UCD or RCSI?

Imperial_Ldn

pc11 wrote: »

That's something I've wondered about: how hard is it to start in either hospital or GP training but change later if you wish? You get the impression it's a fairly final decision, but there must be ways to switch as you say.

In particular, I have thought I might be interested in doing hospital training in general medicine, and I would imagine that's relatively transferable to GP if I wanted to.

I wonder how many people start medicine with a clear idea of here they want to end up and how many change their mind, perhaps many times, as they go?

the majority of GP training is in hospital, very little is actually GP practice! But for transferring from a GP training scheme to an internal med one, I don't think they allow you transfer your training years from one to another. E.g. a friend of mine was consultant paeds who went back to do GP and had to spend 6 months training in Paeds as part of her GP training!

pc11

Imperial_Ldn wrote: »

the majority of GP training is in hospital, very little is actually GP practice! But for transferring from a GP training scheme to an internal med one, I don't think they allow you transfer your training years from one to another. E.g. a friend of mine was consultant paeds who went back to do GP and had to spend 6 months training in Paeds as part of her GP training!

According to the ICGP it's about 50/50:

Training is of 4 years duration. In general, the first two years are spent in approved hospital training posts, and the balance spent in general practice under the supervision of a general practitioner trainer. At the end of formal training a certificate of satisfactory completion of training (CSCT) is issued by the training programme.

From http://www.icgp.ie/go/become_a_gp/the_training_path

Vorsprung

Imperial_ldn has been site banned for reregistering after numerous previous bans

Vorsprung

Back on topic, I'm hoping to get onto GP next year, I'll have done at least a year of the scheme (paeds ED, ED x years, geris x 1 yr, few medical jobs).

Has to be done because the jobs here needed to be filled (for purely service reasons, and particularly so now with the lack of NCHDs). Will be nice to be an SHO again (if I get on, sniff!).

Abby19

Vorsprung wrote: »

Back on topic, I'm hoping to get onto GP next year, I'll have done at least a year of the scheme (paeds ED, ED x years, geris x 1 yr, few medical jobs).

Has to be done because the jobs here needed to be filled (for purely service reasons, and particularly so now with the lack of NCHDs). Will be nice to be an SHO again (if I get on, sniff!).

Do they recognise your previous experience now? I've known a few who have done medical or surgical SHO training (some even left SpR schemes) and their experience was not counted. They've had to do the full 2 years GP SHO in hospital then 2 years GP Reg in practice.

Vorsprung

Abby19 wrote: »

Do they recognise your previous experience now? I've known a few who have done medical or surgical SHO training (some even left SpR schemes) and their experience was not counted. They've had to do the full 2 years GP SHO in hospital then 2 years GP Reg in practice.

No exactly, you have to start from scratch. It might be counted in the UK however.

Flange/Flanders

For what its worth, this is part of an email I got from a doctor a couple of months ago when I was talking them through some of my concerns. They'd have no reason to lie to me either, no doubt some people will just say she's delusional!!


"PRO's:
Medicine is a fabulous career, it is extremely interesting and I have never had a boring day because everyday you meet new people with different conditions.
It is very rewarding when you come to a diagnosis yourself and begin treatment.
I particularly love chatting to people and they value your time.
Lifelong learning
You do make a difference
The variety is vast
There will always be a job for you, people will always need medical help!
It's exciting, particularly the emergencies, bit of an adrenaline rush!
The money isn't bad
Lots of holidays....21days every 6 months!
Working as part on a team so you are never on your own
Work hard play hard....you do really appreciate your time off



CONS:
Your job comes first, and you just have to accept that, otherwise you will have difficulty getting through schemes, exams etc., and you will start to resent yourself.
The hours are long and demanding, I find on-call shifts in particular are frustrating, draining, and dreadworthy, but they are extremely beneficial for your career in the long term.
Staff in hospitals can be demanding and narky as they are all working overtime so morale leaves much to be desired in the workplace.
It is difficult to come home from a hard day's work and begin study.
Your hours will be unreliable and you will only leave when your work is done, so I've had to cancel plans last minute which is a real pain in the ass.
You will feel exhausted, but you get used to it.""

Interestingly, here's what she said about overtime:

"I have never had a problem with being paid overtime, any of the hospitals I have worked for have paid me in full. I know (a Dublin hospital) stated they were not paying overtime but this is illegal and the IMO are working on this. All of my friends working in other hospitals have not had a problem with wages."

She's graduated about 4 years ago I think, just got on a GP scheme now.

nomoreexams

Is there really that much holiday time? Fantastic if accurate!!

pc11

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

She's graduated about 4 years ago I think, just got on a GP scheme now.

How is she only getting on a GP scheme now after 4 years??!

BobbyOLGrinds

Due to the competiiveness of entry to the GP training scheme. Supply and demand and whatnot.

pc11

BobbyOLGrinds wrote: »

Due to the competiiveness of entry to the GP training scheme. Supply and demand and whatnot.

Does this happen to many people? What do they do for the years after graduating??

BobbyOLGrinds

pc11 wrote: »

Does this happen to many people? What do they do for the years after graduating??

Happens to loads of people. Similar with the Radiology scheme.

People going for GP tend to, and this is a broad sweeping statement, go for the medical SHO scheme. Those wanting to do Radiology go for the surgical scheme. With the changes to the surgical scheme it'll be interesting to see if this will continue but we'll see over the next few years.

Becoming a GP is tough. I don't know where this notion of "Oh if it doesn't work out in the hospital I'll just become a GP" came from. Not to say that's your view but you'll see as you go through college that many people have this mindset. The scheme is tough to get on at the best of times. Some people get on it straight away but a lot do a few years of the medical or surgical schemes before moving over.

pc11

BobbyOLGrinds wrote: »

Happens to loads of people. Similar with the Radiology scheme.

People going for GP tend to, and this is a broad sweeping statement, go for the medical SHO scheme. Those wanting to do Radiology go for the surgical scheme. With the changes to the surgical scheme it'll be interesting to see if this will continue but we'll see over the next few years.

Becoming a GP is tough. I don't know where this notion of "Oh if it doesn't work out in the hospital I'll just become a GP" came from. Not to say that's your view but you'll see as you go through college that many people have this mindset. The scheme is tough to get on at the best of times. Some people get on it straight away but a lot do a few years of the medical or surgical schemes before moving over.

So, getting on a GP scheme is relatively tough compared to some other options? And people often apply for both a hospital job and a GP place and just take the hospital one until they can get in to GP which could be a year or 2 or 3? And they have to start from scratch on the GP scheme no matter what they've been doing, am I understanding this right?

So, what makes a good GP scheme applicant? Med school placing? Internship performance? Research published? Kissing ass? References from GPs?

I've no idea yet what way I want to go, but GP is a strong possibility alright.

Abby19

pc11 wrote: »

So, getting on a GP scheme is relatively tough compared to some other options? And people often apply for both a hospital job and a GP place and just take the hospital one until they can get in to GP which could be a year or 2 or 3? And they have to start from scratch on the GP scheme no matter what they've been doing, am I understanding this right?

So, what make a good GP scheme applicant? Med school placing? Internship performance? Research published? Kissing ass? References from GPs?

I've no idea yet what way I want to go, but GP is a strong possibility alright.

In a word - yes! They are competitive. Some schemes/specialities are more in demand than others.

You can apply for up to 4 GP training schemes. There are 14 around the country. But you can also apply for other training schemes, medical, surgical, psychiatry, obs/gynae, etc.

But yes - at the moment no matter what you do if you are starting on a GP training scheme you start at the same point. Two years GP SHO in hospitals, then two years 2 years GP reg in practice (I know some schemes do it in that order - not sure if all). There was talk of acknowledging previous experience, but that is stalled afaik http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/05/no-movement-on-fast-track-gp-training-programme.html Payscales for interns and SHOs are here http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/July%202013.pdf

What are they looking for? There's a fair bit of info on here http://www.icgp.ie/index.cfm?spPath=become_a_gp/training_news/49D49E8F-19B9-E185-8335C7C3BC7AED7B.html
But you haven't started med school yet - some people have very firm ideas entering and aren't swayed from day 1, but many are from lectures/placements/electives. Maybe hang on and wait till you are doing your GP/Public Health and Primary Care module and ask your lecturers then. Things may change. You will also be on placement and many of the GPs that take med students are also GP trainers, so you could ask them what their particular schemes are looking for.

I have heard anecdotally that the Dublin schemes are harder to get into - more applicants - supply and demand. Also that some of them will only consider you if you have them as your #1, but this started to change last year - not sure about this year.

pc11

Abby19 wrote: »

In a word - yes! They are competitive. Some schemes/specialities are more in demand than others.

You can apply for up to 4 GP training schemes. There are 14 around the country. But you can also apply for other training schemes, medical, surgical, psychiatry, obs/gynae, etc.

But yes - at the moment no matter what you do if you are starting on a GP training scheme you start at the same point. Two years GP SHO in hospitals, then two years 2 years GP reg in practice (I know some schemes do it in that order - not sure if all). There was talk of acknowledging previous experience, but that is stalled afaik http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/05/no-movement-on-fast-track-gp-training-programme.html Payscales for interns and SHOs are here http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/July%202013.pdf

What are they looking for? There's a fair bit of info on here http://www.icgp.ie/index.cfm?spPath=become_a_gp/training_news/49D49E8F-19B9-E185-8335C7C3BC7AED7B.html
But you haven't started med school yet - some people have very firm ideas entering and aren't swayed from day 1, but many are from lectures/placements/electives. Maybe hang on and wait till you are doing your GP/Public Health and Primary Care module and ask your lecturers then. Things may change. You will also be on placement and many of the GPs that take med students are also GP trainers, so you could ask them what their particular schemes are looking for.

I have heard anecdotally that the Dublin schemes are harder to get into - more applicants - supply and demand. Also that some of them will only consider you if you have them as your #1, but this started to change last year - not sure about this year.

Great post, thanks.

To repeat something that was explained to me here before, getting on GP schemes are like applying for jobs, with interviews, references and so on. However, I had imagined it being more like applying for a college place. I hadn't quite understood that for a while.

When you're on a GP scheme, I gather your pay matches the hospital SHO rates, right? Do many people take longer than the standard 4 years to complete the training?

Is it possible to give some idea of what hospital specialities or schemes are also relatively hard to get into and which are easier?

Abby19

pc11 wrote: »

Great post, thanks.

You are welcome

To repeat something that was explained to me here before, getting on GP schemes are like applying for jobs, with interviews, references and so on. However, I had imagined it being more like applying for a college place. I hadn't quite understood that for a while.

Whoever told you that is correct. The intern application process is like applying for a college place - it is based solely on your centile ranking.
All training schemes have an application process, and their may be information in the various colleges' websites. The requirements can vary, in some cases you need to have some research behind you, e.g. MD or PhD to get on to the SpR schemes.

When you're on a GP scheme, I gather your pay matches the hospital SHO rates, right? Do many people take longer than the standard 4 years to complete the training?

Pay - yes - you are a trainee. I gather that as an SHO in the hospital you may be paid overtime, but as a reg in practice you just get a salary. Some practices have longer hours than others (I stand to be corrected on this, I was told this but haven't seen it in writing).

One has to pass the membership exams for the ICGP to qualify - as with all college exams not all pass first time - I don't know the pass rate. Also people can take time out, e.g. maternity leave - they still have to make up the training time. Maybe drop a line to the ICGP and they may be able to tell you. Here is some info from the ICGP website http://www.icgp.ie/go/become_a_gp/faqs/gp_training_general_faqs/943A2153-AB2E-C93F-A2C58D3954E43D41.html

Is it possible to give some idea of what hospital specialities or schemes are also relatively hard to get into and which are easier?

I don't know all of them myself - still a Medical student but doing some homework and asking doctors I am on placement (rotation/elective) with about it. Some of the universities and training colleges organise information days/evenings. It is also a common conversation topic among Med students especially in the higher years.
Dermatology, Ophthalmology and Anaesthetics usually are. But in 5 years time by the time you have completed your degree and intern year things could look very different.

I have heard that some are always competitive, and others wax and wane. I can't recall which speciality it was but I heard that one had few applicants so nearly everyone got on the scheme so the next few years they had a lot of applicants. And some were so oversubscribed people gave up applying and after a while it was easier to get in. Or that some consultant posts were created so people applied for training schemes in that field as it looked like there may be more opportunities for them later.

There's a lot of information here for the medical route http://www.rcpi.ie/article.php?locID=1.6.197.415
Surgical http://www.rcsi.ie/surgery_nstc
Psychiatry http://www.irishpsychiatry.ie/Postgrad_Training.aspx
Ophthalmology http://www.eyedoctors.ie/trainees/bst.asp

A little googling goes a long way!

medic087

Hi Guys

I'm a mature student going into second med of 5 year programme in dublin. Is there anybody currently living in Dublin who has an open room in their house/apartment that they are looking to fill?

Or looking for accommodation in Dublin? PM me if anything.

House_QC

Hi,

Have any UCD-bound grad meds made headway on finding accommodation, please? Any tips on finding suitable accommodation? Location/price/etc?


Thanks!

stainluss

With the state of the country and the amount of docs emigrating; which would be better recognized abroad (UK/USA)? Or would the difference be negligible? UCD is well-known university in its own right, but (from reading this thread) RCSI seems to get a lot of Americans and assists with US exams.

Hypnos

stainluss wrote: »

UCD is well-known university in its own right, but (from reading this thread) RCSI seems to get a lot of Americans and assists with US exams.

Well that's the exact reason why the get more Americans isn't it? Because they assist with prep for the USMLE (from what I hear). Being an Irish student and having no interest in practicing in the US it doesn't make a difference to me. If I wanted to go to the US, I still wouldn't base my choice of University on that. No matter where you finish med school you can sit the USMLEs. You need to be a little self reliant and not expect and Irish med school to prepare you for a US med exam. It's nice if they do (and bound to attract more internationals), but you shouldn't expect it as common courtesy.

Besides, if you're focused and dedicated, you'll pass the USMLEs regardless of where you graduate. Having spoken to some US students who are my classmates now, they said the exam is designed to be passed by those who did well in med school. Stop worrying

stainluss

Hypnos wrote: »

Well that's the exact reason why the get more Americans isn't it? Because they assist with prep for the USMLE (from what I hear). Being an Irish student and having no interest in practicing in the US it doesn't make a difference to me. If I wanted to go to the US, I still wouldn't base my choice of University on that. No matter where you finish med school you can sit the USMLEs. You need to be a little self reliant and not expect and Irish med school to prepare you for a US med exam. It's nice if they do (and bound to attract more internationals), but you shouldn't expect it as common courtesy.

Besides, if you're focused and dedicated, you'll pass the USMLEs regardless of where you graduate. Having spoken to some US students who are my classmates now, they said the exam is designed to be passed by those who did well in med school. Stop worrying

Yeah I've always been ok with self-directed study. But would one be better than the other in terms of rep when you're competing for fellowship places etc.?

Hypnos

stainluss wrote: »

Yeah I've always been ok with self-directed study. But would one be better than the other in terms of rep when you're competing for fellowship places etc.?

If you want to think of it that way, then RCSI has more rep being a med school because it's specifically a med school but internationally UCD is more known. UCD also has a greater emphasis on research. RCSI is traditionally a med school, UCD isn't.

It's like comparing John Hopkins and Harvard. J. Hop is the best med school in the world, doesn't mean it has a better rep than Harvard though. And whichever you graduate from or choose, you should be happy in the end.

I think of it in a different way. The person who puts more work in and does better as a med student and junior doc gets the fellowship place. As in terms of the fellowship placements (in Europe?) absolutely not. If a UCD student has a 1.1 degree in Medicine and an RCSI has a 2.1, they're not gonna give it to the RCSI student just because he/she went to RCSI.

Otherwise everyone would have RCSI as their first choice if it gave them a major advantage in their future medical career. The doctor who works at it harder with get the position whether he has a med degree from UCD, UCC, RCSI or UL. I think anyone who thinks one is better than the other is doing the whole rivalry thing. They both have their own subtle differences which give them advantages. There are fellows and consultants all over Ireland who graduated in a wide range of medical schools.

House_QC

I don't think anyone can say with any degree of certainty that John Hopkins is a "better" medical school than Harvard med school. In all the industry rankings, Harvard comes out top. They're both a similar standard and any attempt at rankings are highly subjective anyway.

Otherwise, I agree with what you've said "Hypnos".

Cheers.

Celestial12

Sorry to bump an old thread. I read through these pages a few months ago and found it quite interesting and informative. If any of you are still around, you'll have finished your degree by now. Are you happy with the decision and how was the experience for you?

I have UCD down as my first choice, but I never really gave the option of RCSI a chance. Just wondering how up to date is the information in this thread? Are RCSI gems still based out in sandyford?

GrabTheCREAM

Celestial12 wrote: »

Sorry to bump an old thread. I read through these pages a few months ago and found it quite interesting and informative. If any of you are still around, you'll have finished your degree by now. Are you happy with the decision and how was the experience for you?

I have UCD down as my first choice, but I never really gave the option of RCSI a chance. Just wondering how up to date is the information in this thread? Are RCSI gems still based out in sandyford?

I think some of it is in the main campus in the city then other classes are in sandyford

Kirby2k07

GrabTheCREAM wrote: »

I think some of it is in the main campus in the city then other classes are in sandyford

As far as I know since the York street building for undergrads finished last year, they’ve shifted the whole gem operation into town, converting the old Mercer library (a building where king street meets south William street, which I had no idea rcsi owned) into the main location for classes instead of Sandyford

ozbackineire

Kirby2k07 wrote: »

As far as I know since the York street building for undergrads finished last year, they’ve shifted the whole gem operation into town, converting the old Mercer library (a building where king street meets south William street, which I had no idea rcsi owned) into the main location for classes instead of Sandyford

You are correct, GEM are based solely in the old Mercer library, there is no teaching in Sandyford any longer.

SplishySplashy

Just going back to the subject of accommodation for incoming GEMs in Dublin, what are the typical go-tos for people that haven't done their undergrad in Dublin and don't know many other incoming GEMs/postgrad students or any peers in Dublin? Thinking of either staying in Cork or relocating to Dublin for UCD instead of RCSI, though I may reverse that preference. Planning on looking/booking as early as possible for a 2019/2020 start, depending on if I want to do my add-on year.

Obviously cost and distance are issues but ideally any complexes that allow me to mix with as many other GEMs in my year and above as possible would be good, as well as bus routes/DART routes. Very unfamiliar with Dublin accommodation so as comprehensive an answer as possible would be great!

brendanwalsh

Find off the colleges what the attrition rate is.
Find out what the match rate back to NA is.
Ask them for the real numbers and not the fudged data.

Pierre_Robin

SplishySplashy wrote: »

Just going back to the subject of accommodation for incoming GEMs in Dublin, what are the typical go-tos for people that haven't done their undergrad in Dublin and don't know many other incoming GEMs/postgrad students or any peers in Dublin? Thinking of either staying in Cork or relocating to Dublin for UCD instead of RCSI, though I may reverse that preference. Planning on looking/booking as early as possible for a 2019/2020 start, depending on if I want to do my add-on year.

Obviously cost and distance are issues but ideally any complexes that allow me to mix with as many other GEMs in my year and above as possible would be good, as well as bus routes/DART routes. Very unfamiliar with Dublin accommodation so as comprehensive an answer as possible would be great!

Most of the GEMs from out of the country in my year stayed on campus for the first year, and like the rest of us, moved in with one another for year 2 onwards. Unless you get on to a facebook group or something, it'll be difficult to find accommodation with GEMS for year one.

The Dublin rental market is absolutely pants at the moment, and you'll be paying a fortune for anywhere. I know Cork isn't exactly cheap, but it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for you as a student.

UCD is located on multiple bus lines and has quite a bit of bicycle parking so you'll be grand going to lectures etc. Mater and Vincent's are similar, with both being well served by bus routes. UCD rotate through Crumlin, Temple Street, Holles Street, and St. John of God's in Dublin. They also rotate to Tullamore and Wexford (unless I've forgotten another), though will provide you with accommodation (as will RCSI to the best of my knowledge). What I'm getting at is that the UCD rotations are all easy to get to via public transport or bicycle from most parts of Dublin and so are suited to students. The only one I remember being an absolute pain was Cappagh, though I was only there for a few days.

I'm not as familiar with RCSIs rotations but know they use Beaumont a bit, as well as Connolly, neither as central as the Mater to be fair.

You could stay in most parts of Dublin and probably be ok for UCD. A lot of my mates lived in Phibsboro for instance and cycled every day, then went to the Mater for res year. They were happy. I lived southside (it was the recession then, I was renting a nice double room for 400 euro - :pac:) and went to Vincent's. I was happy.

My knowledge of Cork is SLIM. As you're already living there you may know better, and could see what areas would be simpler for a student. Definitely have a look at the cost of renting, as it doesn't look like it's going to slow in Dublin at all in the near future.

Post-call again so apologies for the rambling!!

Kirby2k07

I gave it my best shot searching the forum, but I can't for the life of myself find the start date for UCD GEM.
Can anyone there at the moment give us a general idea when first years start- academic start and/or any orientation that might take place in the previous week? Booking some last minute holzzz

e1994

Kirby2k07 wrote: »

I gave it my best shot searching the forum, but I can't for the life of myself find the start date for UCD GEM.
Can anyone there at the moment give us a general idea when first years start- academic start and/or any orientation that might take place in the previous week? Booking some last minute holzzz

I emailed and was directed here:
http://www.ucd.ie/students/keydates.htm
I think the orientation week begins the 3rd/4th and I was told there are a couple of talks during that week that are compulsory for GEM students 😊

SplishySplashy

Pierre_Robin wrote: »

Most of the GEMs from out of the country in my year stayed on campus for the first year, and like the rest of us, moved in with one another for year 2 onwards. Unless you get on to a facebook group or something, it'll be difficult to find accommodation with GEMS for year one.

The Dublin rental market is absolutely pants at the moment, and you'll be paying a fortune for anywhere. I know Cork isn't exactly cheap, but it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for you as a student.

UCD is located on multiple bus lines and has quite a bit of bicycle parking so you'll be grand going to lectures etc. Mater and Vincent's are similar, with both being well served by bus routes. UCD rotate through Crumlin, Temple Street, Holles Street, and St. John of God's in Dublin. They also rotate to Tullamore and Wexford (unless I've forgotten another), though will provide you with accommodation (as will RCSI to the best of my knowledge). What I'm getting at is that the UCD rotations are all easy to get to via public transport or bicycle from most parts of Dublin and so are suited to students. The only one I remember being an absolute pain was Cappagh, though I was only there for a few days.

I'm not as familiar with RCSIs rotations but know they use Beaumont a bit, as well as Connolly, neither as central as the Mater to be fair.

You could stay in most parts of Dublin and probably be ok for UCD. A lot of my mates lived in Phibsboro for instance and cycled every day, then went to the Mater for res year. They were happy. I lived southside (it was the recession then, I was renting a nice double room for 400 euro - :pac:) and went to Vincent's. I was happy.

My knowledge of Cork is SLIM. As you're already living there you may know better, and could see what areas would be simpler for a student. Definitely have a look at the cost of renting, as it doesn't look like it's going to slow in Dublin at all in the near future.

Post-call again so apologies for the rambling!!

Braced for the rent costs myself if UCD wins out, but thanks so much for your run-down! As long as the GEM classes are accommodating enough to get houses with from year 2 on I'd love it, also have friends in Maynooth if commuting isn't too unmanageable

Thanks a mil, ramble appreciated!