and look at the SI and study what is required I can assure you that as the law stands now it is going to require some very unique property to hand load a few rounds as a hobby,[and loads of cash on your part].
Maybe if you have a concrete bunker or a Midlands type set up,and you know as well as I do what sort of hassle that was for Midlands to build, convince those in power, and import the powder.:(

I am in the middle of nowhere with 250 meters plus to my nearest neighbours houses in any direction,with a stone cellar and they still wont consider it unlesss I put about 2 grands worth of a fire alarm system into it and build and rewire the entire frackin room to the SI acts.:rolleyes:
Hows that going to work out for those who live in the middle of a housing estate???

As I said ,if you can legally crack the import Hazmat requirements on a individual or commercial basis,get the paperwork squared away with all three governing depts on this,so it becomes a more easily understood and routine procedure and can figure out an approved storage that satisfies all three on both security and fire saftey,and is fire alarmed as required under the SI for under five hundred euros,and keeping the entire project costs within two thousand euros before you even consider reloading a single round...You will be a certified genius.:D

Longranger

Sorry guys,i've re-opened a can of worms and in hindsight i shouln't have. I know it's the same old same old but i am keen to follow it up. Having had said chat with said minister i can tell ye that although it wont change anything he is now more aware of our plight and from a sporting point of view he said he would not let it go unaddressed. I will keep at it,regardless of futility,cos if we don't say it then who will?

Longranger

Follow up,i'm meeting with him next monday morning so i'll let ye know. Roughly how many shooters are there is a question i'm likely to be asked,and do they care? Also,i am willing to travel to get names on paper if necessary at my own cost because this,in my mind,is a valid sport which should be acknowledged. Not being smart but there has been lots of talk about this subject here for a while but i think it's time for action by us as a group. Some of ye may say i'm wasting my time but feck it,i'm trying it anyway. I just need some figures to take to him next week. Can someone help me out please? Am I wasting my time with a paper petition? I don't do any target shooting yet cos i can't afford the range fees,(hopefully i soon will)but i do hunt A LOT,so reloading would suit me big time. Any thoughts or help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks all.
LR

Cass

@ Grizzly.

The issue is no matter what you say you mean, it reads as though you are looking to put the horse before the cart. Talking here or anywhere about having it set up in a commercial way is pointless, and only going to "scare" away any chance of being implemented on a personal basis.

I'm not saying don't inquire. I'm not saying to sit back, and if it happens grand. What concerns me is too many people taking the lead of their own accord, and ringing up the PTB with ideas, notions, or questions which may put the frighteners on them to the extent that they clamp down further on existing restrictions.

If it took years for a recognised organisation with the land, and discipline of shooting to warrant reloading, to get it what will it take for an average person to accomplish the same feat? Instead of people making contact with no idea of what is involved, and how to go about it why not approach those that have been through it. See what they had to do, the cost, the people you need to deal with, etc.

Contacting ministers on a personal level will accomplish nothing. Have a plan, and the backing of a large group of like minded people or even an NGB or two, and you are onto a winner. The midlands is not something that should be looked at from a "we must do what they done" point of view. They store for numerous members, and must perscribe to a much higher level of security. Who is to say that must be done for a person, with a much lower amount being held?


As said above i'm not here to defend or fight any corner. I have no need to do it. However over the years i have seen people that have written to Ministers, DoJ personnel, Gardaí, etc. with ideas/notions of their own without being fully informed, thinking it through or without understanding the consequences their words may have. I remember talking to a lad some years ago that told me my Sako TRg would not be licensed when the new licenses came in 2009 because it was a military rifle. He also stated that no "high powered" rifles should be allowed to be used at night (anything over .223). He showed me letters he had written to this end, and sent them to anyone that he could think off. What gave him the right to do this as though acting on behalf of all shooters?

I know you are not acting like this but it's an extreme case of what one person's opinions, and actions can do. Imagine if they gained some support at a ministerial level. If it was thought that this was the common belief among firearm owners.



@ Longranger - The topic is always emotive. I fully understand why. I would love to have reloading at home and be treated like most every other EU person that enjoys it. However i don't fully understand the politics or the thinking behind the DoJ/Gardaí so i don't embarrass myself by making contact with them. I'm a member of two NGBs, so i rely on them to voice my opinion for me. They will be listened more than me, and have the strength of their organisation (and it's members) to back up their requests/points.

In terms of a petition. An online would be much better, and have people sign it that way. Then print it off and show it. However it goes back to my point above about going into something without all the facts. You need to be able to answer clearly, and with facts the questions posed to you. If you don't you look foolish, and unprepared.

Longranger

Thanks Cass,i understand where you're coming from but my main beef is that every time we go on about an online petition the reply it negliable at best. Sorry but i think names on paper in ink written by hand seems to come across as more serious. If people here won't do it fair enough,I won't go ahead if it does more harm than good.

rowa

Another issue with reloading might be the gunshop owners might be less than keen, after all a box of 20 decent centrefire rifle bullets is over €30, sometimes well over. The money they might make selling reloading gear might not be worth the hassle of getting their storage up to spec.

Cass

Longranger wrote: »

Thanks Cass,i understand where you're coming from but my main beef is that every time we go on about an online petition the reply it negliable at best. Sorry but i think names on paper in ink written by hand seems to come across as more serious. If people here won't do it fair enough,I won't go ahead if it does more harm than good.

What i mean is do an online one i conjunction with a paper one. Then have both of them when going to meet anyone. Double your odds.

Croppy Boy

They're still issuing C49 certs allowing you to purchase and hold 10 lbs of explosive and 100 detonators for private use. If you had this what's stopping you reloading?

Cass

Has anyone gotten one. In the past 3 years? Not for black powder, but for standard propellant.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

@ Grizzly.

The issue is no matter what you say you mean, it reads as though you are looking to put the horse before the cart. Talking here or anywhere about having it set up in a commercial way is pointless, and only going to "scare" away any chance of being implemented on a personal basis.

Cass !!!
For the THIRD time...I am looking at doing this on an individual basis.
The reasons I am mentioning that it is NOT done here on a commercial basis is it is simply too expensive and commercially unviable for dealers to take it on and make a profit out of it without massive overheads.You can argue the toss as much as you like,but thats a simple economic fact!! There are plenty of dealers out there who have more contacts,monies and savvy than I would have and no one is doing this....Why ???

I'm not saying don't inquire. I'm not saying to sit back, and if it happens grand. What concerns me is too many people taking the lead of their own accord, and ringing up the PTB with ideas, notions, or questions which may put the frighteners on them to the extent that they clamp down further on existing restrictions.

Well that is one of the core problems of Irish society isnt it??"Go and find out and do it yourself and dont expect SFA help either....But dont do TOO much as then "we " the revelant groups in authorithy who know better will HAVE take over[and claim it was OUR idea] as you might muck it up as a silly little individual"!

Very patronising attitude I must say!

If it took years for a recognised organisation with the land, and discipline of shooting to warrant reloading, to get it what will it take for an average person to accomplish the same feat?

A lot of money,property and time on their hands to do it too.Same as an organisation will and did find out.

Instead of people making contact with no idea of what is involved, and how to go about it why not approach those that have been through it. See what they had to do, the cost, the people you need to deal with, etc.

Yes,all been done,seen and talked and applauded...Now,could it be moved onto individuals..Guess what?Told me pretty much the same thing as the DOJ.
And left out some pertinent info too.
Conflicting info is awful annoying to me personally.

Contacting ministers on a personal level will accomplish nothing.

Never did and a waste of time anyway.Here you need to talk to the monkeys not the organ grinder.Cos thats who the organ grinder will refer to anyway.:p

Have a plan, and the backing of a large group of like minded people or even an NGB or two, and you are onto a winner.

Yes,lets form another organisation...
"The Irish re loaders association" and appoint lots of people with fancy titles and be told exactly what I am saying here,if and when,you get to see anyone in the DOJ about this.
"No bother lads ye can reload ammo as individuals or as a group if you fulfill the criteria of these SI's,and have import permits and all the rest...."
Why do we need an organisation to be told the exact same thing a DOJ offical will gladly tell you over the phone or in a personal chat in 20 mins over a cup of coffee after seeing how a range is coming along??;)

The NARGC said "Irish shooters didnt want it...:rolleyes:Along with IPSC and cowboy action shooting.:rolleyes:

The target lads ,if you are shooting F Class and fair dues to them put the time and money,blood,sweat and tears into it and got it.
Only to be biatched at by all others[in typical Irish fashion] for doing it and being elitist and not looking out for "everyone else."

I'm not into F class,but I would like to be able to reload a few hundred 9mm pistol rounds IF it was any cheaper than buying commercial ammo.Or try working up a special load for deer hunting.Or reload shotgun shells that suit my antique semi autos that they stay functioning.That my personal forseen usage of it.

The others of the target shooting alphabet soup organisations..............
[Tumbleweed rolls past]...........

The midlands is not something that should be looked at from a "we must do what they done" point of view. They store for numerous members, and must perscribe to a much higher level of security.

But it is the bar set for a club or group on what is required.
Obviously depending on the scale of operations and members reloading.
BUT it is exactly what the SI also required too.As it is built to SI specs and somewhat overkill on AGS security. "Cameras watching cameras.";):P

Who is to say that must be done for a person, with a much lower amount being held?

Not you, or me, or the DOJ ,or the Minister..THE LAW as currently written in the SI 2007 says WHAT is required to store and deal with this in the ROI.
This is my entire point the SI is set up for industrial storage and manufacture,not individuals reloading and storing.
I cant make that any clearer.

. However over the years i have seen people that have written to Ministers, DoJ personnel, Gardaí, etc. with ideas/notions of their own without being fully informed, thinking it through or without understanding the consequences their words may have

.

And guess what??Alot of that is our own fault too! We get so much Bulsht thrown at us from ourselves,our clubs,our best mates,the bloke down the pub,the boards here,the AGS,the DOJ,and whoever else that half the time you wouldnt know whator who to belive.

It has been this way with reloading here in Ireland for the last 25 plus years,and I decided for myself to find out the truth and the actual situation about it here. And to see if it is actually feasable on an individual basis.
There has been enough hocus pocus, mystic and cabbalistic rubbish,if ,but ,maybe,under the sign of Capricorn nonsense spouted about reloading in Ireland that I,personally wanted to find out .There is no intent to destroy or upset anyone or undermine any organisation! :rolleyes:

I thought people might be actually intrested and wanting to know what the real situation is.But obviously I should let a "big organisation" do all this for me and us..After all who the Hell am I to ask questions around here???:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I'm sorry I have little to no faith in "organisations" especially Irish organisations doing anything for me.Bar taking money of course...

I remember talking to a lad some years ago that told me my Sako TRg would not be licensed when the new licenses came in 2009 because it was a military rifle. He also stated that no "high powered" rifles should be allowed to be used at night (anything over .223). He showed me letters he had written to this end, and sent them to anyone that he could think off.

Did he show you any written replies he got??Was your rifle banned?Can you shoot it at night??
All in all, I can see why his epistles ended up in everyones circular file.
Better it was coming from him than some organisation purpordely repersenting Irish shooters.
THAT would have had more weight in a negative way.
Witness reloading & NARGC comments on it:(

What gave him the right to do this as though acting on behalf of all shooters?

Who the Hell knows what goes thru a nutters minds?

I know you are not acting like this but it's an extreme case of what one person's opinions, and actions can do. Imagine if they gained some support at a ministerial level. If it was thought that this was the common belief among firearm owners

.

YES a VERY Extreme case!!:rolleyes:which on lots of things have been espoused by Irish shooting organisations as "unwanted by THEIR members"...
Like IPSC,reloading,cowboy action shooting,semi auto rifles,centre fire handguns....Need I go on??
TBH our organisations are prime examples of Churchills quip on appeasers as a man throwing all others to the crocodiles in the hope that when they arrive for him they are full up.:mad:

And you need n't worry nor anyone else out there don't need to get their panties in a twist.There is a law already there to deal with it,and it doesnt matter what WE say or hope or think it says ...It is there,you want to reload,as an individual or a club go follow the steps of the law and SI and off you go ..Whether it is one or one million rounds its all the same to the PTB.:)

I asked a question from a offical in the DOJ.
I was given the facts and info from a professional who deals with it on a daily basis would be required and what acts and SIs to go and read up on and to take the first step which is get your premises registerd with your county council.Fire cheif dropped out and told me his requirements to register it as a premises to store powder.
They were too expensive for me...And the cost would be better employed in buying factory ammo which would keep me shooting for three years.:D
Economics won out for me.But if somone wants to carry the torch forward and has a lot of time and monies and an ideal premises to do it....I hope thy do..

However i don't fully understand the politics or the thinking behind the DoJ/Gardaí

There is NO politics or malicious thinking behind it...There are TWO pieces of law, the explosives act 1872 and the SI 2007 storage of powder act.They are not going to change it because Mr Cass and Mr Grizzly want it so changed to an exceptional case for their own benefit.
Were the DOJ being malignent would they have granted Midlands the permission to import powder and reload?Would they not refuse some re enacting lad down in Wexford his 2lbs of BP for his repro cannon to recreate Vinegar hill?
They will consider,and I belive them on this any application for a powder import liscense,provided the applicant fulfills the criteria on safe storage,transport and all the rest..Whether they grant it is another matter...:)
Not to mind their attitude that they are there for the security of the State and not to promote shooting sports..Only people making politics out of this is us shooters and our organisations...

Grizzly 45

Croppy Boy wrote: »

They're still issuing C49 certs allowing you to purchase and hold 10 lbs of explosive and 100 detonators for private use. If you had this what's stopping you reloading?

Did they mention the minor fact of getting this into the ROI is going to require some pretty expensive transport and Garda escort?
Or that you require a secure and approved storage facility?
Or where are you going to use this explosive and detonators??[you need primers for reloading:)]
Thats more for quarry work or road building.:)

Cass

I had a big reply written out then deleted it. As said above i haven't the heart for this carry on anymore.


I'll leave it at this. I never said, nor do i think, what you have bastardised my words into. That is you twisting my words, and then accusing me of being patronising. You want to go that route, knock yourself out. I won't offer you the platform to continue on your "fight the power" rants.



I'm out.

Grizzly 45

Cass,
Have a cup of coffee and a chill pill...FS! :rolleyes:
I dont know how you are suddenly taking this as a personal attack!!
When I mean a patronising attitude that wasnt aimed at you personally by at the way,but at organisations who would and do act like that here,when somone else has done the spadework for them.

And how the FK you get to that "I am fighting da power,"when I have said all along I have been following their advice and edicts and directions,impossible as they might be to do so.
Unless of course you mean that "da power" in this case are the all knowing benevolent shooting organisations that have an oh so good track record on these issues with the PTB and dont want to say it outright?????:mad:
We have only been discussing it here on boards off and on for the last decade or so...Think they might get the hint by now???

No I am not going to knock myself out as I have been down this route as far as I can go with the current legislation and current finance and have posted my experiance of it here.I'll leave others to go and run into it head first with blind good intentions.:rolleyes:

Do call back and let us know if you have any different response or experiance or get further down this road.
I'll bet that anyone that goes and actually bothers to read the SI 2007 and explosive act of 1872 first off,will see that I am simply stating the facts ,and no amount of people throwing their teddies out of their prams and feeling that they are being slighted is not going to change this at all.

Sheesh! And then people wonder why we are so fragmented and polarised in the shooting community.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I decided for myself to find out the truth and the actual situation about it

I'm curious Grizzly, did you find out anything through this rather difficult process that's different from what you were told on here in 2008? Or did you find out anything that differs from the earlier mentions that were made of reloading in 2005 and 2006 (when stuff was a bit confusing because they were thinking of changing the law, but they then decided not to, as explained in here and here and here and again here)?




ps. It's a little depressing to see that my opinion on all this hasn't changed much since 2008 either...
...and that IRLConor's advised approach back then still makes as much sense today...
...but that we apparently decided to throw away the reasonable approach and go with the shouty approach.

Hasn't that worked ever so well and made so much progress in the intervening five years? :rolleyes:

Croppy Boy

Re-enactors and punt men are getting them for black powder. The detonators are the percussion caps. The cert is for holding the powder, there doesn't seem to be any conditions on storage. Getting the stuff is, of course, another matter.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

I'm curious Grizzly, did you find out anything through this rather difficult process that's different from what you were told on here in 2008? Or did you find out anything that differs from the earlier mentions that were made of reloading in 2005 and 2006 (when stuff was a bit confusing because they were thinking of changing the law, but they then decided not to, as explained in here and here and here and again here)?




ps. It's a little depressing to see that my opinion on all this hasn't changed much since 2008 either...
...and that IRLConor's advised approach back then still makes as much sense today...
...but that we apparently decided to throw away the reasonable approach and go with the shouty approach.

Hasn't that worked ever so well and made so much progress in the intervening five years? :rolleyes:

Sparks,
I dont know what you are asking here at all??
Are you trying to say I'm talking ****e in a nice way??:)
Or are you genuinely trying to find out has there been any progress on this bill???
If it is the former,I'm not and would have no reason to do so and this has been my personal experiance of it sofar,and to sumarise it is simply.

. It is legal to reload here provided you can meet the criteria of safe storage and reloading facilities as laid down in the SI 2007 explosive storage act.Which seems to have surpassed the explosive act of 1872.

. It is virtually impossible for a private citizen,unless they have a custom built facility,a lot of money and free time to do this within the current law,as the SI is geared towards commercial manufacture and storage of all types of explosives from nitro glycerine down to fireworks and sparklers.As nitro powder is lumped in here as an explosive and not a propellant it falls under the same conditions as all of the above.
The SI and act makes perfect sense if you were reloading commercially or storing tons of the stuff,but it is a total overkill for saftey in what we would be looking for.

.Logically if the Govt have already got a"working law" in place and it works satisfactory[for them and one commercial explosive company in the ROI] they arent going to be in any rush to change it for a special intrest group,namely Irish gun owners.Not to mind ,we dont seem to know what we want ourselves or who is for it or against it.

.Dealers seemingly dont want to know about it because it is a mega PITA to import into the ROI in viable amounts for resale to the shooting public.You cant store it in your normal ammo strong room either.It has to be seperate and away from any dwellings or the shop if you live over it.So the storage is going to be a costly PITA as well before you sell one gramme of powder.

.I dont think it is sound economic sense to put a dedicated 2 thousand euro fire alarm in my cellar to mind 4kgs of powder,when and if it did finally cook off,my house would be so well ablaze that 4kgs of powder would be moot and academic when they decide to cook off in the stone walled floor and fire proofed ceiling cellar.
Nor to rewire the entire cellar with spark and explosive proof wiring lights and fittings for the same amount. This BTW being a pre requsite of the law and the fire cheif to get part of my premises registerd as a powder storage.Thats even before you could talk to the DOJ about import liscenses and such.

.In short if you want to reload here in Ireland in 2013 and be able to do it cheaply and keep your sanity,join Midlands and take up F Class.
If you want to continue where I left off.I'd advise plenty of cash to build or modify a premises ,prefably someplace not near other houses,walkways,canals,roads or lots of other people,and one with either a concrete bunker for a cellar or a disused pillbox outside ,or a seriously well earth embanked container at least ,depending on how much powder you want to store 30 meters from your house.With whatever security is required by the Gaurds.

Alot of patience dealing with beaucratic paperwork of your CC fire dept,the Gaurds on security and importing the stuff,and the DOJ in granting and being happy with you having it.

That's what I have personally learned sofar from all this. Its legal to do,but technically impossible because of the onerous regulations as an individual,unless you are filthy rich living miles from nowhere with your own bunker.:(

As for any advance in this proposed legislation...I have honestly no idea and wasnt asking but am more intrested in seeing was it possible under current legislation.

Grizzly 45

Croppy Boy wrote: »

Re-enactors and punt men are getting them for black powder. The detonators are the percussion caps. The cert is for holding the powder, there doesn't seem to be any conditions on storage. Getting the stuff is, of course, another matter.

I don't want to even KNOW about black powder!!:eek:It is another utter and total can-of-worms.
Think the storage for nitro powder is bad?? You could store C4 and semtex here easier than BP in any use able quantity.
True they are getting it alright,and the DOJ does grant the import liscenses,but I would reckon it is a "once a year" type thing for demos or whatever where it is all gone by the end of the demo,so no storage issue and it would be intresting to know how they bring it down to the ROI.

Are there still genuine punt gun men here in Ireland who hunt with one of those yokes??Would really love to see one of those guns being fired or go out with fowling with one of those lads.:)

Croppy Boy

There are several punt men around the Slobs in Wexford, I'm told there are others in Cork, can't say anything about the rest of the country.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks,
I dont know what you are asking here at all??
Are you trying to say I'm talking ****e in a nice way??:)

Sort of, but not in the way you think

I'm trying to gently point out that you've just gone to a lot of time and trouble to learn first-hand what you were told here almost five years ago; as far as I can tell from reading your account of it, nothing that was posted here back then was wrong or differed from what you've since found out. I know I talked off-boards to IRLConor about it quite a bit and what he said then is exactly what you're saying now.

No big deal really, I mean it's your time and money and all that and it might have been interesting to do; it's just that you happened to say :

We get so much Bulsht thrown at us from ourselves,our clubs,our best mates,the bloke down the pub,the boards here,the AGS,the DOJ,and whoever else that half the time you wouldnt know whator who to belive.

And that didn't really seem fair to me. Since, you know, what you were told here wasn't wrong. We might not be the be-all and end-all of all things, but we do tend to be reasonably good on the bull**** to useful **** ratio

I know there's been little progress on the bill by the way, but that's down to shenanigans we've covered quite a bit elsewhere, and like yourself, I don't see how we're going to get past them in the near future. I think we're currently stuck until folks come back to the table to talk instead of to thump it.

Grizzly 45

Sparks,
well as you know the saying everyone talks in Ireland as it is free. I accept that the BS to truth ratio isnt bad here, and I didnt mean that Boards was publishing BS about this either.
Thing is lots of pertinent factual info gets lost in the Irish shooting community in the chaff and static put out by everyone and for whatever reasons,and that does happen to a certain degree here too, that in the end you might start beliving black is white,and who you talk to might actually tell you its maroon in fact..

So I figured the only to satisfy myself was to just go out and try it.
Disregard all info as questionable and start afresh and find out myself what is truth or fiction.
That way I had personal first hand info of whether this is do able or not on an individual level,and be able to say I can concur with point A or disagree with point B if this ever came up again.
After all ultimately all the theory has to be put into practise one day.
It cost me nothing bar a few emails and sending some maps and now I know exactly what is required.

On that point of organisations coming back.Do we need that one back on this subject??After all it was them that said Irish shooters in their organisation didnt need or want it??Are they going to have a different opinion on this?Otherwise it will be another table thumping and rattle from pram chucking session.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So I figured the only to satisfy myself was to just go out and try it.
Disregard all info as questionable and start afresh and find out myself what is truth or fiction.

And did anything you learn differ from what you were told on here?

dCorbus

Sparks wrote: »

And did anything you learn differ from what you were told on here?

I wouldn't knock a lad for going off and doing his own research - even if it concurs with what you and IRLConor told him years ago. We all know that (despite the relatively low BS/Fact Ratio on here), nothing beats doing your own research - and not simply relying on what one reads on Boards as gospel-fact. But I think you know that