Renting an apartment that's also for sale

JaMarcus Hustle

Hey guys, quick question -

Say I wanted to rent an apartment that was listed for rent, but at the same time, it was also listed as for sale.

If I signed a 12 month lease, what would happen if the landlord suddenly received an offer they were happy to accept after 2/3 months from a buyer who had no intention of continuing to rent it out - could I be chucked out legally? Would I get a certain amount of notice, or would I be entitled to stay the full 12 months?

Could it be written into the lease at my request that the landlord has to de-list the apartment during my tenancy? Basically, I don't want to move in somewhere where there's a possibility of being turfed out if a bid is made while I'm there, and I also really, really don't want sporadic apartment viewings from potential buyers while I'm renting the place.

Any advice appreciated, thanks.

Grandpa Hassan

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Hey guys, quick question -

Say I wanted to rent an apartment that was listed for rent, but at the same time, it was also listed as for sale.

If I signed a 12 month lease, what would happen if the landlord suddenly received an offer they were happy to accept after 2/3 months from a buyer who had no intention of continuing to rent it out - could I be chucked out legally? Would I get a certain amount of notice, or would I be entitled to stay the full 12 months?

Could it be written into the lease at my request that the landlord has to de-list the apartment during my tenancy? Basically, I don't want to move in somewhere where there's a possibility of being turfed out if a bid is made while I'm there, and I also really, really don't want sporadic apartment viewings from potential buyers while I'm renting the place.

Any advice appreciated, thanks.

The new buyer has to abide by the terms of the lease. A change of landlord does not trigger any break clauses.

You will have to let people in for viewings (accompanied by agent / landlord), after appropriate notice is given, but it must be at times convenient for you as you have a right to uninterrupted enjoyment of the property. That said, you have an obligation to be 'reasonable'

Unless it was being bought by a property investor, you would likely not be able to stay after a year though....even if Part IV tenancy were enacted, the purchaser would terminate that Part IV on the basis that they want to move in to their new house.

odds_on

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The new buyer has to abide by the terms of the lease. A change of landlord does not trigger any break clauses.

You will have to let people in for viewings (accompanied by agent / landlord), after appropriate notice is given, but it must be at times convenient for you as you have a right to uninterrupted enjoyment of the property. That said, you have an obligation to be 'reasonable'

Unless it was being bought by a property investor, you would likely not be able to stay after a year though....even if Part IV tenancy were enacted, the purchaser would terminate that Part IV on the basis that they want to move in to their new house.

The tenant does not have to allow viewing either with or without landlord / agent.

The only rights a landlord has to entry is for periodic inspections at a mutually agreed time, or in an emergency.

For the OP, if you have a fixed term agreement, the only way a landlord can evict you is if you are in breach of your obligations.

Grandpa Hassan

odds_on wrote: »

The tenant does not have to allow viewing either with or without landlord / agent.

The only rights a landlord has to entry is for periodic inspections at a mutually agreed time, or in an emergency.

For the OP, if you have a fixed term agreement, the only way a landlord can evict you is if you are in breach of your obligations.

Tbh that's the kind of attitude that makes a functioning tenant landlord relationship impossible.

What's wrong with viewings when you're out?

OP if you are going to take that stance, get set to be evicted at the first possible opportunity....

odds_on

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Tbh that's the kind of attitude that makes a functioning tenant landlord relationship impossible.

What's wrong with viewings when you're out?

OP if you are going to take that stance, get set to be evicted at the first possible opportunity....

I, for one, certainly would not want landlord / agent AND a number of potential purchasers in my home while I was not there.

The fact is that the law is decidedly on the side of the tenant as regards his peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of his home.

The landlord, in this type of situation should seriously consider a Part 4 tenancy, in order to be able to evict a tenant more conveniently.

Grandpa Hassan

odds_on wrote: »

I, for one, certainly would not want landlord / agent AND a number of potential purchasers in my home while I was not there.

The fact is that the law is decidedly on the side of the tenant as regards his peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of his home.

The landlord, in this type of situation should seriously consider a Part 4 tenancy, in order to be able to evict a tenant more conveniently.

Which is exactly what the OP doesn't want.

OP, if you want to be there for a year, I suggest you develop a functioning relationship with your LL....

djimi

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Tbh that's the kind of attitude that makes a functioning tenant landlord relationship impossible.

What's wrong with viewings when you're out?

OP if you are going to take that stance, get set to be evicted at the first possible opportunity....

You rent a property to enjoy peaceful use as your home. This does not include the landlord trapsing strangers around your home, and it certainly does not include people poking around your home while you are not there. If the landlord wants to sell the property then they should not be renting it out, and if they want to rent it out then they need to accept that for the duration of the lease they have no right to intrude on the tenants right to peaceful enjoyment of the property.

Grandpa Hassan

djimi wrote: »

You rent a property to enjoy peaceful use as your home. This does not include the landlord trapsing strangers around your home, and it certainly does not include people poking around your home while you are not there. If the landlord wants to sell the property then they should not be renting it out, and if they want to rent it out then they need to accept that for the duration of the lease they have no right to intrude on the tenants right to peaceful enjoyment of the property.

Well then, the tenant would get evicted at the first possible opportunity.

So it's the tenants choice I guess.

IMO opinion it is a real a-hole thing to do, and typical of the attitude of many tenants. You're renting a house, the owner decides he / she wants or needs to sell, and you are effectively saying 'no....screw you...my peaceful enjoyment of the property includes when I'm at work'

That LL might not be a professional slum-lord, worthy of being given a hard time. It might be young guy or girl who has had to rent it as they have had to move away for work (like myself for example). And is now getting done over by an intransigent tenant. What if there's no break clause and you've 8 months left? You might end up bankrupting the LL if he / she needs to get out of the mortgage

That kind of tenant attitude is really unnecessary.

djimi

If somone signs a 12 month lease knowing that a property is for sale then Im sure they know that 12 months is all they are likely to have in the property. But for those 12 months they have every right to expect complete peaceful use of the property; for the guts of €10000, or possibly more, I dont think that is too much to expect.

I cant believe you are actually expecting tenants to allow people into their home while they are not there. I dont know of anyone, tenant or homeowner, who would be happy to allow this. Legally the landlord has no rights whatsoever to be in a tenants home in their absence barring extreme emergencies.

Harsh as it may sound, the landlords personal circumstances are not the concern of the tenant. If a landlord signs a fixed term lease then they do so knowing that they are giving the tenant security and peaceful privacy in their home for the duration of the lease. They are not getting "done over" if the tenant decides that they dont want to allow the landlord bring strangers into their home periodically for a good poke around.

The reality is that most sales will not go through while there is a sitting tenant in place, so if there is 8 months left on a fixed term lease and the landlord wants to sell then it really is their hard luck. Unless they can offer enough of an incentive to the tenant to leave (which no matter how the good the offer is the tenant is not obliged to accept) then they will not be selling the property while the lease is still active.

Grandpa Hassan

djimi wrote: »

If somone signs a 12 month lease knowing that a property is for sale then Im sure they know that 12 months is all they are likely to have in the property. But for those 12 months they have every right to expect complete peaceful use of the property; for the guts of €10000, or possibly more, I dont think that is too much to expect.

I cant believe you are actually expecting tenants to allow people into their home while they are not there. I dont know of anyone, tenant or homeowner, who would be happy to allow this. Legally the landlord has no rights whatsoever to be in a tenants home in their absence barring extreme emergencies.

Harsh as it may sound, the landlords personal circumstances are not the concern of the tenant. If a landlord signs a fixed term lease then they do so knowing that they are giving the tenant security and peaceful privacy in their home for the duration of the lease. They are not getting "done over" if the tenant decides that they dont want to allow the landlord bring strangers into their home periodically for a good poke around.

The reality is that most sales will not go through while there is a sitting tenant in place, so if there is 8 months left on a fixed term lease and the landlord wants to sell then it really is their hard luck. Unless they can offer enough of an incentive to the tenant to leave (which no matter how the good the offer is the tenant is not obliged to accept) then they will not be selling the property while the lease is still active.

Well, all I can say is that I'm glad you're not my tenant. I have a good, communicative relationship with mine, with felexbility shown on both sides from time to time.

Incidentally, the property I rent in London was sold with me in it, and I gave permission for viewings while I was at work. I never even noticed anything. I am not sure how you view properties, but, in my experience, poking around through peoples belongings is something that potential home purchasers actually do!

Again, I have a fully functioning relationship with my LL, and it definitely makes the stay a more relaxed one, with give and take on both sides

djimi

I also have a fully functioning relationship with my landlord; I rarely bother them and they never bother me! That to me is how it is supposed to be. Im not necessarily saying that I wouldnt be accomodating to my landlord if they were in this situation, but I disagree with this notion that you seem to have that tenants are obliged to cooperate with the landlord when it comes to a sale of the property, and that it represents an unhealthy relationship and an awkward tenant where cooperation is not granted. As a tenant I pay my money and I expect to be left alone to enjoy the property in peace for the duration of my lease. That is the first and most basic legal right of any tenant.

Most people would not be happy with the idea of strangers being in their home while they are not there. You may feel different, but you would be very much in the minority. Its not about the tenant being awkward; as far as Im concerned its an invasion of my privacy to expect to allow strangers into my house in my absence. For what its worth, the law backs me up on this.

JaMarcus Hustle

Thanks for the advice guys.

I'm not trying to be a difficult tenant - heck I'm not even the tenant at the moment, it's only one place I'm considering and this is part of the research I'm doing - if I'm not happy with how it would work, I won't take the apartment. I'm not going to go looking for a living situation and landlord-tenant relationship I'm not comfortable with.

I don't fancy the idea of allowing, who are to me, complete strangers into my home to browse around with all my possessions and comforts on display. To some that might not be a big deal, but it's not something I'm comfortable with. I could understand if it was approaching the end of our lease, but I don't want that to be a situation that could occur at anytime from Day 1. If that's unreasonable, then call me unreasonable, but I wouldn't take the apartment in that situation and would keep looking.

Just to confirm, if we did take the apartment and came to an agreement about the viewing situation, is there definitely no way the landlord can evict us upon sale of the apartment (assuming we're good tenants and have not violated any terms of the lease, as expected)? I read conflicting information on citizensinformation website but may have misunderstood.

djimi

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Just to confirm, if we did take the apartment and came to an agreement about the viewing situation, is there definitely no way the landlord can evict us upon sale of the apartment (assuming we're good tenants and have not violated any terms of the lease, as expected)? I read conflicting information on citizensinformation website but may have misunderstood.

Once you have a fixed term lease you are there for the duration of that lease provided you pay your rent and dont give the landlord a reason to evice you (breach of lease, antisocial behaviour etc). If the landlord sells the property during the duration of the lease then he does so with sitting tenants, and the new owners become your landlord and cannot take occupancy until the lease expires and they can issue you with notice to vacate under the part 4 tenancy terms.

The landlord may try and write into the lease the various break clauses that exist in the part 4 tenancy (the ability to issue notice of termination should they need the property for themselves/a family member, wish to sell the property etc), but having enquired about this I have been told that such a clause in a lease, even if signed by a tenant, has no legal standing and any notice of termination issued for these reasons while the fixed term lease is still in effect would be invalid.

valleyoftheunos

I was in the exact same situation as the OP, ie we let a house that also for sale. It was never an issue, once we rented the house it was taken off the market. The LL knew that he would not be able to sell the house with us in it so he simply took it off the market, I imagine the same would apply here so its highly unlikely there would be viewings ongoing during a tenancy.

Incidentally its usual in most residential lettings for a clause whereby the tenant agrees to give access for viewings during the last month or two months of the tenancy.

And as I have said before any honest decent LL has zero interest in going through your personal belongings if doing an inspection or viewing in your absence. if you don't trust your LL perhaps you should rent elsewhere.

djimi

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

And as I have said before any honest decent LL has zero interest in going through your personal belongings if doing an inspection or viewing in your absence. if you don't trust your LL perhaps you should rent elsewhere.

First off, its not decent honest landlords that most people are worried about, and secondly when it comes to a sale viewing of a property its not just the landlord who is going to be looking around the property. The tenant has no idea who these people are that the landlord is bringing into their home, and frankly there is a good chance that the landlord doesnt either.

Grandpa Hassan

djimi wrote: »

First off, its not decent honest landlords that most people are worried about, and secondly when it comes to a sale viewing of a property its not just the landlord who is going to be looking around the property. The tenant has no idea who these people are that the landlord is bringing into their home, and frankly there is a good chance that the landlord doesnt either.

Incidentally, every flat I looked at in London to rent, was currently occupied by tenants coming to the end of their lease (albeit they were out at the time). None of the flats I had looked at were empty. With respect to my own place in Dublin, tenants were shown around in whilst there were other tenants living there and coming to the end of their lease.

My lease contains provision to allow viewings on reasonable notice in the last 2 months of the tenancy.

I think you are unnecessarily paranoid about future tenants / buyers coming in to the flat just to steal your stuff.....

valleyoftheunos

djimi wrote: »

First off, its not decent honest landlords that most people are worried about, and secondly when it comes to a sale viewing of a property its not just the landlord who is going to be looking around the property. The tenant has no idea who these people are that the landlord is bringing into their home, and frankly there is a good chance that the landlord doesnt either.

Have you never been to view a house that was still occupied? Its OT so lets not get into it but I fail to see the why it is such a huge issue, a viewing or or an inspection does not involve an invasion of privacy.

And besides the property is bound to come off the market once it is let so this won't arise.

djimi

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Have you never been to view a house that was still occupied? Its OT so lets not get into it but I fail to see the why it is such a huge issue, a viewing or or an inspection does not involve an invasion of privacy.

A viewing/inspection while the tenant is not there is an invansion of privacy in my eyes.

Ive been to viewings of course, but only while the tenant has been present. I wouldnt expect them to leave on my account, and I wouldnt be impressed with a potential landlord who did show the property while the tenant was still living there but was not present.

valleyoftheunos

djimi wrote: »

A viewing/inspection while the tenant is not there is an invansion of privacy in my eyes.

Why?

djimi wrote: »

Ive been to viewings of course, but only while the tenant has been present. I wouldnt expect them to leave on my account, and I wouldnt be impressed with a potential landlord who did show the property while the tenant was still living there but was not present.

Utter nonsense

djimi

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Incidentally, every flat I looked at in London to rent, was currently occupied by tenants coming to the end of their lease (albeit they were out at the time). None of the flats I had looked at were empty. With respect to my own place in Dublin, tenants were shown around in whilst there were other tenants living there and coming to the end of their lease.

My lease contains provision to allow viewings on reasonable notice in the last 2 months of the tenancy.

I think you are unnecessarily paranoid about future tenants / buyers coming in to the flat just to steal your stuff.....

I have no issue with viewings in the last month of the lease (two months is excessive), and fully expect it provided respectful notice is given and its not happening every evening of the week.

What I do have issue with is the idea of viewings for a sale which you seem to think should be allowed happen at any time during a tenancy, and also the idea of expecting a viewing to happen while the tenant is not present in the property. I am paranoid about people that I dont know coming into my home and looking around; I dont know who these people are and neither does the landlord. Why should I trust some random stranger in my home? You feel different and more power to you for it, but Im not that trusting.

djimi

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Why?

Because its a stranger going through my home when Im not there. I honestly have no idea why that is such a difficult concept to understand?

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Utter nonsense

If you say so. Shame you cant disagree in a respectful manner.

valleyoftheunos

djimi wrote: »

Because its a stranger going through my home when Im not there. I honestly have no idea why that is such a difficult concept to understand?

What have you got in your house that walking through it would amount to such an invasion? No one is going to look under your bed, no one is going to go through your underware.

djimi wrote: »

Ive been to viewings of course, but only while the tenant has been present. I wouldnt expect them to leave on my account, and I wouldnt be impressed with a potential landlord who did show the property while the tenant was still living there but was not present.

If you say so. Shame you cant disagree in a respectful manner.

Self serving guff deserves to be identified as such.

Grandpa Hassan

djimi wrote: »

I have no issue with viewings in the last month of the lease (two months is excessive), and fully expect it provided respectful notice is given and its not happening every evening of the week.

What I do have issue with is the idea of viewings for a sale which you seem to think should be allowed happen at any time during a tenancy, and also the idea of expecting a viewing to happen while the tenant is not present in the property. I am paranoid about people that I dont know coming into my home and looking around; I dont know who these people are and neither does the landlord. Why should I trust some random stranger in my home? You feel different and more power to you for it, but Im not that trusting.

You are right....I did see that my lease specifies that LLs / agents only have the right to enter to do inspections / maintenance (with appropriate notice). Viewings are only stipulated in the last 2 months. Personally I would let the LL go in with prospective buyers if I was at work at any time, in the interests of co-operation, but if you're not comfortable with that, then that's your perogative.

I guess though that if you have switched to a part IV in Ireland, you have to allow viewings in respect of a potential property sale at any time (with appropriate notice), or else you will just be given a termination notice on the basis that the house is to be sold.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I have lived in a house that was up for sale before, its a bit of a nightmare. Sure we kept the place clean, but live in clean. Not show house clean. Any time there was a viewing coming up the landlord would be over to force a clean on us. He did stay and help to be fair but it felt like your parents forcing you to clean because your grandparents were visiting.

djimi

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

What have you got in your house that walking through it would amount to such an invasion? No one is going to look under your bed, no one is going to go through your underware.

Im not afraid of what they would see; Im afraid of what they would take. Whats to stop someone lifting something from the gf's jewellery box for example when the landlord/agents back is turned? At least if Im there then everyone in the house will be watched properly. I know I sound paranoid, but I have no idea why you think I should trust some random stranger who has shown up to look around my house?

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Self serving guff deserves to be identified as such.

If this is all that you are capable of bringing to the conversation then please dont respond to me again. If you disagree with something that I say that kindly have the courtesy to reply without having to decent into insults.

djimi

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I guess though that if you have switched to a part IV in Ireland, you have to allow viewings in respect of a potential property sale at any time (with appropriate notice), or else you will just be given a termination notice on the basis that the house is to be sold.

Yeah perhaps on a part 4 its a bit different alright. To be honest, if I was on a part 4 in a property that was for sale and viewings were looking like being a regular occurance then I would probably just start looking around for somewhere else to live. Chances are termination notice would be served in the not too distant future anyway, and Id rather save myself the hassle of having to accomodate viewings.

valleyoftheunos

djimi wrote: »

Im not afraid of what they would see; Im afraid of what they would take. Whats to stop someone lifting something from the gf's jewellery box for example when the landlord/agents back is turned? At least if Im there then everyone in the house will be watched properly. I know I sound paranoid, but I have no idea why you think I should trust some random stranger who has shown up to look around my house?

In fairness, that's different to an invasion of privacy. Fair enough its a concern but between the tenant taking reasonable precautions and the Agent being Liable for the conduct of anyone they bring in I do think you are being paranoid.

Its a fact of life, People need to view Houses and houses need to be viewed, it might be your perogative but your approach makes that much more difficult to the detriment of everyone involved.

djimi wrote: »

If this is all that you are capable of bringing to the conversation then please dont respond to me again. If you disagree with something that I say that kindly have the courtesy to reply without having to decent into insults.

I'm not insulting you, what I am suggesting is that its ridiculous and irrational to say that you would think less of a landlord for showing you a property without the current tenants being present, so much so that I don't believe you actually would because you are neither ridiculous nor irrational. You don't know the tenants or the agreement they have with the LL. In my own case I never want to be around when there is a viewing going on, its a really awkward moment for everyone.

valleyoftheunos

Gabriela Acidic Quota wrote: »

I have lived in a house that was up for sale before, its a bit of a nightmare. Sure we kept the place clean, but live in clean. Not show house clean. Any time there was a viewing coming up the landlord would be over to force a clean on us. He did stay and help to be fair but it felt like your parents forcing you to clean because your grandparents were visiting.

Wouldn't be happy with that at all.

djimi

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

In fairness, that's different to an invasion of privacy. Fair enough its a concern but between the tenant taking reasonable precautions and the Agent being Liable for the conduct of anyone they bring in I do think you are being paranoid.

Its a fact of life, People need to view Houses and houses need to be viewed, it might be your perogative but your approach makes that much more difficult to the detriment of everyone involved.

Maybe invasion of privacy is the wrong way to word it but to me it amounts to the same; its still a stranger going through my house when Im not there to keep an eye on them. I agree; I am being paranoid, but I dont really care. My possessions mean too much to me to put them at risk from strangers that I know nothing about! If that makes life more difficult to the landlord/agent who want to show the property then so be it; I would make sure that they had enough options available to them when I would be home to accomodate a viewing. Its up to them to sort themselves to work to one of those times.

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I'm not insulting you, what I am suggesting is that its ridiculous and irrational to say that you would think less of a landlord for showing you a property without the current tenants being present, so much so that I don't believe you actually would because you are neither ridiculous nor irrational. You don't know the tenants or the agreement they have with the LL. In my own case I never want to be around when there is a viewing going on, its a really awkward moment for everyone.

Part of me would question why the tenant wasnt there, and if the landlord asked them to leave or even asked their permission at all to view the property. I know its silly, but I have to think that that will be me in 12/24/36 months time. Okay, maybe it wouldnt put me off the landlord/property altogether, but the question would be in my mind, and awkward as it might be to view a property while the tenant is still there, personally I find it a lot more awkward to walk around someone elses house while they are not there.

Plus I like to actually talk to the tenant; get some feedback about things like electricity bills, utilities and the area in general. They can usually be a lot more helpful than the agent or landlord, who probably has little/no practical experience of living in the property.

valleyoftheunos

djimi wrote: »

Maybe invasion of privacy is the wrong way to word it but to me it amounts to the same; its still a stranger going through my house when Im not there to keep an eye on them. I agree; I am being paranoid, but I dont really care. My possessions mean too much to me to put them at risk from strangers that I know nothing about! If that makes life more difficult to the landlord/agent who want to show the property then so be it; I would make sure that they had enough options available to them when I would be home to accomodate a viewing. Its up to them to sort themselves to work to one of those times.


Part of me would question why the tenant wasnt there, and if the landlord asked them to leave or even asked their permission at all to view the property. I know its silly, but I have to think that that will be me in 12/24/36 months time. Okay, maybe it wouldnt put me off the landlord/property altogether, but the question would be in my mind, and awkward as it might be to view a property while the tenant is still there, personally I find it a lot more awkward to walk around someone elses house while they are not there.

Plus I like to actually talk to the tenant; get some feedback about things like electricity bills, utilities and the area in general. They can usually be a lot more helpful than the agent or landlord, who probably has little/no practical experience of living in the property.

As I said its your prerogative but you might also be affecting potential future tenants. The other thing is that you been there isn't necessarily going to stop someone there with the intention of stealing your things from doing so.

Finally I would suggest that you are over thinking things by wondering why the tenant is not there, my experience is simply that no one wants the Tenants around, not the Tenants themselves, the Agent or those viewing.