Season 3: Episode 8 * Have NOT read the books*MOD NOTE POST #1

Kirby

Lemlin wrote: »

The best part of the episode was no Robb. He should of took Sam with him though. I find that storyline hugely boring.

Yeah. Frost zombies attacking and being killed by ancient daggers, armies of crow's attacking you....it's all so boring and humdrum! Don't know about you, but that happens atleast three times a week to me. Maybe even four times!

Bacchus

Great episode. Not that I thought that last 2 episodes were poor, but this was a step up and things are looking good for the last 2 episodes.

For me, a big part of it was Tyrion being back to his best. The whole wedding feast scene was fantastic, from his drunkeness, to the c*ck joke, his reaction when he realised he went too far and finally, his rambling while leaving were great. Loved that story of puking during sex... "come, I'll tell you more to put you in the mood"

Infact, the scenes in Kings Landing were the strongest they have been since Season 2. All those tip toeing politics coming to a head with the Lanister kids clearly not happy with the situation. Cersei had a nice put down on Margery. Jeoffrey reminded us all again why we hate him so much. That moment when he took the stool from the alter was heartless and shows just how much he enjoys tormenting people.

The Dany story was strong again. Nice to see that she doesn't flaunt the dragons to intimidate all her "guests". The 3 mercenaries were interesting to watch. I love when the show shows you glimpses of a world outside the main characters and these guys sat right into that world with ease. Lots more "Villa Morgulus" (sp?) popping up around the place The attention to detail to these small things lift the show up a level (for me anyway). I can see her season ending liberating this city as her first real conquest (or some twist in her attempt to do so).

The best scenes though were with Sam up in the north. That was so well done with the crows. As they were in the shack, you could hear the noise slowly building outside and then that moment when they fell silent and you hear the White Walker in the forest... brilliant tension. Also, great to have the theories regarding the dragon glass (is that what he called it?) confirmed. It is a weapon against the White Walkers. I'm guessing as the story gets bigger and bigger over the seasons it's going to be dragons vs White Walkers.

allybhoy

oxygen_temp wrote: »

I'm surprised people liked this episode so much. I thought it was a slow one myself, I liked it, but definitely slow, and possibly a little bit fillerish.

I understand people wanted a break from the Theon story, and IMO the sooner that story wraps up the better. But very little happened here... a wedding we knew was coming, a white walker attack, one scene of Ayra and the Hound, some vague magic, and the beheading of two characters we had just met.

I hope the last two episodes are crackers

Kind of agree with this. It was a much better episode compared to the last two but there are only 2 left and there are still a lot of eggs in the air that need to be acknowledged or resolved, Greyjoy is a good example and that needs to be wrapped up sharpish as its just dragging on, he is held captive and tortured, then escapes then he doesnt escape and is tortured more etc etc.

There are also too many people just wandering the realm the last few episodes with no sign of conclusion or story progression. Bran needs to get whereever he is going, Kingslayer should be at Kings Landing, Sam needs to get to the wall, Arya needs to be reunited with her family, littlefinger is also off sailing away somewere and Rob and the wildlings need to "attack" the crows. Thats a lot to do in 2 episodes especially when you add in the storyline of Whitewalkers\ Dany \ Rob \ Stannis etc.

I have every faith in the directors that they will set everything up nicely for next season, but when I look back at season 2 and compare it the 8 episodes so far I cant help but feel slightly disapointed. Hopefully the next two will make up for it.

Lemlin

Kirby wrote: »

Yeah. Frost zombies attacking and being killed by ancient daggers, armies of crow's attacking you....it's all so boring and humdrum! Don't know about you, but that happens atleast three times a week to me. Maybe even four times!

I didn't find that terribly exciting tbh. Just my opinion. I found Tyrion's verbal battering of Joffrey more entertaining.

Sam to me is a very humdrum storyline. You may argue it was exciting last night but the build up to this week has been long and drawn out.

Handsome Bob

I wouldn't say Sam's story is necessarily boring, but they're doing it a terribly hamfisted way. I mean I don't think there was a need to end the episode with Sam's story when he was absent for all of but 7 minutes of it.

MadYaker

Sam is not a major/central character. This show is great but it suffers from to many concurrent story lines causing everything to progress at a snails pace. They could have easily left Sams story out altogether.

Witcher

They couldn't leave any of the storylines out. They will all become relevant later.

lynski

MadYaker wrote: »

Sam is not a major/central character. This show is great but it suffers from to many concurrent story lines causing everything to progress at a snails pace. They could have easily left Sams story out altogether.

I seriously doubt that. if ned starks death taught us anything it is that no one is safe and nothing is impossible.

Paddy Cow

civis_liberalis wrote: »

The lad playing King Cúntface is doing an excellent job

LOL Best description of him ever I knew he was Irish but it was still a shock when watching an interview and he spoke with an Irish accent and was really a decent fellow with not a hint of Joffery about him.

KerranJast wrote: »

He's an evil little **** but I found myself actually feeling sympathy for Cersei of all people. The one thing she's shown above all else is her love for her kids and if something nasty happens to Joffs then I hate to think of her reaction.

Cersei has always been very bitter about being born a woman. It meant that she had no say in what direction she would take in life. She hated being married off to Robert and on their wedding night he called her by a different name. She loves those kids fiercely as they are the only thing in the world that are truely hers. As much as she is Queen Mothercúntface, if anything happened to Joffery she would be devestated.

K_user wrote: »

Tywin, who would mess with that man? A single glance was enough to silence the crowd.

Tywin is awesome. He reminds me of Archie Mitchell in Eastenders. Completely ruthless and would sell out any member of his family to get what he wants. He is brilliant to watch but I wouldn't want to cross someone like him in real life. The only person who could be considered in any way an equal to him would be Margaery's grandmother. Imagine how brilliant it would be if they got together and were King and Queen. It might make for a pretty boring show though as they would squash any rebellion before it even began

Paddy Cow

KerranJast wrote: »

He's an evil little **** but I found myself actually feeling sympathy for Cersei of all people. The one thing she's shown above all else is her love for her kids and if something nasty happens to Joffs then I hate to think of her reaction.

Actually I take it all back. I just started watching season 1 again and in the second episode when Jamie pushes Bran out the window and he is in a coma, Cersei is telling Catylen about how she lost her first born child. It was a boy with dark hair who looked exactly like Robert and he died from a "fever" :mad:

Hyzepher

I've just watched some of the previous episodes again and I am a little confused about the Freys. What is their role in Westeros and why is getting their daughters married into the Stark/Tully clans so important to them. It's seems to be something that has an undisclosed motive - but I could have missed it or forgotten about it.

Rosy Posy

Hyzepher wrote: »

I've just watched some of the previous episodes again and I am a little confused about the Freys. What is their role in Westeros and why is getting their daughters married into the Stark/Tully clans so important to them. It's seems to be something that has an undisclosed motive - but I could have missed it or forgotten about it.

They own an important bridge and make their money by charging tolls to cross it. They seem a bit scummy- Waldo Frey is ancient and has recently married a teenage girl. He has lots of kids, they're all a bit ugly and simple looking. I think his eagerness to marry into the more noble families is very Mrs Bennett-esque: he has too many children to give them all a piece of his fortune so if he makes a few good matches he can throw some more of his kids into the path of rich or high born spouses. It's naked social advancement afaics.

keps

Rob Stark needs to cross the river( Green Fork) at the Twins and the crossing there is controlled by the Freys.
In exchange for allowing this and also his belated allegiance – Lord Walder Frey demands(well ‘negotiates’) the marriage of one of his daughters to Rob.
Which daughter it is to be- will be decided after the war is concluded.

Lemlin

Just one question from the episode.

Stannis said 3 names when he threw the leeches into the fire. Now, I know from the history videos on Youtube, that he helped quash Balon Greyjoy's uprising before so that is why he said him.

I also know why he said Joffrey but why did he say Robb? I thought Ned and the Starks supported Stannis' claim for the throne.

I always thought that Robb was only interested in the North and he and Stannis were sort of allies fighting to stop the Lannisters.

Mr.Prodston

Lemlin wrote: »

Just one question from the episode.

Stannis said 3 names when he threw the leeches into the fire. Now, I know from the history videos on Youtube, that he helped quash Balon Greyjoy's uprising before so that is why he said him.

I also know why he said Joffrey but why did he say Robb? I thought Ned and the Starks supported Stannis' claim for the throne.

I always thought that Robb was only interested in the North and he and Stannis were sort of allies fighting to stop the Lannisters.

When Stannis met Renly for the chats before the smoke monster did the business he saw Cat there and she was trying to get Renly to side with them. Plus while Robb's main motivation may be the North and destroying the Lannisters it would by default free up the Iron Throne and chances are he could probably claim it if it was lying idle. If you look at it from Stannis' point of view anyone who isn't with him is against him and Robb isn't "with" him and seeing Cat conversing with Renly wouldn't enthuse him towards the Starks.

Stannis is stubborn and believes the throne is his by right (he's not necessarily wrong either) so anybody helping him is just doing their duty to the rightful king and the realm in his eyes.

(I've read the books so just answering the question objectively, if that's a problem I can erase this no problem.) Oh and see Lemlin I've more interests than just Mickey Turner :eek: :pac:

Gbear

Lemlin wrote: »

Stannis said 3 names when he threw the leeches into the fire. Now, I know from the history videos on Youtube, that he helped quash Balon Greyjoy's uprising before so that is why he said him.

He said Balon Greyjoy because he basically declared war on the rest of the 7 kingdoms in season 2.

5 kings - Robb, Stannis, Joffrey, Renly, Balon

Renly's dead so the 3 leeches were for the other 3 usurpers.

Hyzepher

keps wrote: »

Rob Stark needs to cross the river( Green Fork) at the Twins and the crossing there is controlled by the Freys.
In exchange for allowing this and also his belated allegiance – Lord Walder Frey demands(well ‘negotiates’) the marriage of one of his daughters to Rob.
Which daughter it is to be- will be decided after the war is concluded.

Yeah I understood those episodes but it just seems odd that he would now want to conclude a marriage to a Tully in the midst of a war and everyone seems to just put the war on hold to accommodate him - including the Lannisters who don't seem to think this is a prime advantage to overrun Robb especially since some of his army have left him

Witcher

Stannis is the rightful king, Robb is basically threatening to take away nearly half his kingdom.

podgemonster

Blay wrote: »

Stannis is the rightful king, Robb is basically threatening to take away nearly half his kingdom.

Blasphemy!!!! Traitor!! There is only one King!!:mad:

Joffery of the House Baratheon the first of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm!

Witcher

podgemonster wrote: »

Blasphemy!!!! Traitor!! There is only one King!!:mad:

Joffery of the House Baratheon the first of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm!

The Lord of Light take you!

Only one of them took to the field at the Blackwater:pac:

Anachrony

Lemlin wrote: »

I always thought that Robb was only interested in the North and he and Stannis were sort of allies fighting to stop the Lannisters.

Robb would be happy to strike that bargain, but Stannis is an inflexible moron who won't compromise by giving away even part of his rightful kingdom in order to actually win the war.

pixelburp

Anachrony wrote: »

Robb would be happy to strike that bargain, but Stannis is an inflexible moron who won't compromise by giving away even part of his rightful kingdom in order to actually win the war.

Yeah, I think "inflexible" is the right word to use when it comes to Stannis. He seems to operate by his own, rigid code that broadly resembles honour, but is really just a cold brutality masquerading as fairness (and one that nobody can realistically ever live up to). It's no wonder Melissandre finds it so easy to manipulate him; rigid forms are easier to direct, and he's such an unbendable straight arrow.

I actually imagine the rule of Stannis would be more brutal than that of Joffreys; he's so utterly dour & intractable I doubt he'd put up with even the most minor of failures, resorting instead to the sword each time. Just look at how he treated (and is treating) Davos

K_user

pixelburp wrote: »

I actually imagine the rule of Stannis would be more brutal than that of Joffreys; he's so utterly dour & intractable I doubt he'd put up with even the most minor of failures, resorting instead to the sword each time. Just look at how he treated (and is treating) Davos

Have to disagree there. Stannis is dour, but take away the lord of light aspect and he's fairly straight forward. Just dont cross him.

Joffery on the other hand likes to tie women up and shoot them for kicks. Hes a phyco pure and simple.

K_user

Had the things gone differently in the past, I actually think Tywin would make for a good ruler. No one would mess with him and he has a very direct way of getting things done.

Dubhlinner

Hyzepher wrote: »

Yeah I understood those episodes but it just seems odd that he would now want to conclude a marriage to a Tully in the midst of a war and everyone seems to just put the war on hold to accommodate him - including the Lannisters who don't seem to think this is a prime advantage to overrun Robb especially since some of his army have left him

The Tullys are effectively regional royalty, they're like the Starks or Tyrells of the riverlands.

As Robb said its the best match the Freys have ever had. Walder's not going to risk another betrayal. He has a huge army and a strategic base - theyre far better leverage during a war than when its all over

PS I'm a book reader but all the above has been noted in the show

lynski

i re-watched tonight and i think the mention of the raynes of castle mare (sp?) is going to be a prescient conversation - i have a feeling that there is a rout in the offing, at least one set of characters are going to get wiped off the face of the earth.
Also, wondering about the notion that tywin is a decent sort after all - he sent his son to impregnate a 14 yr old. not to romance or seduce her, but impregnate her. He has no regard beyond the usefulness for the small folk, he is sending his daughter to be impregnated by a man he knows to be gay, he has form and I think he would wipe out anyone who dared stand in his way, there does not appear to be any sentiment there.

I was also wondering where melisandre is getting her info? AFAIK only Cersei knows who Gendry is? people know he is wanted by the kingsguard, but not even his old master knew his parentage? Or did I miss something? I can imagine that Verys might know but he hates magic so he will not be helping her, someone else then? Unless their lord of light is the one, but I am not so sure. maybe littlefinger might know? and how did she even find him and not know who arya was? anyway pondering too much i think. oh and finally, i think stannis would be very put out to hear she consorted with the BWOB, I think his inflexibility and tunnelvision would make themtraitors to him and he would not be happy with her for not telling him where they are.

lynski

keps wrote: »

Rob Stark needs to cross the river( Green Fork) at the Twins and the crossing there is controlled by the Freys.
In exchange for allowing this and also his belated allegiance – Lord Walder Frey demands(well ‘negotiates’) the marriage of one of his daughters to Rob.
Which daughter it is to be- will be decided after the war is concluded.

I thought arya was also betroth as part of that deal?
when they made the deal Robb was to be brother to a queen, in Sensa. now with a tully they have an uncle of a king as kin.

K_user

lynski wrote: »

Also, wondering about the notion that tywin is a decent sort after all - he sent his son to impregnate a 14 yr old. not to romance or seduce her, but impregnate her. He has no regard beyond the usefulness for the small folk, he is sending his daughter to be impregnated by a man he knows to be gay, he has form and I think he would wipe out anyone who dared stand in his way, there does not appear to be any sentiment there.

I wouldnt go as far as saying that he is decent, quite the opposite in fact. Hes a b*st*rd through and through. But he is an excellent politician. A formidable leader. The man demands respect.

Compare him to some of the others:

Joffery: nutcase
Stannis: good war leader, but as peace time king?
Rob: has no experience. Hasnt even run his own holdings yet.
Danny: depends on luck, fate and for others to under estimate her.

Even King Robert was a joke. He drank, hunted, whored and bankrupted the crown.

Say what you like about Tywin, but he'd get the job done.

Syferus

Really starting to feel like they could have covered far more than half the third book in one season. Maybe it's time they find new creases in the book to use as anchor points for the seasons because even though every single episode has been very good viewing there's way too much waiting around. It's almost like a bad parody that we still don't know what happened at Wintefell in season 2.

Oh, and Sam finally manning up was great but it kinda took away from it when he ran off without the bloody blade.

Kirby

K_user wrote: »

I wouldnt go as far as saying that he is decent, quite the opposite in fact. Hes a b*st*rd through and through. But he is an excellent politician. A formidable leader. The man demands respect.

Compare him to some of the others:

Joffery: nutcase
Stannis: good war leader, but as peace time king?
Rob: has no experience. Hasnt even run his own holdings yet.
Danny: depends on luck, fate and for others to under estimate her.

Even King Robert was a joke. He drank, hunted, whored and bankrupted the crown.

Say what you like about Tywin, but he'd get the job done.

You describe Robert as a joke and yet of all the characters, he was one of the few to actually change his fate. He wasn't handed a kingdom like Joffrey......he took it. Rob and Joffrey fell into their roles by the dictates of other people. The same can be said for Stannis. He is only the "rightful heir" because of who he is related to....fate. By no doing of his own. And all he has achieved so far is to get his fleet sunk.

I find your analysis of the characters baffling. Dany relies on luck and fate? How is that different from the rest? They all do. Tywin, Rob and Stannis were born into their roles. They weren't average men who rose up. Their fate was decided by being born into the family they were.

The same could be said of Dany. She could easily have just stayed Drogo's whore but she did something about it. She could have married the rich fraud from Qarth. She could have kept her army of slaves instead of freeing them. She is making her own fate. Luck is only a small part of it.

Bacchus

lynski wrote: »

I was also wondering where melisandre is getting her info? AFAIK only Cersei knows who Gendry is? people know he is wanted by the kingsguard, but not even his old master knew his parentage? Or did I miss something?

Didn't she mention the Lord of Light leading her to him. When in doubt, the Lord of Light did it

Syferus wrote: »

Really starting to feel like they could have covered far more than half the third book in one season. Maybe it's time they find new creases in the book to use as anchor points for the seasons because even though every single episode has been very good viewing there's way too much waiting around. It's almost like a bad parody that we still don't know what happened at Wintefell in season 2.

We (the non-book readers) do know what happened. Any blanks are fairly easy to fill in. The Greyjoy men betrayed Theon (we saw this) and handed him over to the Boltons (pretty much a dead cert that who has him given the banners we've seen). Now, either the Boltons or the Greyjoys ransacked Winterfell. I suspect it was the Boltons, initially searching for the Stark kids and then burning the place down in anger... or cos they're d*cks and that's what d*cks do. They'd be safe to blame the Greyjoys and Rob Stark would be none the wiser.

If you are alluding to any further twists/shocks in the events at Winterfell due to having read the books, kindly stop posting in the non-book threads.

Syferus wrote: »

Oh, and Sam finally manning up was great but it kinda took away from it when he ran off without the bloody blade.

Huge facepalm moment there. You left behinf the weapon you just found out kills the formidable White Walkers. I guess, panic took over at what he just saw and all the crows chasing them.

Bacchus

Kirby wrote: »

I find your analysis of the characters baffling. Dany relies on luck and fate? How is that different from the rest? They all do. Tywin, Rob and Stannis were born into their roles. They weren't average men who rose up. Their fate was decided by being born into the family they were.

The same could be said of Dany. She could easily have just stayed Drogo's whore but she did something about it. She could have married the rich fraud from Qarth. She could have kept her army of slaves instead of freeing them. She is making her own fate. Luck is only a small part of it.

I agree mostly with what you are saying (regarding Stanis, Rob et. al.) but Dany does enjoy a larger amount of luck than the others. She is cunning and makes best use of what is available to her but things have routinely gone her way, even the bad things that happen have ultimately led to greater things for her.

Marrying Drogo provided her with dragon eggs.
Drogos death led to her dragons being born.
The dragons gained her access to Quath.
The dragons freed her from Quath.
Her negotiations for the Unsullied army were going down the sh*tter until she threw a dragon into the deal.

All this happened because her brother "sold" her to Drogo and she received dragon eggs as a gift.

Also, her latest "victory", winning 2000 new soldiers because one of the generals has the hots for her.

She has a lot of strengths, she is opportunistic and she is good at developing loyalty and devotion in her ranks but she has had a lot of luck to get where she is.

pixelburp

K_user wrote: »

Have to disagree there. Stannis is dour, but take away the lord of light aspect and he's fairly straight forward. Just dont cross him.

Joffery on the other hand likes to tie women up and shoot them for kicks. Hes a phyco pure and simple.

It's not just the Lord of Light stuff, he's straightforward in that he's completely ruthless and brutal, utterly lacking in anything resembling empathy. Everyone in his close circle has been mistreated or brutalized, via his personal insecurities or his fairly brutal code of honor. Unlike the Lannisters, family seems to mean little to Stannis beyond as a means to an heir - hell, he had no qualms about having his brother killed; sure he raised an army against him, but that cold ruthlessness runs through all the other decisions Stannis makes. Compare that with the Lannisers, where to Tywin family seems to mean everything

I think how Stannis treats his daughter, in comparison with Tywin is interesting: she gets locked in a tower & forgotten because of her disfigurement, whereas Tyrion - himself regarded as a freak - still gets broadly treated as one of the family, albeit a pariah; he still has power & status despite this. Now, I did say earlier that Stannis' daughter is probably mistreated based on her gender and potential as a mother, but I think the point still holds - Stannis saw his kid as useless so just locked her away. His utter lack of compassion during her brief scene with him was so illustrative of this.

Stannis seems like the type of man who'll make a decision and commit to it, no matter how horrible the deed. And his social conscience is no greater than that of Joffreys - so whilst the King is an impulsive & irrational wretch, it seems like those below him are capable of working around his obvious psychosis. Joffrey seems happy to simply enjoy the trappings of power without having to try too hard, whereas I could see Stannis actually ruling the kingdom, punishing dissidence & failure with a more direct and ruthless efficiency.

All conjecture of course. Ultimately, the only person who seems even remotely fit to rule is Danaerys, who appears to have the right mix of pragmatism, compassion and intelligence. Though I have come to the conclusion that regardless who sits on the throne, the 7 Kingdoms is a cluster*ck of nation-states and there's simply no way an absolute monarch can rule them as a centralized power. Clearly Westeros needs to invent federalism!

krudler

K_user wrote: »

I wouldnt go as far as saying that he is decent, quite the opposite in fact. Hes a b*st*rd through and through. But he is an excellent politician. A formidable leader. The man demands respect.

Compare him to some of the others:

Joffery: nutcase
Stannis: good war leader, but as peace time king?
Rob: has no experience. Hasnt even run his own holdings yet.
Danny: depends on luck, fate and for others to under estimate her.

Even King Robert was a joke. He drank, hunted, whored and bankrupted the crown.

Say what you like about Tywin, but he'd get the job done.

Tywin is an absolute arse, but a smart, ruthless, someone you'd like to have on your side kind of an arse. That's what i love about this show, everyone has dodgy morals.

iamanengine

Hodor for King

I love how all his speculation on what's going to happen in relation to the rightful king and the war will be almost completely irrelevant once the White Walkers show their face. There is going to need to be an outrageous amount of unity between the so called Kings if they are to stand any chance!

Ah, how I love thee, Game of Thrones.

loveisdivine

iamanengine wrote: »

Hodor for King

I love how all his speculation on what's going to happen in relation to the rightful king and the war will be almost completely irrelevant once the White Walkers show their face. There is going to need to be an outrageous amount of unity between the so called Kings if they are to stand any chance!

Ah, how I love thee, Game of Thrones.

Thats what I keep thinking too. I can just picture Joffrey coming face to face with a whitewalker, or a dragon! Would be awesome! To see their faces when they realise none of the politics matter at all!

K_user

Kirby wrote: »

You describe Robert as a joke and yet of all the characters, he was one of the few to actually change his fate. He wasn't handed a kingdom like Joffrey......he took it. Rob and Joffrey fell into their roles by the dictates of other people. The same can be said for Stannis. He is only the "rightful heir" because of who he is related to....fate. By no doing of his own. And all he has achieved so far is to get his fleet sunk.

Please, first understand that my "analysis" of the characters were simple bullet points. So I understand were you are coming from.

Describing Robert as a "Joke" was harsh, unfair, but somewhat true. You are correct Robert did change his fate. He took control of the Kingdom. But he only did it with the help of all the banner men that fought with him. Such as the well respected and very powerful Ned Stark.

Robert himself was a high born noble of one of the most powerful houses in the 7 Kingdoms. As such he lived a life of privilege. He was well educated and schooled in the way of the world. When younger he was a great warrior and before taking the crown his biggest claim to fame was killing Rhaegar Targaryen.

As King he was to be feared. He had his own banner men, his brother Stannis's support, he had the North under Ned Stark, was married to Cersei Lannister, his younger brother was "friendly" with the Tyrell's and he wasn't personally afraid of anyone.

But as a ruler he was a joke. He admitted himself that winning the throne was far more fun than ruling it. He drank, he whored, he spent, he borrowed, he hunted. All major tasks were in effect decided apon by his small council. Meanwhile his wife bore three children, all fathered by her twin brother, Jaime Lannister. And he didn't seem to notice, or care.

So IMHO Robert was an excellent peacekeeper, but a terrible choice for overall ruler.


And Stannis has done more than have his ships sunk. He is an accomplished warrior and was very much feared along the Narrow Sea. Had it not been for the dragonsfire, he would have taken KL in one swoop. Not someone to be discounted.

Kirby wrote: »

I find your analysis of the characters baffling. Dany relies on luck and fate? How is that different from the rest? They all do. Tywin, Rob and Stannis were born into their roles. They weren't average men who rose up. Their fate was decided by being born into the family they were.

The same could be said of Dany. She could easily have just stayed Drogo's whore but she did something about it. She could have married the rich fraud from Qarth. She could have kept her army of slaves instead of freeing them. She is making her own fate. Luck is only a small part of it.

Dany, Tywin, Rob, Stannis, Joffrey and Robert were all high born. They all had a privileged up bringing. They all received an education. Dany's had a less secure life, but her name cushioned her for a number of years.

And yes, Dany, more than any of the rest, has depended on luck and fate in her rise.

Her brother could have sold her to anyone. Drogo could have been a complete thug. He could have just beaten and raped her for the rest of her life. Its not like his culture had issue with slaves. It just so happened that was the sort of man that enabled her to grow as a person. He allowed her to gain confidence. He gave her real respect.

The gift of the dragon eggs - luck? Fate? After hundreds of years these eggs happened to come to the one person who could re-awake them.

Ser Jorah Mormont, her fateful companion. Without him she would be dead. As it happens he was in contact with the "Spider" back in KL. He could have let her be poisoned. But he didn't.

And what would have happened if Drogo had lived? His death, her grief, led to the dragons awaking. Luck, Fate?

After Drogo died, she could have been sold off for ransom, or as a slave, by the remaining Dothraki. Instead most just pack up and leave. She could have died right there in the desert, but for the likes of Rakharo, who stay loyal to her.

She was received into Quath as a curiousity, where she could have been killed, but she was under estimated.

She took a real chance when buying the Unsullied. What would have happened if they had been programmed not to kill their masters?

Dany is a beautiful woman. She is intelligent. She is cunning. But most of what happened to her has been beyond her control. So many "coulds" in her life. Its only now, that things have gone well, that she has taken power for herself.

K_user

krudler wrote: »

Tywin is an absolute arse, but a smart, ruthless, someone you'd like to have on your side kind of an arse. That's what i love about this show, everyone has dodgy morals.

Tywin is a complete b*st*rd.

But you can't deny that he is an effective ruler. He is feared, respected, cunning, intelligent and politically astute.

K_user

pixelburp wrote: »

It's not just the Lord of Light stuff, he's straightforward in that he's completely ruthless and brutal, utterly lacking in anything resembling empathy. Everyone in his close circle has been mistreated or brutalized, via his personal insecurities or his fairly brutal code of honor. Unlike the Lannisters, family seems to mean little to Stannis beyond as a means to an heir - hell, he had no qualms about having his brother killed; sure he raised an army against him, but that cold ruthlessness runs through all the other decisions Stannis makes. Compare that with the Lannisers, where to Tywin family seems to mean everything

I think how Stannis treats his daughter, in comparison with Tywin is interesting: she gets locked in a tower & forgotten because of her disfigurement, whereas Tyrion - himself regarded as a freak - still gets broadly treated as one of the family, albeit a pariah; he still has power & status despite this. Now, I did say earlier that Stannis' daughter is probably mistreated based on her gender and potential as a mother, but I think the point still holds - Stannis saw his kid as useless so just locked her away. His utter lack of compassion during her brief scene with him was so illustrative of this.

Stannis seems like the type of man who'll make a decision and commit to it, no matter how horrible the deed. And his social conscience is no greater than that of Joffreys - so whilst the King is an impulsive & irrational wretch, it seems like those below him are capable of working around his obvious psychosis. Joffrey seems happy to simply enjoy the trappings of power without having to try too hard, whereas I could see Stannis actually ruling the kingdom, punishing dissidence & failure with a more direct and ruthless efficiency.

I don't entirely disagree with anything that you are saying.

Stannis is not a teddy bear. He wouldn't win any awards for father or friend of the year. He's hard, lacks empathy, he's ruthless, direct and uncompromising.

KL under his rulership would be joyless. However plotting would be dealt with efficiently. People like littlefinger wouldn't have much in the way of power.

The 7 kingdoms as a whole would be brought into line. The other noble houses would know their place. It wouldn't be fun. But there would be effective leadership.

Remember that Stannis himself isn't after the throne for glory. But because he believes that its the right thing to do. His primary drive is fairly black and white.


Joffrey on the other hand is a total f*ckwit. He sees the throne as his by right. He has no problem having his private guard beating a girl up in public. He enjoys torture and pain. He lacks the common sense to realise just how expendable he is.

pixelburp wrote: »

All conjecture of course. Ultimately, the only person who seems even remotely fit to rule is Danaerys, who appears to have the right mix of pragmatism, compassion and intelligence.

Dany would be a good fit'ish.

She has the drive, she obviously has the charm and the intelligence. And she certainly has a brutal streak.

But would the 7 Kingdoms follow her? The damage done by King Aerys is still on everyones mind. Unless she does something spectacular, like defeating undead armies from the north, I doubt she could effectively rule without fear.

pixelburp wrote: »

Though I have come to the conclusion that regardless who sits on the throne, the 7 Kingdoms is a cluster*ck of nation-states and there's simply no way an absolute monarch can rule them as a centralized power. Clearly Westeros needs to invent federalism!

I agree that the 7 Kingdoms is a cluster*ck of nation-states. But they have been ruled in the past.

Someone like King Robert could easily rule. And had his death not started a war, Joffery could have taken the throne and Tywin would have ruled in his name.

The 7 Kingdoms needs a powerful ruler. Someone would the other lords either respect, or fear.

krudler

K_user wrote: »

Tywin is a complete b*st*rd.

But you can't deny that he is an effective ruler. He is feared, respected, cunning, intelligent and politically astute.

And is one of the few people who won't take sh1t from Joffrey, and outsmarts him at every turn and tantrum.

K_user

krudler wrote: »

And is one of the few people who won't take sh1t from Joffrey, and outsmarts him at every turn and tantrum.

Tywin comes from a place of power. He knows that Joffery fears him. Along with everyone else. He also knows that as long as he doesn't provoke the "King" publicly, then Joffery will continue to be subservient to him in private.

Mickeroo

I think the scene with Stannis and Davos was interesting this week, it's like he was admiting that he knows how cold he can be and that he needs Davos to be his moral compass of sorts.

K_user

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think the scene with Stannis and Davos was interesting this week, it's like he was admiting that he knows how cold he can be and that he needs Davos to be his moral compass of sorts.

I would agree. Davos is a "good" man and very loyal to Stannis. So he must see something that we, the viewers, dont.

podgemonster

K_user wrote: »

I would agree. Davos is a "good" man and very loyal to Stannis. So he must see something that we, the viewers, dont.

I'd recommend the folklore videos on youtube from the DVD extras. There's one with Liam Cunningham narrating and explains the respect Davos has for Stannis when they meet during the siege of Dragonstone.

Davos through his life of smuggling had never known justice, not until Stannis.

krudler

I like Davos, he sees right through Melisandre and how she's manipulating Stannis, was funny seeing him delighted with himself finishing the sentence in the book.

Syferus

Bacchus wrote: »

Didn't she mention the Lord of Light leading her to him. When in doubt, the Lord of Light did it



We (the non-book readers) do know what happened. Any blanks are fairly easy to fill in. The Greyjoy men betrayed Theon (we saw this) and handed him over to the Boltons (pretty much a dead cert that who has him given the banners we've seen). Now, either the Boltons or the Greyjoys ransacked Winterfell. I suspect it was the Boltons, initially searching for the Stark kids and then burning the place down in anger... or cos they're d*cks and that's what d*cks do. They'd be safe to blame the Greyjoys and Rob Stark would be none the wiser.

If you are alluding to any further twists/shocks in the events at Winterfell due to having read the books, kindly stop posting in the non-book threads.



Huge facepalm moment there. You left behinf the weapon you just found out kills the formidable White Walkers. I guess, panic took over at what he just saw and all the crows chasing them.

I know everyone's paranoid about spoilers but I thought it was pretty clear by now I haven't read the books and that I was referring to the very-publicly stated fact that season is covering about half the third book. By this stage of the season it's easy to see we've had too much milling about and build-up for what I am to assume will be pay-off in season four.

If the showrunners took in more of that assumed pay-off from the third book and removed some of the endless travelling of characters this would be a much more satisfying season as the moment-to-moment of the show remains almost completely entralling.

If the show ran better covering most of third book and season four covering odds and ends from it and then a big chunk of the next book I'd have gladly sacrificed the symetry and space afforded to the third book being covered in halves by two season. What works for books doesn't always work for film and the shoe could do with manipulating the books timeline even more than (I assume) they already do.

iamanengine

If the Lord of Light is one type of say, magic then what is the White Walker's magic? I know that's phrased badly but you catch my drift.

Most followers of the Lord of Light think he is the one true God because they have seen some magic at work, but what about the Walkers? Surely there is some magical elements there. Even the Warlocks had their own type of magic.

Also in regards to the seemingly pointless storylines, however pointless they might seem now, I'm going to assume (by the book readers smugness :P ) that they all have quite an important consequence in future events, these seemingly pointless things have to happen for other, larger events to occur. Or so I am guessing/hoping!

Bacchus

Syferus wrote: »

I know everyone's paranoid about spoilers but I thought it was pretty clear by now I haven't read the books and that I was referring to the very-publicly stated fact that season is covering about half the third book.

Fair enough. I don't follow your posts, so when you wrote "Really starting to feel like they could have covered far more than half the third book in one season...." it seemed to me like you've read the books and therefore your subsequent comments seemed a bit "all knowing", as though something was going to be revealed about the sacking of Winterfell

You right though, this season has been all build up so far. As long as the pay off is worth it (on all threads of the story), that's fine with me cause season 3 has been great to watch so far. I hope the pay off will be before season 4 comes around though mind you.

Pepe LeFrits

Just as a heads up, the Inside the Episode catch ups they do with Benioff & Weiss for every episode are very good, they give background and explain their thinking on the various character's motivations, and they are filmed for the non-reading viewers. You can get them all on youtube.

Gbear

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Just as a heads up, the Inside the Episode catch ups they do with Benioff & Weiss for every episode are very good, they give background and explain their thinking on the various character's motivations, and they are filmed for the non-reading viewers. You can get them all on youtube.

Is that youtube or a podcast?