Waterford Politics Discussions Banned from Waterford Forum

Bards

Is it right that all Political discussion in the Waterford City Forum can now only be spoken of in One Meghathread.

Therefore any political reference to Downgrading of Hospitals, Councillors Junkets, Local Property Tax, Speed Limits, etc etc will have to be done in One Thread where the impact is lost.

Bear in Mind that we have a Mod of the Waterford CIty Forum who is a member of the FG Party, now call me cynical but I think what we have here is notihng more than attempt to stiffle proper debate about a Party in Governemnt, to which that Mod is a member.

There was never a problem when FF were in Power, but only has become an issue over the last 2 years or so.

There was never a poll taken, not one meber of the forum, no matter who long they have contributed to the forum was ever asked for an opinion, and don't forget ladies and gentlemen the Forum exists for the benefit of members, not the mods. It is their duty to Moderate the Forum not Stiffle debate.

Hey we're not even allowed to discuss the Pros and Cons of this decision in the actual Thread itself:eek:

Mods - Never loose sight of this fact. Without the members posting there would be no forum to Moderate.

So Mods, please go back to the way it was and do your job, or let someone else do it for you if you don't want to do it anymore.

Thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056951062&page=3

The Hill Billy

I wish to make one point very clear at the outset of this thread...

The setting up of the politics megathread in Waterford City forum was discussed & agreed upon by the entire mod team & was sanctioned by the Region CMods.

Your accusation that debate is being stifled due to one moderator's association with a political party is completely wrong. The moderator you allude to - Sully - has always been open & honest about his political affiliations & he does not actively moderate politically-related threads in the forums he mods.

tHB

Dades

This was not a decision made by the [mod in question].

The decision to change things in the Waterford forum was made at all levels, because a lot of people were incapable of having an adult discussion and were poisoning the forum with constant bickering and political in-fighting.

It should never have had to come to this.

ziedth

I'm swamped today bards so I'll put what I'm saying into points to cut down the waffle,

I am a member of the forum first and mod second. I only ever became a mod to try and benefit the forum.

It is against every charter on the site that you can't debate mod action, that's why this forum is here in the first place.

The entire mod team are in agreement that the "old way" wasn't working. Nobody wanted this step taken but the forum has become poison when it comes to politics and we need a sure fire way to easily find away to get everyone singing off the same sheet.

The fact that there was never an issue when FF were in power is irrelevant. The topic that is causing all this hassle is irrelevant. If every second thread was being highjacked by those for and against the student union the exact same thing would have happened.

The "do your job" part of your post in infuriating. We are volunteers and what we do in our spare time for the benefit of the forum and its members.


Now, I'm hoping this isn't a long or medium term solution. If the megathread can tick along with fair and healthy debate within the charter then I'll be the first to bring it to the rest of the team to chance the original way.

Bards

Dades wrote: »

This was not a decision made by the [mod in question].

The decision to change things in the Waterford forum was made at all levels, because a lot of people were incapable of having an adult discussion and were poisoning the forum with constant bickering and political in-fighting.

It should never have had to come to this.

It would not have come to this if the modes handed out Infractions and Bans, I presume there are only 1 or 2 postes at fault, while the rest of us law abiding posters have to pay for their sins - It's not right and it's not just.

Sully

May I just clarify that I am not a member of the party, or any of its fan bases / supporter group, Furthermore, I didn't come up with this idea and have had little or nothing to do with moderation of political threads in sometime now due to my 'bias'. I'm probably one of few in the forum that decided to be open about my politics which has resulted in completely unfounded (not one item of proof, not even a hint) accusations against me. Or as a politician might say, 'scurrilous accusations'.

EDIT: Its also worth pointing out that there was never this level of political discussion in the forum until the past year or so, mainly down to government policy that impacted on Waterford and perceived lack of policy to help Waterford out of its 'black hole'.

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

Bear in Mind that we have a Mod of the Waterford CIty Forum who is a member of the FG Party, now call me cynical but I think what we have here is notihng more than attempt to stiffle proper debate about a Party in Governemnt, to which that Mod is a member.

Just to get this out in the open,

Sully certainly didn't propose the Megathread idea, neither did he propose the rules for it.

Although I've made it 100% clear in the past I'll also confirm it once again, I have no political affiliations and I don't blindly hate the government no matter what like some users are very guilty of.

Instead I'll look at any political group and look at their policies and decide if they are good or bad, at the end of the day every party has good and bad ideas.

Some users on the forum have continuously stated Sully is biased in his moderation, yet what they fail to actually note is Sully takes a back seat in political threads he posts in and as such his moderation doesn't even come into it.

It seems some users hatred of FG blindly extends out to Sully's moderation which is completely unfair just because he has a different view to these posters.

Finally, the feedback forum exists for exactly that...feedback and thats why I directed you here.

Bards

ziedth wrote: »

The "do your job" part of your post in infuriating. We are volunteers and what we do in our spare time for the benefit of the forum and its members..

Hi Ziedth,

I only phrased it that way because a Mod* did say that they had no interest in politicas and couldn't be bothered to read and mod threads that had turned political.

Edit: * http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056954460&page=2 Post #18

"Aside from that fact, some of the mods don't have an interest in politics so wont be reading over the threads."

The Hill Billy

FYI - Some confusion lead to a redirect of feedback on that thread to this forum. I have set up a feedback thread in Waterford City for discussion.

tHB

Bards

The Hill Billy wrote: »

FYI - Some confusion lead to a redirect of feedback on that thread to this forum. I have set up a feedback thread in Waterford City for discussion.

tHB

can we merge this thread in there also please?

Sully

Bards wrote: »

Hi Ziedth,

I only phrased it that way because a Mod* did say that they had no interest in politicas and couldn't be bothered to read and mod threads that had turned political.

Edit: * http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056954460&page=2 Post #18

"Aside from that fact, some of the mods don't have an interest in politics so wont be reading over the threads."

'couldn't be bothered' is a bit of a misrepresentation of what I said now! Just like this thread title - Political discussion isn't banned from the Waterford forum!

The lads agreed to mod the Waterford Forum and I don't think anybody expected that there would be a large element of political discussion as there is a Politics Forum to discuss political issues. Matters of local council politics is a lot different to the bigger national government issues. This has been an issue going way back, before it escalated.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

'couldn't be bothered' is a bit of a misrepresentation of what I said now! Just like this thread title - Political discussion isn't banned from the Waterford forum!

The lads agreed to mod the Waterford Forum and I don't think anybody expected that there would be a large element of political discussion as there is a Politics Forum to discuss political issues. Matters of local council politics is a lot different to the bigger national government issues. This has been an issue going way back, before it escalated.

The Waterford Forum is by far the busiest foum in the South East, Any time I look there are in excess of 40 viewers, and only a handful in the other S.E forums.

Maybe the workload is too much and you need to appoint other Mods to keep up?

Edit: I quoted you Word for Word - "Aside from that fact, some of the mods don't have an interest in politics so wont be reading over the threads."

Sully

Bards wrote: »

The Waterford Forum is by far the busiest foum in the South East, Any time I look there are in excess of 40 viewers, and only a handful in the other S.E forums.

Maybe the workload is too much and you need to appoint other Mods to keep up?

We have - Cabaal and Captain Havoc are new. Cabaal has already been accused of being connected to the government and having a political bias! Because he was from Kilkenny, it irked a few people also.

There were threads being dragged into politics left right and center. Numerous individuals making personal attacks to make their argument hold water. It was going at a very fast pace. A lot of reported posts coming in throughout the day, more than normal. The lads aren't on 24/7 - its voluntary and its been a sudden spike. I stayed well away from modding these threads and users for a long time due to my political following and to ensure it was fair. Still, I was accused of modding a political thread on Saturday - even though I went nowhere near it!

We, as a group and the CMods, spotted this problem and have been trying to discuss ways of dealing with it for a number of weeks now. Numerous proposals were put forward and it was felt a megathread would be the best solution - for the shorterm ideally.

Bards

In That case I will abstain from posting in the Waterford City Forum as a form of silent protest (apart from this feedback thread) until it has retunred to normal operation.

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

The Waterford Forum is by far the busiest foum in the South East, Any time I look there are in excess of 40 viewers, and only a handful in the other S.E forums.

Maybe the workload is too much and you need to appoint other Mods to keep up?

Edit: I quoted you Word for Word - "Aside from that fact, some of the mods don't have an interest in politics so wont be reading over the threads."

Forum already has 5 mods and 2 cmods,
In comparison the busiest forum on boards.ie which is after hours has 7 mods and 5 cmods.

The Waterford forum is no where near as busy as the After Hours forum or even the likes of the Broadband forum which I moderate.

However, the Waterford forum is intended for discussions about Waterford and is not intended as a political forum like some users seem to think it is.

Much of what is posted is sidetracked and is far more suited to the politics forum then the Waterford forum.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Bards wrote: »

In That case I will abstain from posting in the Waterford City Forum as a form of silent protest (apart from this feedback thread) until it has retunred to normal operation.

You're just cutting your nose off to spite your face in that case. Clearly things were changed with good reason and it looks extremely unlikely that they're going to go back to the way that you want.

Bards

Cabaal wrote: »

Forum already has 5 mods and 2 cmods,
In comparison the busiest forum on boards.ie which is after hours has 7 mods and 5 cmods.

The Waterford forum is no where near as busy as the After Hours forum or even the likes of the Broadband forum which I moderate.

However, the Waterford forum is intended for discussions about Waterford and is not intended as a political forum like some users seem to think it is.

Much of what is posted is sidetracked and is far more suited to the politics forum then the Waterford forum.

.... and I ask again, why wasn't the Waterford City fourm moded properly like all the other regional Fora.

Why isn't all political talk banned from all regional fora, and not just the Waterford City Forum?

Consisteny accross Forums is all that I ask

The Hill Billy

Each Regional forum has its own flavour & idiosyncracies - hence each is modded in accordance with its needs.

If we dictated such rules to be applied across all region forum we would be accused of over-modding & being overly strict.

We just can't please all of the people all of the time. We need to be somewhat flexible to make each forum an enjoyable & informative place for local to post & read.

The Muppet

ziedth wrote: »

It is against every charter on the site that you can't debate mod action, that's why this forum is here in the first place.

The entire mod team are in agreement that the "old way" wasn't working. Nobody wanted this step taken but the forum has become poison when it comes to politics and we need a sure fire way to easily find away to get everyone singing off the same sheet.

I have little to say about this issue or the personalities involved except the the obvious wider question raised by what I have highlighted above . Perhaps I misunderstood your point and you will clarify what you mean but why is it necessary "to have everyone singing from the same sheet in any forum here"?

That's not the way of discussion in general public, why would here be different?

MitchKoobski

I said this in the thread on the forum itself, but I completely agree with having a politics megathread there. It was getting ridiculous.

2/3 threads started on the forum would end up in in arguments about politics and childish nitpicking and taunting.

Many posters who were initiating these arguments would cry censorship whenever they were asked to reel it in because the thread was nothing to do with politics or who was moderating it. I think one of them even wanted a politics sub-forum for the Waterford City forum.

This has been going on for nearly a year. Megathread was badly needed.

Chips Lovell

Not every forum is the same. For example, there's little or no political discussion on the Dublin forum. Different forums have different dynamics and thus different rules.

It's like asking why isn't the Soccer forum modded the same as the Cycling forum.

Sully

Bards wrote: »

In That case I will abstain from posting in the Waterford City Forum as a form of silent protest (apart from this feedback thread) until it has retunred to normal operation.

Well that's a shame, but its your choice.

We are trying to do our best by the majority of people on the forum who are sick to death of the fighting and politics being left right and center. Not everybody has the passion of politics like you and me. We also need to do what's practical from a moderation point of view.

This thread will be in place for the foreseeable future as its the best approach. Personally, I liked the old way without the abuse and being spread out everywhere. So hopefully we can go back to that at some stage. But right now, its the only logical solution if you want political discussions.

- Its not censorship as you claimed earlier because the topic is still being allowed discussed and its still being discussed in the Waterford forum.

- Its not being banned as you said in this thread, for the reasons I explained re: censorship.

- Its also not got to do with my political views, which I have been open and honest about unlike many, because I am one small member of a team and my views don't really count seeing as I wont (and haven't in a long time) be moderating the threads. But even so, it was decided by ALL mods and ALL Cmods for the forum/category who discussed various options over a period of time. It also wasn't my proposal and I didn't actually put forward one IIRC.

Sadly, in life we can't please everyone. We can see that in Politics alone, but even just for forum issues - the megathread wont please everyone. We can't, no matter how hard we tried.

Also, a Feedback Thread was created in the Waterford Forum as you requested. Probably best we continue it over there until an Admin is able to merge this thread within.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Also, a Feedback Thread was created in the Waterford Forum as you requested. Probably best we continue it over there until an Admin is able to merge this thread within.

That is not correct.

I created a Feedback thread in the Feedback Area under SYS as requested. When this was then created with several replies a Mod decided to create one under Waterford City - why?

Sully

Bards wrote: »

That is not correct.

I created a Feedback thread in the Feedback Area under SYS as requested. When this was then created with several replies a Mod decided to create one under Waterford City - why?

You said in your first post here..

Hey we're not even allowed to discuss the Pros and Cons of this decision in the actual Thread itself:eek:

ziedth recommended you post here, as its standard site policy for Feedback threads to go here. This is what we have always been told to do but exceptions are common enough.

One of the CMods, The Hill Billy, thought it would be best in the Waterford City forum allowing us all to discuss it there and that would be fulfilling your request (in part at least - instead of on the megathread, it had its own feedback thread). He split the posts from the mega thread complaining into a new Feedback thread in the Waterford City forum. It wasn't hidden - as you said it was.

Its confusing, ill give you that, but a Feedback thread in the Waterford Forum is created as requested (and you also did say in the Megathread you would have liked to have been consulted on the change). You posted here as originally requested, but you can use the Feedback thread in the Waterford Forum now that its there. (That's a bit of tongue twister!)

Only an Admin can merge threads from here. I assume an Admin isn't available to do so yet.

The Hill Billy

I had already requested that a Feedback thread be created on Monday evening, however, my request was misunderstood & you were asked to create one here instead in error.

I have now rectified the situation.

tHB

ziedth

The Muppet wrote: »

I have little to say about this issue or the personalities involved except the the obvious wider question raised by what I have highlighted above . Perhaps I misunderstood your point and you will clarify what you mean but why is it necessary "to have everyone singing from the same sheet in any forum here"?

That's not the way of discussion in general public, why would here be different?

I see the confusion,

What I mean by singing off the same sheet is for everyone to follow the new charter not what is being discussed.

To put it another way once everyone seems to be playing nice for an undefined amount of time I'd be happy to suggest closing the megathread.

ziedth

Bards wrote: »

In That case I will abstain from posting in the Waterford City Forum as a form of silent protest (apart from this feedback thread) until it has retunred to normal operation.

I'm sorry to hear that,

I always respected you as a poster and contributer to the forum but your protest won't make me change my or (I assume) anyone else's mind. If you got behind the new method and helped steer debate and report posts then the old way will hopefully come back faster. which I'd imagine everyone would prefer just with the "new" rules in place.

Dades

Bards wrote: »

Consisteny accross Forums is all that I ask

Consistancy would be to not facilitate repetitive political debate in a forum other than Politics.

I'm not inclined to merge the feedback threads, tbh, and the result would be an unholy mess. Also, since Bards has decided to not post in the forum indefinitely, one feedback thread should at least remain here.

KevIRL

To be honest I can understand the frustration when it comes to discussing anything on the Waterford forum that has a political element. Those who are against the government and those who support the government just seem to want to score petty points against each other as opposed to discuss actual events. Unfortunately the reasoned posts often get lost in the noise. Personally I mostly gave up any input into these type of threads some time ago due to the pettiness and sniping that is involved.

I can understand the mods frustration with this and desire to have less of this type of carry on. I am sure many users on the forum just roll their eyes and go elsewhere. However is the answer to just restrict any political related posting to one thread? I'm not so sure, a political edge will come into many threads, and it could get very messy quickly. A political megathread at election time works, but outside of that I'd have doubts.

The answer in my opinion is to moderate the people who act the dick, who insist of turning every announcement or bit of news into a cat and mouse point scoring. The likes of the first 2 posts on this thread, really arent condusive to getting genuine discussion going. Its baiting a reply from the 'other side' and the thread starts off with point scoring. I should point out here that posters who are anti-govt do the exact same thing on other threads. I highlighted this example as it is relatively fresh in the memory, and surely it cant help the mood and flow of a forum discussion if a moderator engages in it too.

I would also feel that engaging with the forum with a feedback thread before taking the decision to restrict the discussion would have been preferrable, take the 'pulse' of the forum if you will. It works on busier forums like Soccer and AH, and could very well have avoided the need for this thread for example.

Can I sign off this post by saying this is not just an attempt to have a dig at Sully. I have had disagreements with him in the past. He does valiantly engage in debate, and will make his point often very well. I gave the reasons for giving that particular post as an example and would like for my whole post to be considered and not for it to be written off as 'having a go' or similar.

Aquos76

I would also like to echo what has been said here by the other Waterford mods and the cmods, this decision was not taken lightly, we had quite a few discussions on what way we wanted to proceed, it had gotten to the point where the Waterford forum was a constant train wreck, there ware threads been reported left, right,and centre, many of these reports were simply because some users didn't like or agree with what another user posted, and yes, many reports were about Sully and his political allegiance.

For the good of the forum we had to do something, only time will tell if this is going to be the right way or not, but in all fairness, from a moderating point of view, it should make things easier for use to moderate, and also, it will clear up the forum of threads which constantly end in been turned in to political debates.

@Bards, I for one will miss you posting in the forum as I think over the years you have been an excellent and regular poster within the Waterford forum, but for the good of the forum, we have to try this way and see how it pans out.

Trick of the Tail

I want to add my voice to those opposing the politics mega thread.

That it makes it easier to moderate isn't a good reason to do it - if the Waterford City forum wasn't being moderated efficiently then fix the moderating!

Having just one thread for anything political is ridiculous. It effectively stifles debate, as the content of the thread, or what is currently being discussed isn't immediately obvious, so people are less likely to see a subject in which they have an interest, and to which they might make a useful contribution.

I see a thread about dog theft. Lack of policing of this might be down to Garda funding, oops, better put the whole thread into the political thread.

So much of our lives is connected to politics in some way, lumping it all into one thread is impractical, unhelpful and I believe, undemocratic in the context of this website.