Ireland is a Tax Haven

Wompa1

While the mechanics of Apple’s international tax strategy – in which Ireland plays a key role – is a little clearer following CEO Tim Cook’s appearance before a US Senate hearing, the rights and wrongs of it are still hotly contested.
Before Cook had even taken his seat before the panel of politicians, Senator John McCain made clear his opinion by declaring that Apple had “violated the spirit of the law, if not the letter of the law” in the way it handles its international income.
However fellow Republican Rand Paul lambasted the committee for “dragging” Apple executives in to be “harangued and bullied” for doing what all sensible companies – and people – do; minimise their tax bill.
The company could find itself guilty of malpractice if it failed to reduce what it paid in tax, he said and the committee “should be congratulating them for being a great American company”.
Chairman Carl Levin was quick to reject this characterisation of the hearing, saying that there was “no attempt to vilify” any person or company. The committee hearing intended to “shine a light” on how the system works, he said, rather than cast judgement on it.

Indeed the Washington session was consistently punctuated with qualifications, where senators couched each probe with an assurance that they were not trying to divine the legality or otherwise of Apple’s approach to tax.
At the heart of the questioning was an attempt to tease out the role of Apple Operations International, Apple Operations Europe and Apple Sales International – all registered in Ireland – in Apple’s business model.
This was important to the committee, as these companies manage Apple sales outside of America – in other words the majority of its revenue - and pay no tax back to the US. AOI is also the holder of a $100bn cash pile, money Apple has said it has no intention of repatriating to the US in the foreseeable future
<snip>

From RTE today. Surprised it's not getting a mention on After Hours. I wonder if they'd cut me a similar deal if I tried to start a business

Dempsey

Wompa1 wrote: »

From RTE today. Surprised it's not getting a mention on After Hours. I wonder if they'd cut me a similar deal if I tried to start a business

If you could take 4k+ off the dole and generate millions/billions then youll get 2% too

Wompa1

Dempsey wrote: »

If you could take 4k+ of the dole and generate millions/billions then youll get 2% too

Not on the dole, Bud. I left Ireland last year and before that I had worked there for 15 years. I chose to leave.

Dempsey

Wompa1 wrote: »

Not on the dole, Bud. I left Ireland last year and before that I had worked there for 15 years. I chose to leave.

never said u were. I said if u could start a business generating what they do then you'll get 2% tax rate aswell

Wompa1

EA job announcement:

"This job announcement is evidence of Galway's talented, determined and skilled workforce and is great news for Galway's local economy. The IDA estimates that for these 300 jobs, a further 210 will be created in retail and hospitality and so on."

’Cisco’s R&D operation in Ireland is developing industry leading products for global markets. Access to diverse top-class engineering talent and support from IDA Ireland have helped build a successful, innovative and global development capability over the last five years."

He continued “HP works closely with the Government and the IDA and notwithstanding recent improvements in Irish competitiveness, their support was essential to winning this investment for Ireland. The cumulative impact of this announcement on the Irish economy will be up to €45m over three years.”

HP will be drawing from Ireland’s deep talent pool to recruit highly qualified engineering and computer science graduates, in addition to experienced engineers.

“We chose Dublin as our first location outside of New York City over many others in Europe,” said Anthony Casalena, Founder and CEO of Squarespace. “Dublin offers us a friendly, young, and talented workforce in a vibrant center city location. It’s the perfect choice for Squarespace.”

The Guidewire Services Centre was initially set up to meet the growing customer demand for assistance in implementing Guidewire’s solutions around the world. The technical talent in the area convinced Guidewire to also create its fourth Regional Development Centre in Dublin. It joins Guidewire teams in the San Francisco Bay Area, Tokyo, and Toronto as a product development operation.

Why, Big heartless multi-national companies!? Why!?... I believed you

Wompa1

Dempsey wrote: »

never said u were. I said if u could start a business generating what they do then you'll get 2% tax rate aswell

What they do now? Or what they did when they first set up?

errlloyd

The London financial district is a tax haven for banks. Germany and France don't offer car manufacturers tax incentives, they offer them massive subsidies instead, Denmark is a tax haven for energy production research and manufacturing. Spain is a tax haven for.... Well Spain has no industry but you get the gist.

skinny90

Wompa1 wrote: »

From RTE today. Surprised it's not getting a mention on After Hours. I wonder if they'd cut me a similar deal if I tried to start a business

Because all multi national companies are guilty not just one which you are making it out to be

Karl Stein

However fellow Republican Rand Paul lambasted the committee for “dragging” Apple executives in to be “harangued and bullied” for doing what all sensible companies – and people – do; minimise their tax bill.

A good old libertarian nanny stater hypocrite talking out of his hole. If he'd a fucking clue about the actual free market he'd be criticising how the state contributes to the enormity of corporations like Apple by enforcing their highly dubious copyrights, patents, monopolies and very status as a fictional legal entity.

Wompa1

skinny90 wrote: »

Because all multi national companies are guilty not just one which you are making it out to be

I posted quotes about a bunch of different companies who set up in Ireland, insinuating that they setup in Ireland due similar special arrangements....

Kichote

Dempsey wrote: »

If you could take 4k+ off the dole and generate millions/billions then youll get 2% too

Its just us normal people who get screwed with tax. Big companies with loads to spare? Let em keep it.

skinny90

Wompa1 wrote: »

I posted quotes about a bunch of different companies who set up in Ireland, insinuating that they setup in Ireland due similar special arrangements....

Meh I read the op and quoted the op
Sky news are just as bad.i don't see what's the big deal to be honest

IM0

this just in

"company seeks to minimise its tax bill shocker"

:rolleyes:

thats why there is no thread, its a non story, at this stage its one persons word against the other . apple v's the irish government

K-9

Dempsey wrote: »

never said u were. I said if u could start a business generating what they do then you'll get 2% tax rate aswell

In fairness this has nothing to do with the rate or jobs for that matter, it has everything to do with rules, that Apple, Google and others exploit legally.

As was raised on the VB show, we actually have shell companies here that create no jobs and cost us €50-100 Million a year just to be here.

Rhys Essien

The whole thing is a laughing stock.The government are trying to bring in water tax,household tax,property tax,media device tax which would all add up to a few hundred million while losing out on potentially a few billion.

Another thing,if Apple get hit for little or no tax,why is the small company even bothering paying the 12%.

Snickers Man

Dempsey wrote: »

If you could take 4k+ off the dole and generate millions/billions then youll get 2% too

Yeah. Taxes are only for little people. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Rhys Essien

The Lord Mayor of Cork was on the radio yesterday and was saying words to the effect "Aah but their 4,000 employees are paying tax"

So the company itself can pay whatever tax they like,is it?

corkonion

I used to think Irelands low corporate tax rate, and its many loopholes to make it even lower still, was a good thing for this country as I believed it brought good paying jobs to Ireland and added to our national wealth indirectly, but,
as this austere period drags on, and I see a second successive generation start to emigrate, I think its time to say "enough is enough". Keep our low corporate rate, but make the companies pay that 12 per cent. not reduce it further by claiming r+d breaks, or foreign (yet internal)supply costs etc etc.
Every company located here should pay 12 pc on all its profits.

awec

corkonion wrote: »

I used to think Irelands low corporate tax rate, and its many loopholes to make it even lower still, was a good thing for this country as I believed it brought good paying jobs to Ireland and added to our national wealth indirectly, but,
as this austere period drags on, and I see a second successive generation start to emigrate, I think its time to say "enough is enough". Keep our low corporate rate, but make the companies pay that 12 per cent. not reduce it further by claiming r+d breaks, or foreign (yet internal)supply costs etc etc.
Every company located here should pay 12 pc on all its profits.

What profits? Are you talking about stuff sold in shops?

maryishere

Dempsey wrote: »

I said if u could start a business generating what they do then you'll get 2% tax rate aswell

No you would not. The likes of Dunnes or Tesco would employ a lot more and they pay a lot more tax % wise than Apple or Google.

Ireland is a tax haven for multinationals to launder their profits through, at the expense of the taxpayers abroad. Simple as that.

AnonoBoy

I've decided to 'do a Google' on it myself.

From now on AnonoBoy is a floating international entity with no base anywhere and therefore not liable for income tax...........


..... OH NO!!!! I'VE BECOME A FREEMAN!!!! :eek:

awec

maryishere wrote: »

No you would not. The likes of Dunnes or Tesco would employ a lot more and they pay a lot more tax % wise than Apple or Google.

Ireland is a tax haven for multinationals to launder their profits through, at the expense of the taxpayers abroad. Simple as that.

I guess if you totally ignore the fact they employ a significant number of people in highly paid skilled roles then that might be true.

oldyouth

I think we should explore the possibility of Ireland becoming a fully fledged tax haven for all manufacturing companies worldwide. I wouldn't have a problem with giving 0% tax status to any firm based in Ireland guaranteeing 5k+ tax paying jobs

Rhys Essien

oldyouth wrote: »

I think we should explore the possibility of Ireland becoming a fully fledged tax haven for all manufacturing companies worldwide. I wouldn't have a problem with giving 0% tax status to any firm based in Ireland guaranteeing 5k+ tax paying jobs

That cant happen as a member of the EU.

As it stands,I suprised Merkel isnt after flying in asking Enda what the fcuk is going on.

Also,How come the IMF are not after spotting this while looking through our books.

skywalker

oldyouth wrote: »

I think we should explore the possibility of Ireland becoming a fully fledged tax haven for all manufacturing companies worldwide. I wouldn't have a problem with giving 0% tax status to any firm based in Ireland guaranteeing 5k+ tax paying jobs

The EU wouldnt have it though. As it is their going to lean on Enda pretty heavily given the publicity of this. If that results in some sensible arrangement like apples tax going up by 1 or 2 percent, & that money going into paying off the countries debts, or god forbid reducing the amount of stealth taxes their implementing, then happy days. Anything more than that we risk becoming uncompetitive, & apple will be off.

Sergeant

Don't see what the problem is here? Tax avoidance is standard operating procedure for any well-ran and governed corporation. I'd rather we attract companies here who provide employment and investment than chase them away to some other country who will use tax-breaks as a sweetener. That will just cause the economy to stagnate even further.

hooradiation

Rhys Essien wrote: »

That cant happen as a member of the EU.

As it stands,I suprised Merkel isnt after flying in asking Enda what the fcuk is going on.

Also,How come the IMF are not after spotting this while looking through our books.

Well, the "Double Irish" has been a thing since about the end of the 80's.
So, yeah, I'd say they know about it.

force eleven

What's the problem? Just because lil ole Brussels or Mrs Merkel doesn't like it? It should be lower than its official rate ( Corpo Tax) to attract industry from abroad. More jobs, more tax for the exchequer, less people on the dole. Let em in for nothing I say.

Hoop66

Rhys Essien wrote: »

As it stands,I suprised Merkel isnt after flying in asking Enda what the fcuk is going on.

What would be the point though? She'd just get a loads of bollocks back, better to just ignore him and get on wiz ze plan.

awec

The reason Merkel and the rest of them don't like it is because our low corp tax rate is seeing investment coming to Ireland from these companies instead of to their countries.

Rhys Essien

force eleven wrote: »

What's the problem? Just because lil ole Brussels or Mrs Merkel doesn't like it? It should be lower than its official rate ( Corpo Tax) to attract industry from abroad. More jobs, more tax for the exchequer, less people on the dole. Let em in for nothing I say.

Would a level playing field not be better?.Should poor old Tommy down the road bother paying his 12.5%?

Should Apple not just buy Ireland with the money they have amassed in tax avoidance?.They would get us cheap.:D

rossie1977

force eleven wrote: »

What's the problem? Just because lil ole Brussels or Mrs Merkel doesn't like it? It should be lower than its official rate ( Corpo Tax) to attract industry from abroad. More jobs, more tax for the exchequer, less people on the dole. Let em in for nothing I say.

while we are at it lets give them free reign, shell want to dig for oil in your backyard let them go right ahead after all it means more jobs, more tax for the exchequer, less people on the dole

Banjo String

errlloyd wrote: »

pain is a tax haven for.... Well Spain has no industry but you get the gist.

How many million tourists a year holiday there:eek:

Valetta

2% or 0% (when the MNCs bugger off if we get uppity)

I know which I'd prefer.

Wompa1

Wow, as somebody paying 41% tax on a substanial amount and the 28% on the first 33k and then constinously getting hit whenever I worked over time. I am not ok with this. Not so much that this arrangement was made. But, that the arrangement was made and our Tánaiste stated that the Irish tax system is transparent.

I remember when they brought in this temporary tax. Which in fairness was temporary and then replaced with the USC...honest and transparent for all to see :rolleyes:

I must have been running in the wrong circles. I was not aware that certain companies were paying as low as 2%, I didn't realize it did not come as a suprise to most. Silly me, I thought it may be a form of corruption and that I should feel outraged.

awec

Wompa1 wrote: »

Wow, as somebody paying 41% tax on a substanial amount and the 28% on the first 33k and then constinously getting hit whenever I worked over time. I am not ok with this. Not so much that this arrangement was made. But, that the arrangement was made and our Tánaiste stated that the Irish tax system is transparent.

I remember when they brought in this temporary tax. Which in fairness was temporary and then replaced with the USC...honest and transparent for all to see :rolleyes:

I must have been running in the wrong circles. I was not aware that certain companies were paying as low as 2%, I didn't realize it did not come as a suprise to most. Silly me, I thought it may be a form of corruption and that I should feel outraged.

Are you under the impression that raising the tax rate will be better for the country?

Valetta

What "arrangement" are you talking about?

Companies make profits. These profits are then adjusted for tax purposes. All above board and the rules are the same for every company.

You cannot compare the effective tax rate paid by a company to it's original profit figure, as some items will be disallowed and other non P & L account items cam be claimed against tax.

seamus

What is this new bull**** ideology where companies and people are duty-bound to pay more taxes than legally obliged? The british PM started it with by outing Jimmy Carr and now they've moved onto companies.

If companies are legally paying less tax than you'd like, then raise the taxes. Don't blame the companies.

It seems to be some populist nonsense to try and distract people. "People! The reason your taxes are so high is because big companies who are providing massive employment and investment aren't being patriotic enough!"

Rhys Essien

seamus wrote: »

What is this new bull**** ideology where companies and people are duty-bound to pay more taxes than legally obliged? The british PM started it with by outing Jimmy Carr and now they've moved onto companies.

If companies are legally paying less tax than you'd like, then raise the taxes. Don't blame the companies.

It seems to be some populist nonsense to try and distract people. "People! The reason your taxes are so high is because big companies who are providing massive employment and investment aren't being patriotic enough!"

For starters,could they not be made pay the 12.5%
Can we not close the bloody loopholes that allow them away with paying next to feckall.The American corporate tax rate is 35% while ours is among the lowest is the world.

Also,AFAIK most of those 4,000 positions are tempory contracts,like a conveyor belt,saving more money by not making people permanent.

Wompa1

awec wrote: »

Are you under the impression that raising the tax rate will be better for the country?

No, but as a citizen of Ireland, I would be interested in knowing the level of taxation for an organization in Ireland. Maybe it's my own ignorance, is this information out there in a document somewhere which states if I employ x number of people, I pay x in tax. Or if I sponsor a road race and community games, I get x off my tax.

Valetta

Wompa1 wrote: »

No, but as a citizen of Ireland, I would be interested in knowing the level of taxation for an organization in Ireland. Maybe it's my own ignorance, is this information out there in a document somewhere which states if I employ x number of people, I pay x in tax. Or if I sponsor a road race and community games, I get x off my tax.

All companies registered in Ireland are obliged to file annual returns with www.cro.ie

There you will see the profits and tax paid.

All companies have to abide by the same tax laws.

hfallada

A tax haven is a letter box with billions going through a company with no one in it. Apple employees 4,000 people in Cork and although it makes everything in China. It has been in Ireland since 1983 which is only 3 years after it was founded. Ireland is the center of there European and middle eastern operations.

I find a lot of those senate meetings are BS as the republicans make up **** to justify anything

ressem

Rhys Essien wrote: »

For starters,could they not be made pay the 12.5%
Can we not close the bloody loopholes that allow them away with paying next to feckall.The American corporate tax rate is 35% while ours is among the lowest is the world.

Also,AFAIK most of those 4,000 positions are tempory contracts,like a conveyor belt,saving more money by not making people permanent.

As I understand it...

There's a US loophole "Check-the-box" which means that US companies which should pay taxes on profits everywhere on earth don't pay taxes on transfers to wholly owned subsidiaries. So the corporations create a subsidiary which might be incorporated in some place with 0% corporation tax like Bermuda but run out of Nevada.
Every time the US politicians look to remove this, they back away when the lobbyists kick up.

Then to avoid EU taxes, they create an Irish/Luxembourg company to sell to Europe, a Dutch company (tax system allows money transfers in free of tax),
another Irish 'incorporated' but no business operations in Ireland unlimited company with no employees (so pays no tax).
This transfers money to the Bermuda company.

The dutch intermediary means that Irish tax doesn't get charged on the transfer between the two irish companies.

The UK had a similar setup that allowed the creation of this second brass plate Irish company, but closed it a couple of decades ago. That's the part of it the Government could do if it chose.
I don't know that Ireland would benefit taxwise though. The money would be routed from the Netherlands to someplace else.

AllGunsBlazing

Germany have been no where near as vociferous as France when it comes our low corporation tax. But I reckon Merkel will come at us with a vengeance once she gets the elections out of the way.

Probably have the yanks leaning on us as well, because apple aren't breaking any laws.

WoollyRedHat

Listening to a guy on Newstalk talking about the issue. He has published a book on the subject of tax havens, which George Hook took the liberty of telling everyone who cared to listen that it was the Irish persons duty to buy such a book. How astute.

The guy basically used the rheotoric of democracy, as per usual, in terms of what is going on, with deals being done behind closed doors to facilitate these guys, without the consultation of the Irish. But in doing so it appeared to be condescending. Does he think the Irish people are unaware of how it works and how it helps us? The system is a mutually beneficial one for the main. Benefits the company and benefits the countries economy. What is the likelihood of the big multinational corporations using Ireland as a base if we did not have such lax tax laws? Slim I'd say... then it's the case, as someone else has pointed out already, of getting 2% as opposed to 0% loss the benefit of jobs and the damage to the local economy, should we comply with the big countries demands, as they would love us to do, sacrifice our advantage.. and to whose benefit? To us? Certainly not, bye bye Apple, bye bye Facebook etc. And for them? Also negative, they will go to another tax haven, not back to Germany, who would love to prise such companies away from us so as they might benefit them. As someone has already mentioned, these other countries also benefit from loopholes, and no complaints from us.

The guy then went on to appeal to the people of Ireland , and think of how we are hurting America... that is the American taxpayer, with the small guy having to shoulder the burden as a result. As if the American government don't avail of favourable terms to support their economy at the behest of others.. please. Nice bit of propaganda, that I don't think people should fall for... the American government should look at its own laws and how they are created with multinational corporations such as Apple etc. in mind, rather than find a scapegoat in Ireland as a tax haven, and as a result, "bad" with their people "guilty by association". Of course people like Hook and co. are more than happy to act as a mouthpiece for the usual bull**** rheotric as given by the U.S, Germany et. al. What about our burden? The Irish taxpayer would certainly suffer if such a system were changed, we would surely not retain the MNCS, why would we? As we provide highly educated workers? Part of the attraction sure, but certainly not the main reason, let's not be naive, as if we are the only country in the world that have such people...

One thing I will say, is if there are corporations that are facilitating of the loophole with no benefit to the taxpayer (i.e jobs, money for the economy.. etc.then such corporations should not be accomadated.

Otherwise we are a country, limited by geography and size, who should fully take advantage of such practices ... it's one of the few things the government has got right.

SEPT 23 1989

Kenny making a show of us again

awec

hfallada wrote: »

A tax haven is a letter box with billions going through a company with no one in it. Apple employees 4,000 people in Cork and although it makes everything in China. It has been in Ireland since 1983 which is only 3 years after it was founded. Ireland is the center of there European and middle eastern operations.

I find a lot of those senate meetings are BS as the republicans make up **** to justify anything

What's also important to note here is that Apple employ 4000 people in Cork.

Not Dublin, where the majority of these companies set up. I am sure those 4000 jobs are pretty important to the local area.

Peregrine

Rhys Essien wrote: »

For starters,could they not be made pay the 12.5%
Can we not close the bloody loopholes that allow them away with paying next to feckall.The American corporate tax rate is 35% while ours is among the lowest is the world.

Also,AFAIK most of those 4,000 positions are tempory contracts,like a conveyor belt,saving more money by not making people permanent.

I'm pretty sure they pay 12.5% of profits they make in Ireland. The rest isn't our money and they're moving it through here legally.

They pay tax on Irish profits, they provide thousands of jobs to the Irish people. Idk about Apple but the likes of Google and Microsoft employ over 2,500 IT professionals each and I'm pretty sure they still have jobs up for grabs in Ireland.

awec

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Listening to a guy on Newstalk talking about the issue. He has published a book on the subject of tax havens, which George Hook took the liberty of telling everyone who cared to listen that it was the Irish persons duty to buy such a book. How astute.

The guy basically used the rheotoric of democracy, as per usual, in terms of what is going on, with deals being done behind closed doors to facilitate these guys, without the consultation of the Irish. But in doing so it appeared to be condescending. Does he think the Irish people are unaware of how it works and how it helps us? The system is a mutually beneficial one for the main. Benefits the company and benefits the countries economy. What is the likelihood of the big multinational corporations using Ireland as a base if we did not have such lax tax laws? Slim I'd say... then it's the case, as someone else has pointed out already, of getting 2% as opposed to 0% loss the benefit of jobs and the damage to the local economy, should we comply with the big countries demands, as they would love us to do, sacrifice our advantage.. and to whose benefit? To us? Certainly not, bye bye Apple, bye bye Facebook etc. And for them? Also negative, they will go to another tax haven, not back to Germany, who would love to prise such companies away from us so as they might benefit them. As someone has already mentioned, these other countries also benefit from loopholes, and no complaints from us.

The guy then went on to appeal to the people of Ireland , and think of how we are hurting America... that is the American taxpayer, with the small guy having to shoulder the burden as a result. As if the American government don't avail of favourable terms to support their economy at the behest of others.. please. Nice bit of propaganda, that I don't think people should fall for... the American government should look at its own laws and how they are created with multinational corporations such as Apple etc. in mind, rather than find a scapegoat in Ireland as a tax haven, and as a result, "bad" with their people "guilty by association". Of course people like Hook and co. are more than happy to act as a mouthpiece for the usual bull**** rheotric as given by the U.S, Germany et. al. What about our burden? The Irish taxpayer would certainly suffer if such a system were changed, we would surely not retain the MNCS, why would we? As we provide highly educated workers? Part of the attraction sure, but certainly not the main reason, let's not be naive, as if we are the only country in the world that have such people...

One thing I will say, is if there are corporations that are facilitating of the loophole with no benefit to the taxpayer (i.e jobs, money for the economy.. etc.then such corporations should not be accomadated.

Otherwise we are a country, limited by geography and size, who should fully take advantage of such practices ... it's one of the few things the government has got right.

This "without consultation" stuff is a load of nonsense. Politicians are elected to govern on our behalf, the system is not designed that they need to ask the opinion of the electorate on all issues otherwise nothing would ever get done.

Gran Hermano

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Should Apple not just buy Ireland with the money they have amassed in tax avoidance?.They would get us cheap.:D

Apple to launch iRELAND and patent the colour green.

K-9

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I've decided to 'do a Google' on it myself.

From now on AnonoBoy is a floating international entity with no base anywhere and therefore not liable for income tax...........


..... OH NO!!!! I'VE BECOME A FREEMAN!!!! :eek:

Excellent point. Apple have some subsidiaries that aren't tax resident anywhere, as you say a corporate freeman.

Many of the people who take the piss and rightly mock the freemen boloxology seem perfectly happy for Apple to pull a similar stunt.