Waterford Politics Discussions Banned from Waterford Forum

Bards

and now the Mods are in breach of their own revised charter, one rule for one and one rule for another

it's blatant favouritism, censorship, call it what you will, but it is against the new Charter.

Either a charter exists and everyone abides by it, or the revised charter be revoked. This lark that the topic is of significat importance so it is allowed is a cop-out and fudge to suit some people.

Thread is here if anyone cares to take a look

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056960319

K-9

That looks more than a political thread to me, indeed I'd say bringing politics into it, party or boards.ie! is a bit of a sideshow, the debate should be about whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.

MitchKoobski

Well that's a huge story for education in Waterford.

It's not "I disagree with something a politician said" thread #423.

Sully

Christ. Which thread are you using to give Feedback, I can't keep track. We respond to Feedback and your still having a go. The simple and short answer is: The Mega Thread stays for the foreseeable future.

A timeline after the events leading up to this megathread;

- You and a number of others responded to our Feedback thread saying you didn't agree with the approach. You asked for mods to, basically, do their job and moderate better. It was said it was impossible to have all issues in one thread. This was the general feel.

- We (the mods & Cmods) discussed the best approach while the feedback was ongoing. It was agreed that we wouldn't abandon the idea but would take a tougher stance moderation wise, as per feedback.

- The University issue was announced and a thread of its own was created by one of the people giving Feedback. The mods discussed it and it was was agreed that it should have a thread of its own but with strict moderation to keep it on topic and keep out the abuse. It was felt that such a large and an important issue shouldn't be lumped into the mega thread. This was in response to direct Feedback.

Overall, as I said, I don't want the megathread to stay. But it reached a point where it had to arrive for the smaller political day to day issues. Big threads that are of huge importance and are not daily run of the mill discussions on politics are better to have a dedicated well moderated thread. This will keep a tighter control on political discussions going into every single thread - a huge complaint so again, addressing feedback - and hopefully a period of this will prevent the continued abuse and personal remarks the threads consistently had over and over. This period will allow each and everyone of us who have engaged in these threads to reflect and have a bit of cop on (me included) and therefore allowing us go back to normal.

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

and now the Mods are in breach of their own revised charter, one rule for one and one rule for another

it's blatant favouritism, censorship, call it what you will, but it is against the new Charter.

Either a charter exists and everyone abides by it, or the revised charter be revoked. This lark that the topic is of significat importance so it is allowed is a cop-out and fudge to suit some people.

Thread is here if anyone cares to take a look

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056960319

The Uni discussion is a pretty big thing for Waterford and its felt that its much better to hold such a big separate issue in a separate thread for now as its not specifically politics, provided people don't go off-topic,

As can be seen on thread, there is a very very clear warning and so far with the exception of yourself dragging it off topic twice even after you were asked to take it to feedback or PM people have stayed within the actual topic at hand.

The thread is clearly not for a general bitch and moan about the government. If you want to do that take it to politics.

Finally, you sight the charter and politics megathread rules but clearly you've chosen to ignore the part where it says:

This is not an exhaustive list, and Moderator discretion remains.

In fairness it seems there is no pleasing you, when we started the megathread you complained and said you'd stop posting in the forum in an effort to get us to get rid of the megathread.

But then you continue to post and when we make an exception for a thread thats not specifically politics related and is very important to Waterford you want it merged into the megathread.

When you are told why its staying and if you had issues with it that you should take it to PM or feedback thread you continue to question the decision twice.

When I infracted you for questioning a mod decision you get unhappy about it and call it crap, yet mods have been complained about for not taking action in the past.

Leaving the thread is not about suiting some people as you put it, I couldn't give a monkeys if Sully posts in the thread or not or his views as I myself feel its best suited for a separate thread for now and I'm not the only one who shares this view.

Sully

K-9 wrote: »

That looks more than a political thread to me, indeed I'd say bringing politics into it, party or boards.ie! is a bit of a sideshow, the debate should be about whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.

It might be a bit hard to judge it but Waterford people have a huge issue with this and other governments. So normal discussions tend not to happen and it tends to have a wing of political referencing about them doing bad or good to Waterford with this. That's whats happening here and more to the point about exactly what they said they would do and whether that's what we are seeing.

nkay1985

I've stayed quiet on this whole thing but just thought I'd say my piece here. It looks to me like you've boxed yourselves into a corner by saying that political discussion in the Waterford forum goes in the megathread. It's plainly unworkable and within a week, the university announcement arrives to prove that point. Now we're at a kind of "it's going to be judged on an individual basis" type situation, as to whether an issue is allowed to have its own thread or not.

I can see why you all felt something had to be done and appreciate the difficulty of that. It had gotten to a point where, within a couple of pages, threads decended into a back and forth between a few people. I appreciate that you're all volunteers so it's tough to moderate that behaviour in the normal way but a megathread just can't work.

Waterford is one of the hardest-hit areas in the country over the last few years. We have also suffered from political discrimination by the parties in power for many, many years. These two points mean that people here are going to have political views and lots of topics feed into that: you can make an argument for almost anything having a political element to it so where's the line?

As far as I can see, the problem is a handful of posters who engage in a back and forth which turns your average user off. I know it's tough to moderate that in the normal way but I fear that's the only solution to the problem.

As to Sully's part in all of this, he has not acted as a moderator in political threads which is fine. The problem is that he's going to engage in this back and forth (don't get me wrong, he's not a bad offender but is obviously going to get drawn in every now and again) and, while not posting as a moderator, he still has his username in bold and the Waterford City forum under his name. As long as that's the case, it's going to be a point for certain people to pick at and is going to be a cause of trouble.

I know you're all trying to make the Waterford Forum as good as you can but I think this is a massively negative change that is unworkable and has soured the perspective of a number of longterm posters.

Sully

I commented earlier on why we have a megathread and why we have separate threads, its fairly clear cut and is in response to feedback. The smaller things in the megathread, the bigger things on their own. For now. This isn't suppose to be a permanent solution, its to address a massive headache for users and mods.

Moderator actions are always (supposed to be, and I do it 99% of the time) in bold. Other than that, we are individuals and not moderators. That's the sitewide rule & policy - very easy to understand. I don't think that's a major problem, people are being ingenue in their complaints in that regard.

I have an interest in politics the past few years and despite a small group upset that my opinion isn't in line with their own or meeting their own paranoia, its hardly fair that I be asked to stop posting just so they can rant among each other about how doomsday is everyday in Waterford. I'm not the only poster lynched or being accused as being sent by the government(!) - one poor bloke got the brunt of the forum for offering clarity on an issue in relation to WIT and funding.

Thankfully, this is in the minority in the forum. I'm guilty of biting the bait and repeatedly going over old ground and I shall strive to address that as its a waste of everyone's time - in particular those who are genuine and not trolling. That's my part and ill do my best not to let it happen again.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

I commented earlier on why we have a megathread and why we have separate threads, its fairly clear cut and is in response to feedback. The smaller things in the megathread, the bigger things on their own. .

The problem I have is quiet simple really.

What defines a Bigger thing?

Would Councillors expenses and Junkets be considered big or small, after all they are now spending the LPT on there so-called trips and courses? In my eyes that is a Big topic, but it is in the Mega Thread so must be considered small??

WRH, i would consider it big, but the Megathread and its directive was setup shortly after the Higgins report was announced

What defines small? I have no idea?

So in my opinion, No, it is not clear cut - There are in fact no guidelines to define what is big or what is small.

As far as posters are concerned (I'll include myself in this) all Topics should be treated equally as they are all important regardless or whether Mods see them as Big or Small. This gets us over the Double-standrards and Double-Speak that is going on at the moment.

All I, and other long time posters are asking is that the Mega thread be dropped and we can get back to business as usual, without fear that our posts will be deleted when it suits some people.

P.S I have no problem with you personally, I will always attack the Post and not the Poster

Trick of the Tail

Sully a dit: "The smaller things in the megathread, the bigger things on their own. "

How do I know, or judge when starting a thread, what constitutes a 'smaller' or a 'bigger' thing?

Guidelines please?

This is plainly ridiculous, and I have to say one of the most silly things Boards has ever done in all the years I've been on here.

The question of whether Sully has a conflict of interest in being a mod and being so politically opinionated should be raised; should a mod reside in the area of the forum he's moderating? Should he have posted as a ordinary person in a thread he later moderates?

All questions that should be addressed, before imposing a badly thought-out, badly implemented and unworkable 'solution'.


Edit: Bards and I obviously composing simultaneously - I agree with his post above completely.

Sully

Bards wrote: »

All I, and other long time posters are asking is that the Mega thread be dropped and we can get back to business as usual, without fear that our posts will be deleted when it suits some people.

P.S I have no problem with you personally, I will always attack the Post and not the Poster

Sorry, are you accusing me or one of the moderation team of deleting posts without warrant? That seems like a personal remark to me, Bards. We have always modded the forum by the book and been very lenient.

As for what's big news and what's small news - I would have thought that expenses isn't a big deal for the South East or Waterford whereas University is very much big news. It appears rather obvious what's big and what's small.

You said you were finished in the forum but your still engaging - was that an empty threat to make us change our mind? Because you have kept engaging and posting despite the megathread still being there? I do hope it was a change of heart, as it would be a shame to see posters leave the forum over a small matter.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Sorry, are you accusing me or one of the moderation team of deleting posts without warrant? That seems like a personal remark to me, Bards. We have always modded the forum by the book and been very lenient. .

No I am not accusing you or any Mod of deleting any Post.

However, Please look at the title of The Mega Thread it states "Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD *politics posts outside of this thread WILL be deleted*"

This is what I am referring to

I am not attacking anyone.

I Also, stated I would not be posting in the Waterford Forum, except Feedback and on the topic of this

Sully

Bards wrote: »

No I am not accusing you or any Mod of deleting any Post.

However, Please look at the title of The Mega Thread it states "Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD *politics posts outside of this thread WILL be deleted*"

This is what I am referring to

I am not attacking anyone.

I Also, stated I would not be posting in the Waterford Forum, except Feedback and on the topic of this

With the obvious exception of the University Thread. Which was discussed (and an admin can verify this, as it was discussed in the mod forum) shortly after being posted what approach would be taken and it was agreed it shouldn't be in the megathread and would be on its own but heavily moderated to be on topic. Hence why the megathread is still active and other unrelated smaller political discussions are being discussed.

For a fella who said its not personal - your opening remark in the first post was a personal remark and suggestive of improper behaviour by me. Whatever about attacking my political views, I would appreciate you (and others) didn't stoop as low as making unfounded attacks on my character.

This issue has been discussed at length (in the mod forum) before and after the megathread was created and you and others feedback is being noted and attempts at addressing it in part without opening the flood gates (just yet) is undergoing hence the megathread. But the sarcastic undertones and remarks since offering a little leeway suggests that the forum isn't ready to go back to normal considering there has been infractions and bans issued already since we offered the little nugget.

I don't think its fair to suggest that mods should be issuing bans and infractions left right and center just to keep a small few happy by having political threads scattered all over the place. We should all (me included) have a bit more cop on when posting to allow for civilised rational discussions without needing heavy moderation. Until the group of users are willing to engage like adults, than the thread will have to remain (as much as it pains me to say it) as agreed by ALL mods.

Bards

...anyway I think I've said all there is to say on this topic and I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat war of words, so I will now bow out of Feedback & the Waterford City forum until things return to normal.

I have also now stopped following the Waterford City forum so I won't be distracted going forward, so would like a PM at some point in the future if things do return to normal operation.

Thanks for the last 9 years and best of luck in the future.

Trotter

Sully wrote: »

...despite a small group upset that my opinion isn't in line with their own or meeting their own paranoia, its hardly fair that I be asked to stop posting just so they can rant among each other about how doomsday is everyday in Waterford.

The words chosen here in this post are an example of whats igniting the issues in the forum. I respectfully don't agree with your views. However my views are not paranoid. My family has suffered because of decisions made by those that are consistently supported. Statistics show Waterford to be disproportionately suffering from unemployment. My wife has lost her job. That's not paranoia.

Luckily I see a future for Waterford but its despite Irish politicians not because of it. I don't see Waterford in a doomsday scenario but I certainly wouldn't begrudge that opinion from someone who has lost all of their family income and sees as I do that many of the positivity laden announcements are void of any use to them.

There's a lack of respect in the above post (which I don't believe is intended, its just overenthusiastic use of politician-like speak) for those who may not be as lucky as you. They are not paranoid, and lying awake at night wondering how they'll feed their kids and whether they'll wave them off to Australia / Canada some day because of the neglect of this region is their doomsday. That scenario is real and should be respected on this forum.

nkay1985

Sully wrote: »

I commented earlier on why we have a megathread and why we have separate threads, its fairly clear cut and is in response to feedback. The smaller things in the megathread, the bigger things on their own. For now. This isn't suppose to be a permanent solution, its to address a massive headache for users and mods.

Moderator actions are always (supposed to be, and I do it 99% of the time) in bold. Other than that, we are individuals and not moderators. That's the sitewide rule & policy - very easy to understand. I don't think that's a major problem, people are being ingenue in their complaints in that regard.

I have an interest in politics the past few years and despite a small group upset that my opinion isn't in line with their own or meeting their own paranoia, its hardly fair that I be asked to stop posting just so they can rant among each other about how doomsday is everyday in Waterford. I'm not the only poster lynched or being accused as being sent by the government(!) - one poor bloke got the brunt of the forum for offering clarity on an issue in relation to WIT and funding.

Thankfully, this is in the minority in the forum. I'm guilty of biting the bait and repeatedly going over old ground and I shall strive to address that as its a waste of everyone's time - in particular those who are genuine and not trolling. That's my part and ill do my best not to let it happen again.

The other guys have addressed the big thing/little thing issue so I'll not retread old ground. Suffice to say that my view still stands that it's unworkable and ridiculous - the sticky says "Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD *politics posts outside of this thread WILL be deleted*". Unless you're going to add "unless the mod team decides it's a big enough issue, so I suppose go ahead and start a separate thread and we'll take a look and let you know" to that title, it's very far from clear cut.

I didn't say it was fair that, as long as you post on these topics and are a mod of the forum, people will use that as a stick to beat you and the mods/forum in general with. I just said that's the case and it is.

Between my first post and this one, I don't have a lot more to say really. My feelings are unchanged and I think it's an overwhelmingly negative change for the forum and one that will have to be reversed at some point in the relatively near future. We'll wait and see, I suppose.

Trick of the Tail

Indeed, your first para above hits the nail on the bonce.

The megathread situation is preposterous.

I've surprised and disappointed in the Boards admins for going with this, with it's obvious flaws and problems.

I suspect Bards (who is a valuable poster in my opinion) will not be the only person to desert - which is a shame.

It does seem that the overwhelming majority of folk who have expressed an opinion on this thread are of one mind.

Let's hope sense and democracy prevails.

RoundyMooney

A fresh look at this solution, regarding a situation where someone has soapboxed themselves into a corner, resulting in this silly outcome, would probably be constructive at this time.

The forum, and free discourse (within the sitewide rules) should come first-not an overengineered and unwieldy mechanism, which solves nothing and only serves to confuse the users.

KevIRL

Is it safe to say this idea hasnt worked and its okay to post as previously in the Waterford City forum? The sticky is still there, but looking at a few threads from over the past week or soit seems that all is back to normal

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056312935 recent political related stuff from post 72

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056959068 entire thread is political related

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056647129 post 148

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056962560 entire thread political related

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056960319 entire thread political related (this is the contentious technological uni thread which it was decreed was okay for political discussion)

I highlight these not to be critical of the people who posted in them but it shows how unworkable the original idea is. The sticky is still there, it causes confusion, gets the occasional post but needs to go.

I realise the weather is nice, we've just had a bank holiday weekend and the volunteer mods have lives away from Boards.ie, there has been other items moderated though and it would be nice to have this mess resolved