Season 3: Episode 8 * Have NOT read the books*MOD NOTE POST #1

Hyzepher

I've just watched some of the previous episodes again and I am a little confused about the Freys. What is their role in Westeros and why is getting their daughters married into the Stark/Tully clans so important to them. It's seems to be something that has an undisclosed motive - but I could have missed it or forgotten about it.

Rosy Posy

Hyzepher wrote: »

I've just watched some of the previous episodes again and I am a little confused about the Freys. What is their role in Westeros and why is getting their daughters married into the Stark/Tully clans so important to them. It's seems to be something that has an undisclosed motive - but I could have missed it or forgotten about it.

They own an important bridge and make their money by charging tolls to cross it. They seem a bit scummy- Waldo Frey is ancient and has recently married a teenage girl. He has lots of kids, they're all a bit ugly and simple looking. I think his eagerness to marry into the more noble families is very Mrs Bennett-esque: he has too many children to give them all a piece of his fortune so if he makes a few good matches he can throw some more of his kids into the path of rich or high born spouses. It's naked social advancement afaics.

keps

Rob Stark needs to cross the river( Green Fork) at the Twins and the crossing there is controlled by the Freys.
In exchange for allowing this and also his belated allegiance – Lord Walder Frey demands(well ‘negotiates’) the marriage of one of his daughters to Rob.
Which daughter it is to be- will be decided after the war is concluded.

Lemlin

Just one question from the episode.

Stannis said 3 names when he threw the leeches into the fire. Now, I know from the history videos on Youtube, that he helped quash Balon Greyjoy's uprising before so that is why he said him.

I also know why he said Joffrey but why did he say Robb? I thought Ned and the Starks supported Stannis' claim for the throne.

I always thought that Robb was only interested in the North and he and Stannis were sort of allies fighting to stop the Lannisters.

Mr.Prodston

Lemlin wrote: »

Just one question from the episode.

Stannis said 3 names when he threw the leeches into the fire. Now, I know from the history videos on Youtube, that he helped quash Balon Greyjoy's uprising before so that is why he said him.

I also know why he said Joffrey but why did he say Robb? I thought Ned and the Starks supported Stannis' claim for the throne.

I always thought that Robb was only interested in the North and he and Stannis were sort of allies fighting to stop the Lannisters.

When Stannis met Renly for the chats before the smoke monster did the business he saw Cat there and she was trying to get Renly to side with them. Plus while Robb's main motivation may be the North and destroying the Lannisters it would by default free up the Iron Throne and chances are he could probably claim it if it was lying idle. If you look at it from Stannis' point of view anyone who isn't with him is against him and Robb isn't "with" him and seeing Cat conversing with Renly wouldn't enthuse him towards the Starks.

Stannis is stubborn and believes the throne is his by right (he's not necessarily wrong either) so anybody helping him is just doing their duty to the rightful king and the realm in his eyes.

(I've read the books so just answering the question objectively, if that's a problem I can erase this no problem.) Oh and see Lemlin I've more interests than just Mickey Turner :eek: :pac:

Gbear

Lemlin wrote: »

Stannis said 3 names when he threw the leeches into the fire. Now, I know from the history videos on Youtube, that he helped quash Balon Greyjoy's uprising before so that is why he said him.

He said Balon Greyjoy because he basically declared war on the rest of the 7 kingdoms in season 2.

5 kings - Robb, Stannis, Joffrey, Renly, Balon

Renly's dead so the 3 leeches were for the other 3 usurpers.

Hyzepher

keps wrote: »

Rob Stark needs to cross the river( Green Fork) at the Twins and the crossing there is controlled by the Freys.
In exchange for allowing this and also his belated allegiance – Lord Walder Frey demands(well ‘negotiates’) the marriage of one of his daughters to Rob.
Which daughter it is to be- will be decided after the war is concluded.

Yeah I understood those episodes but it just seems odd that he would now want to conclude a marriage to a Tully in the midst of a war and everyone seems to just put the war on hold to accommodate him - including the Lannisters who don't seem to think this is a prime advantage to overrun Robb especially since some of his army have left him

Witcher

Stannis is the rightful king, Robb is basically threatening to take away nearly half his kingdom.

podgemonster

Blay wrote: »

Stannis is the rightful king, Robb is basically threatening to take away nearly half his kingdom.

Blasphemy!!!! Traitor!! There is only one King!!:mad:

Joffery of the House Baratheon the first of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm!

Witcher

podgemonster wrote: »

Blasphemy!!!! Traitor!! There is only one King!!:mad:

Joffery of the House Baratheon the first of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm!

The Lord of Light take you!

Only one of them took to the field at the Blackwater:pac:

Anachrony

Lemlin wrote: »

I always thought that Robb was only interested in the North and he and Stannis were sort of allies fighting to stop the Lannisters.

Robb would be happy to strike that bargain, but Stannis is an inflexible moron who won't compromise by giving away even part of his rightful kingdom in order to actually win the war.

pixelburp

Anachrony wrote: »

Robb would be happy to strike that bargain, but Stannis is an inflexible moron who won't compromise by giving away even part of his rightful kingdom in order to actually win the war.

Yeah, I think "inflexible" is the right word to use when it comes to Stannis. He seems to operate by his own, rigid code that broadly resembles honour, but is really just a cold brutality masquerading as fairness (and one that nobody can realistically ever live up to). It's no wonder Melissandre finds it so easy to manipulate him; rigid forms are easier to direct, and he's such an unbendable straight arrow.

I actually imagine the rule of Stannis would be more brutal than that of Joffreys; he's so utterly dour & intractable I doubt he'd put up with even the most minor of failures, resorting instead to the sword each time. Just look at how he treated (and is treating) Davos

K_user

pixelburp wrote: »

I actually imagine the rule of Stannis would be more brutal than that of Joffreys; he's so utterly dour & intractable I doubt he'd put up with even the most minor of failures, resorting instead to the sword each time. Just look at how he treated (and is treating) Davos

Have to disagree there. Stannis is dour, but take away the lord of light aspect and he's fairly straight forward. Just dont cross him.

Joffery on the other hand likes to tie women up and shoot them for kicks. Hes a phyco pure and simple.

K_user

Had the things gone differently in the past, I actually think Tywin would make for a good ruler. No one would mess with him and he has a very direct way of getting things done.

Dubhlinner

Hyzepher wrote: »

Yeah I understood those episodes but it just seems odd that he would now want to conclude a marriage to a Tully in the midst of a war and everyone seems to just put the war on hold to accommodate him - including the Lannisters who don't seem to think this is a prime advantage to overrun Robb especially since some of his army have left him

The Tullys are effectively regional royalty, they're like the Starks or Tyrells of the riverlands.

As Robb said its the best match the Freys have ever had. Walder's not going to risk another betrayal. He has a huge army and a strategic base - theyre far better leverage during a war than when its all over

PS I'm a book reader but all the above has been noted in the show

lynski

i re-watched tonight and i think the mention of the raynes of castle mare (sp?) is going to be a prescient conversation - i have a feeling that there is a rout in the offing, at least one set of characters are going to get wiped off the face of the earth.
Also, wondering about the notion that tywin is a decent sort after all - he sent his son to impregnate a 14 yr old. not to romance or seduce her, but impregnate her. He has no regard beyond the usefulness for the small folk, he is sending his daughter to be impregnated by a man he knows to be gay, he has form and I think he would wipe out anyone who dared stand in his way, there does not appear to be any sentiment there.

I was also wondering where melisandre is getting her info? AFAIK only Cersei knows who Gendry is? people know he is wanted by the kingsguard, but not even his old master knew his parentage? Or did I miss something? I can imagine that Verys might know but he hates magic so he will not be helping her, someone else then? Unless their lord of light is the one, but I am not so sure. maybe littlefinger might know? and how did she even find him and not know who arya was? anyway pondering too much i think. oh and finally, i think stannis would be very put out to hear she consorted with the BWOB, I think his inflexibility and tunnelvision would make themtraitors to him and he would not be happy with her for not telling him where they are.

lynski

keps wrote: »

Rob Stark needs to cross the river( Green Fork) at the Twins and the crossing there is controlled by the Freys.
In exchange for allowing this and also his belated allegiance – Lord Walder Frey demands(well ‘negotiates’) the marriage of one of his daughters to Rob.
Which daughter it is to be- will be decided after the war is concluded.

I thought arya was also betroth as part of that deal?
when they made the deal Robb was to be brother to a queen, in Sensa. now with a tully they have an uncle of a king as kin.

K_user

lynski wrote: »

Also, wondering about the notion that tywin is a decent sort after all - he sent his son to impregnate a 14 yr old. not to romance or seduce her, but impregnate her. He has no regard beyond the usefulness for the small folk, he is sending his daughter to be impregnated by a man he knows to be gay, he has form and I think he would wipe out anyone who dared stand in his way, there does not appear to be any sentiment there.

I wouldnt go as far as saying that he is decent, quite the opposite in fact. Hes a b*st*rd through and through. But he is an excellent politician. A formidable leader. The man demands respect.

Compare him to some of the others:

Joffery: nutcase
Stannis: good war leader, but as peace time king?
Rob: has no experience. Hasnt even run his own holdings yet.
Danny: depends on luck, fate and for others to under estimate her.

Even King Robert was a joke. He drank, hunted, whored and bankrupted the crown.

Say what you like about Tywin, but he'd get the job done.

Syferus

Really starting to feel like they could have covered far more than half the third book in one season. Maybe it's time they find new creases in the book to use as anchor points for the seasons because even though every single episode has been very good viewing there's way too much waiting around. It's almost like a bad parody that we still don't know what happened at Wintefell in season 2.

Oh, and Sam finally manning up was great but it kinda took away from it when he ran off without the bloody blade.

Kirby

K_user wrote: »

I wouldnt go as far as saying that he is decent, quite the opposite in fact. Hes a b*st*rd through and through. But he is an excellent politician. A formidable leader. The man demands respect.

Compare him to some of the others:

Joffery: nutcase
Stannis: good war leader, but as peace time king?
Rob: has no experience. Hasnt even run his own holdings yet.
Danny: depends on luck, fate and for others to under estimate her.

Even King Robert was a joke. He drank, hunted, whored and bankrupted the crown.

Say what you like about Tywin, but he'd get the job done.

You describe Robert as a joke and yet of all the characters, he was one of the few to actually change his fate. He wasn't handed a kingdom like Joffrey......he took it. Rob and Joffrey fell into their roles by the dictates of other people. The same can be said for Stannis. He is only the "rightful heir" because of who he is related to....fate. By no doing of his own. And all he has achieved so far is to get his fleet sunk.

I find your analysis of the characters baffling. Dany relies on luck and fate? How is that different from the rest? They all do. Tywin, Rob and Stannis were born into their roles. They weren't average men who rose up. Their fate was decided by being born into the family they were.

The same could be said of Dany. She could easily have just stayed Drogo's whore but she did something about it. She could have married the rich fraud from Qarth. She could have kept her army of slaves instead of freeing them. She is making her own fate. Luck is only a small part of it.

Bacchus

lynski wrote: »

I was also wondering where melisandre is getting her info? AFAIK only Cersei knows who Gendry is? people know he is wanted by the kingsguard, but not even his old master knew his parentage? Or did I miss something?

Didn't she mention the Lord of Light leading her to him. When in doubt, the Lord of Light did it

Syferus wrote: »

Really starting to feel like they could have covered far more than half the third book in one season. Maybe it's time they find new creases in the book to use as anchor points for the seasons because even though every single episode has been very good viewing there's way too much waiting around. It's almost like a bad parody that we still don't know what happened at Wintefell in season 2.

We (the non-book readers) do know what happened. Any blanks are fairly easy to fill in. The Greyjoy men betrayed Theon (we saw this) and handed him over to the Boltons (pretty much a dead cert that who has him given the banners we've seen). Now, either the Boltons or the Greyjoys ransacked Winterfell. I suspect it was the Boltons, initially searching for the Stark kids and then burning the place down in anger... or cos they're d*cks and that's what d*cks do. They'd be safe to blame the Greyjoys and Rob Stark would be none the wiser.

If you are alluding to any further twists/shocks in the events at Winterfell due to having read the books, kindly stop posting in the non-book threads.

Syferus wrote: »

Oh, and Sam finally manning up was great but it kinda took away from it when he ran off without the bloody blade.

Huge facepalm moment there. You left behinf the weapon you just found out kills the formidable White Walkers. I guess, panic took over at what he just saw and all the crows chasing them.

Bacchus

Kirby wrote: »

I find your analysis of the characters baffling. Dany relies on luck and fate? How is that different from the rest? They all do. Tywin, Rob and Stannis were born into their roles. They weren't average men who rose up. Their fate was decided by being born into the family they were.

The same could be said of Dany. She could easily have just stayed Drogo's whore but she did something about it. She could have married the rich fraud from Qarth. She could have kept her army of slaves instead of freeing them. She is making her own fate. Luck is only a small part of it.

I agree mostly with what you are saying (regarding Stanis, Rob et. al.) but Dany does enjoy a larger amount of luck than the others. She is cunning and makes best use of what is available to her but things have routinely gone her way, even the bad things that happen have ultimately led to greater things for her.

Marrying Drogo provided her with dragon eggs.
Drogos death led to her dragons being born.
The dragons gained her access to Quath.
The dragons freed her from Quath.
Her negotiations for the Unsullied army were going down the sh*tter until she threw a dragon into the deal.

All this happened because her brother "sold" her to Drogo and she received dragon eggs as a gift.

Also, her latest "victory", winning 2000 new soldiers because one of the generals has the hots for her.

She has a lot of strengths, she is opportunistic and she is good at developing loyalty and devotion in her ranks but she has had a lot of luck to get where she is.

pixelburp

K_user wrote: »

Have to disagree there. Stannis is dour, but take away the lord of light aspect and he's fairly straight forward. Just dont cross him.

Joffery on the other hand likes to tie women up and shoot them for kicks. Hes a phyco pure and simple.

It's not just the Lord of Light stuff, he's straightforward in that he's completely ruthless and brutal, utterly lacking in anything resembling empathy. Everyone in his close circle has been mistreated or brutalized, via his personal insecurities or his fairly brutal code of honor. Unlike the Lannisters, family seems to mean little to Stannis beyond as a means to an heir - hell, he had no qualms about having his brother killed; sure he raised an army against him, but that cold ruthlessness runs through all the other decisions Stannis makes. Compare that with the Lannisers, where to Tywin family seems to mean everything

I think how Stannis treats his daughter, in comparison with Tywin is interesting: she gets locked in a tower & forgotten because of her disfigurement, whereas Tyrion - himself regarded as a freak - still gets broadly treated as one of the family, albeit a pariah; he still has power & status despite this. Now, I did say earlier that Stannis' daughter is probably mistreated based on her gender and potential as a mother, but I think the point still holds - Stannis saw his kid as useless so just locked her away. His utter lack of compassion during her brief scene with him was so illustrative of this.

Stannis seems like the type of man who'll make a decision and commit to it, no matter how horrible the deed. And his social conscience is no greater than that of Joffreys - so whilst the King is an impulsive & irrational wretch, it seems like those below him are capable of working around his obvious psychosis. Joffrey seems happy to simply enjoy the trappings of power without having to try too hard, whereas I could see Stannis actually ruling the kingdom, punishing dissidence & failure with a more direct and ruthless efficiency.

All conjecture of course. Ultimately, the only person who seems even remotely fit to rule is Danaerys, who appears to have the right mix of pragmatism, compassion and intelligence. Though I have come to the conclusion that regardless who sits on the throne, the 7 Kingdoms is a cluster*ck of nation-states and there's simply no way an absolute monarch can rule them as a centralized power. Clearly Westeros needs to invent federalism!

krudler

K_user wrote: »

I wouldnt go as far as saying that he is decent, quite the opposite in fact. Hes a b*st*rd through and through. But he is an excellent politician. A formidable leader. The man demands respect.

Compare him to some of the others:

Joffery: nutcase
Stannis: good war leader, but as peace time king?
Rob: has no experience. Hasnt even run his own holdings yet.
Danny: depends on luck, fate and for others to under estimate her.

Even King Robert was a joke. He drank, hunted, whored and bankrupted the crown.

Say what you like about Tywin, but he'd get the job done.

Tywin is an absolute arse, but a smart, ruthless, someone you'd like to have on your side kind of an arse. That's what i love about this show, everyone has dodgy morals.

iamanengine

Hodor for King

I love how all his speculation on what's going to happen in relation to the rightful king and the war will be almost completely irrelevant once the White Walkers show their face. There is going to need to be an outrageous amount of unity between the so called Kings if they are to stand any chance!

Ah, how I love thee, Game of Thrones.

loveisdivine

iamanengine wrote: »

Hodor for King

I love how all his speculation on what's going to happen in relation to the rightful king and the war will be almost completely irrelevant once the White Walkers show their face. There is going to need to be an outrageous amount of unity between the so called Kings if they are to stand any chance!

Ah, how I love thee, Game of Thrones.

Thats what I keep thinking too. I can just picture Joffrey coming face to face with a whitewalker, or a dragon! Would be awesome! To see their faces when they realise none of the politics matter at all!

K_user

Kirby wrote: »

You describe Robert as a joke and yet of all the characters, he was one of the few to actually change his fate. He wasn't handed a kingdom like Joffrey......he took it. Rob and Joffrey fell into their roles by the dictates of other people. The same can be said for Stannis. He is only the "rightful heir" because of who he is related to....fate. By no doing of his own. And all he has achieved so far is to get his fleet sunk.

Please, first understand that my "analysis" of the characters were simple bullet points. So I understand were you are coming from.

Describing Robert as a "Joke" was harsh, unfair, but somewhat true. You are correct Robert did change his fate. He took control of the Kingdom. But he only did it with the help of all the banner men that fought with him. Such as the well respected and very powerful Ned Stark.

Robert himself was a high born noble of one of the most powerful houses in the 7 Kingdoms. As such he lived a life of privilege. He was well educated and schooled in the way of the world. When younger he was a great warrior and before taking the crown his biggest claim to fame was killing Rhaegar Targaryen.

As King he was to be feared. He had his own banner men, his brother Stannis's support, he had the North under Ned Stark, was married to Cersei Lannister, his younger brother was "friendly" with the Tyrell's and he wasn't personally afraid of anyone.

But as a ruler he was a joke. He admitted himself that winning the throne was far more fun than ruling it. He drank, he whored, he spent, he borrowed, he hunted. All major tasks were in effect decided apon by his small council. Meanwhile his wife bore three children, all fathered by her twin brother, Jaime Lannister. And he didn't seem to notice, or care.

So IMHO Robert was an excellent peacekeeper, but a terrible choice for overall ruler.


And Stannis has done more than have his ships sunk. He is an accomplished warrior and was very much feared along the Narrow Sea. Had it not been for the dragonsfire, he would have taken KL in one swoop. Not someone to be discounted.

Kirby wrote: »

I find your analysis of the characters baffling. Dany relies on luck and fate? How is that different from the rest? They all do. Tywin, Rob and Stannis were born into their roles. They weren't average men who rose up. Their fate was decided by being born into the family they were.

The same could be said of Dany. She could easily have just stayed Drogo's whore but she did something about it. She could have married the rich fraud from Qarth. She could have kept her army of slaves instead of freeing them. She is making her own fate. Luck is only a small part of it.

Dany, Tywin, Rob, Stannis, Joffrey and Robert were all high born. They all had a privileged up bringing. They all received an education. Dany's had a less secure life, but her name cushioned her for a number of years.

And yes, Dany, more than any of the rest, has depended on luck and fate in her rise.

Her brother could have sold her to anyone. Drogo could have been a complete thug. He could have just beaten and raped her for the rest of her life. Its not like his culture had issue with slaves. It just so happened that was the sort of man that enabled her to grow as a person. He allowed her to gain confidence. He gave her real respect.

The gift of the dragon eggs - luck? Fate? After hundreds of years these eggs happened to come to the one person who could re-awake them.

Ser Jorah Mormont, her fateful companion. Without him she would be dead. As it happens he was in contact with the "Spider" back in KL. He could have let her be poisoned. But he didn't.

And what would have happened if Drogo had lived? His death, her grief, led to the dragons awaking. Luck, Fate?

After Drogo died, she could have been sold off for ransom, or as a slave, by the remaining Dothraki. Instead most just pack up and leave. She could have died right there in the desert, but for the likes of Rakharo, who stay loyal to her.

She was received into Quath as a curiousity, where she could have been killed, but she was under estimated.

She took a real chance when buying the Unsullied. What would have happened if they had been programmed not to kill their masters?

Dany is a beautiful woman. She is intelligent. She is cunning. But most of what happened to her has been beyond her control. So many "coulds" in her life. Its only now, that things have gone well, that she has taken power for herself.

K_user

krudler wrote: »

Tywin is an absolute arse, but a smart, ruthless, someone you'd like to have on your side kind of an arse. That's what i love about this show, everyone has dodgy morals.

Tywin is a complete b*st*rd.

But you can't deny that he is an effective ruler. He is feared, respected, cunning, intelligent and politically astute.

K_user

pixelburp wrote: »

It's not just the Lord of Light stuff, he's straightforward in that he's completely ruthless and brutal, utterly lacking in anything resembling empathy. Everyone in his close circle has been mistreated or brutalized, via his personal insecurities or his fairly brutal code of honor. Unlike the Lannisters, family seems to mean little to Stannis beyond as a means to an heir - hell, he had no qualms about having his brother killed; sure he raised an army against him, but that cold ruthlessness runs through all the other decisions Stannis makes. Compare that with the Lannisers, where to Tywin family seems to mean everything

I think how Stannis treats his daughter, in comparison with Tywin is interesting: she gets locked in a tower & forgotten because of her disfigurement, whereas Tyrion - himself regarded as a freak - still gets broadly treated as one of the family, albeit a pariah; he still has power & status despite this. Now, I did say earlier that Stannis' daughter is probably mistreated based on her gender and potential as a mother, but I think the point still holds - Stannis saw his kid as useless so just locked her away. His utter lack of compassion during her brief scene with him was so illustrative of this.

Stannis seems like the type of man who'll make a decision and commit to it, no matter how horrible the deed. And his social conscience is no greater than that of Joffreys - so whilst the King is an impulsive & irrational wretch, it seems like those below him are capable of working around his obvious psychosis. Joffrey seems happy to simply enjoy the trappings of power without having to try too hard, whereas I could see Stannis actually ruling the kingdom, punishing dissidence & failure with a more direct and ruthless efficiency.

I don't entirely disagree with anything that you are saying.

Stannis is not a teddy bear. He wouldn't win any awards for father or friend of the year. He's hard, lacks empathy, he's ruthless, direct and uncompromising.

KL under his rulership would be joyless. However plotting would be dealt with efficiently. People like littlefinger wouldn't have much in the way of power.

The 7 kingdoms as a whole would be brought into line. The other noble houses would know their place. It wouldn't be fun. But there would be effective leadership.

Remember that Stannis himself isn't after the throne for glory. But because he believes that its the right thing to do. His primary drive is fairly black and white.


Joffrey on the other hand is a total f*ckwit. He sees the throne as his by right. He has no problem having his private guard beating a girl up in public. He enjoys torture and pain. He lacks the common sense to realise just how expendable he is.

pixelburp wrote: »

All conjecture of course. Ultimately, the only person who seems even remotely fit to rule is Danaerys, who appears to have the right mix of pragmatism, compassion and intelligence.

Dany would be a good fit'ish.

She has the drive, she obviously has the charm and the intelligence. And she certainly has a brutal streak.

But would the 7 Kingdoms follow her? The damage done by King Aerys is still on everyones mind. Unless she does something spectacular, like defeating undead armies from the north, I doubt she could effectively rule without fear.

pixelburp wrote: »

Though I have come to the conclusion that regardless who sits on the throne, the 7 Kingdoms is a cluster*ck of nation-states and there's simply no way an absolute monarch can rule them as a centralized power. Clearly Westeros needs to invent federalism!

I agree that the 7 Kingdoms is a cluster*ck of nation-states. But they have been ruled in the past.

Someone like King Robert could easily rule. And had his death not started a war, Joffery could have taken the throne and Tywin would have ruled in his name.

The 7 Kingdoms needs a powerful ruler. Someone would the other lords either respect, or fear.

krudler

K_user wrote: »

Tywin is a complete b*st*rd.

But you can't deny that he is an effective ruler. He is feared, respected, cunning, intelligent and politically astute.

And is one of the few people who won't take sh1t from Joffrey, and outsmarts him at every turn and tantrum.