London - Suspected Terrorist Incident

space_man

inforfun wrote: »

Difference probably is that those murders in Ireland, the killers ran away and didnt want to be seen.

Yesterday this guy wanted to be seen, wanted his "message" recorded and basically threatened an entire nation.

i visit London on a regular basis, and the athmosphere in many of these areas is apalling & unfriendly, (quite different to the suburban and rural areas which haven't yet been colonised by 3rd world immigrants).

i would hate if our country became like those ghettos.
we need to wake up to this.

Stinicker

Stinicker wrote: »

The police who didn't shoot to kill in this instance should be sacked, these guys brains should have been blown out by the police the minute they rocked up.

Sacked? wtf

kling

Stinicker wrote: »

The reason things like this happen is because of that sort of politically correct attitude.

Really? You think these lads ran at armed police with blades and a gun because they thought they wouldn't be killed? Martyrdom (assuming that's their modus as self-described jihadists) usually involves getting killed.

I'd ponder this one a bit longer.

wes

Stinicker wrote: »

The reason things like this happen is because of that sort of politically correct attitude.

There is very little evidence that capital punishment is any kind of deterrent, especially when its comes to terrorism. A lot of these guys are willing to die for there cause.

kling

space_man wrote: »

i visit London on a regular basis, and the athmosphere in many of these areas is apalling & unfriendly, (quite different to the suburban and rural areas which haven't yet been colonised by 3rd world immigrants).

i would hate if our country became like those ghettos.
we need to wake up to this.

Bollix!

Next!

SEPT 23 1989

The west has to fight this "war" with one hand tied behind its back

Wattle

Stinicker wrote: »

The police who didn't shoot to kill in this instance should be sacked, these guys brains should have been blown out by the police the minute they rocked up.

Wouldn't it be better to have these guys in custody and grill them for all the information they possess? It might help in preventing future attacks. Shoot to kill and you lose all that information forever.

space_man

Stinicker wrote: »

The police who didn't shoot to kill in this instance should be sacked, these guys brains should have been blown out by the police the minute they rocked up.

disagree.
important to get whatever useful 'intelligence' from the animals first.
if they have an accident in prison after that, then .........

Ghost Buster

Stinicker wrote: »

The police who didn't shoot to kill in this instance should be sacked, these guys brains should have been blown out by the police the minute they rocked up.

See. The thing is that the police are supposed to uphold the law not break it. They arrest people. Thats Judge Dredd you're thinking about.

kling

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The west has to fight this "war" with one hand tied behind its back

Bollix!

Next!

Fratton Fred

wes wrote: »

There is very little evidence that capital punishment is any kind of deterrent, especially when its comes to terrorism. A lot of these guys are willing to die for there cause.

Exactly. I can't see the July 7th bombers being put off by a hangman's noose.

FFS kling, give it a rest!

FTA69

space_man wrote: »

i visit London on a regular basis, and the athmosphere in many of these areas is apalling & unfriendly.

Like where?

inforfun

wes wrote: »

There is very little evidence that capital punishment is any kind of deterrent, especially when its comes to terrorism. A lot of these guys are willing to die for there cause.

It is probably the only regret these killers have, that they weren't killed.
Martyrdom and all that.

Only "good" thing that happened yesterday is that they were caught alive.

wp_rathead

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

FFS kling, give it a rest!

I dunno, I think he talking the most sense around here

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

But a distinction also needs to be made when people say "Muslims do x and y" as if all people of that faith are the same or that Islam itself is automatically predisposed to violence. The fact is that just isn't the case but many are pretending it does. You can see that in this thread and people I thought were sane are now on Facebook banging the "send them home" drum.

There are just as many people pretending it has nothing to do with multiculturalism and saying 'things things happen everywhere' and that attitude isn't helpful either.

kling

FTA69 wrote: »

Like where?

Fantasyton, Fakney, and Imaginationville. You know - those Lahndon ghettos.

kling

kling wrote: »

Fantasyton, Fakney, and Imaginationville. You know - those Lahndon ghettos.

What part of London do you live in?

space_man

Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »

What part of London do you live in?

La La ington.:D
Bleeding Heart Hill:D

FTA69

It's a fair question like. Whitechapel, Bethnal Green and Brick Lane are popular enough spots for market shopping, night life and food. Places like Newham etc are sh*tholes because they're dog-poor. We have that problem in Ireland too with very little immigration involved.

enda1

FTA69 wrote: »

Like where?

To be fair there are a number of areas in London with a dodgy atmosphere. Even in central London, places like Walworth for example.

It's funny in Dublin there are similar places with horrible atmospheres but they are generally in indigenous Irish communities (e.g. Summerhill).

The difference being because in one case (London) people react xenophobically, and in the other (Dublin) people just treat teh criminals for what they are - criminal.

The thing is, these are societal issues and are not so simple as "they is black/Muslim!"

kling

Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »

What part of London do you live in?

I've lived mostly in the East-end. About as 'multicultural' as you get - has been for hundreds of years. Atmosphere never bothered me.

FTA69

Nobody is denying that there are rough as guts areas in London. They aren't dodgy because of Muslims though, that's the point I'm making.

Meritocracy Wins

Al_Coholic wrote: »

full kit racist wanker

This is what happens when their football is taken away.

K.Flyer

Stinicker wrote: »

The police who didn't shoot to kill in this instance should be sacked, these guys brains should have been blown out by the police the minute they rocked up.

In this instance they would have deliberately shot them to take them alive.
They need to question them to find out if they are part of a larger group, a small cell or just two f#@kin' nut jobs who need putting away for the rest of their natural life.
To have killed them would have made them martyrs in the eyes of some people and they do not need nor want to do that.

Nodin

deandean wrote: »

Barbaric.

That'll be the streets of Clongriffen in a couple of years.

Bollocks.

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote:

The open door policy of Labour really worked out for the best

space man wrote:

parts of England & London in particular have been destroyed by unfettered
immigration.
people especially the PC bleeding heart variety prefer not to
accept this.

At least one of the attackers was born in Britain.

space man wrote:

if your average white Briton could turn the clock back to where we are
now in terms of immigration,

So it isn't "settled Briton" or "integrated Briton" or "average British citizen" its "average white Briton"....

Sept 23 1989 wrote:

The west has to fight this "war" with one hand tied behind its back

And that means what, might I ask?

Nodin

Meritocracy Wins wrote: »

This is what happens when their football is taken away.

They were told what would happen if they didn't come in in time for dinner, so its their own fault.

Specialun

This might already have been answered and If so I apologise but:

Did these goons go out to kill a soldier or was it just a coincidence that the person they killed was one?

Piliger

Stinicker wrote: »

The reason things like this happen is because of that sort of politically correct attitude.

You are seriously deluded. These cowards are aching to die and get their 25 virgins.

The fact that those policemen didn't allow them to be killed is a major major coup and they should be given medals. Now they will hopefully kept alive, sentenced and left to rot in jail for 40 years.

opinionated3

Nodin wrote: »

Bollocks.





At least one of the attackers was born in Britain


So it isn't "settled Briton" or "integrated Briton" or "average British citizen" its "average white Briton"....



And that means what, might I ask?

I would imagine it means that there are too many fake do gooders here and around the world who somehow see these extremists as humans who should be tolerated as such. there is no defending this nodin, war or no war. death penaltyshould be brought back for these bastards. now that definitely would be an eye for an eye...

Nodin

opinionated3 wrote: »

I would imagine it means that there are too many fake do gooders here and around the world who somehow see these extremists as humans who should be tolerated as such. there is no defending this nodin, war or no war. death penaltyshould be brought back for these bastards. now that definitely would be an eye for an eye...

....as it appears they were trying to become 'martyrs', I'm not seeing how it would make any difference.

dundalkfc10

Piliger wrote: »

You are seriously deluded. These cowards are aching to die and get their 25 virgins.

The fact that those policemen didn't allow them to be killed is a major major coup and they should be given medals. Now they will hopefully kept alive, sentenced and left to rot in jail for 40 years.

Rot in jail? Thats a tad extreme considering one of them would only be 68 then, plenty of years left in him if he looks after himself

Hoop66

Stinicker wrote: »

The police who didn't shoot to kill in this instance should be sacked, these guys brains should have been blown out by the police the minute they rocked up.

GRRRRR! GRRRRRR!

This post shows all the hallmarks of blood-crazed stupidity, more concerned with revenge than justice.

inb4 "but what about the guy that was killed, where's his justice?" - he's dead. Sadly, his chance for justice has passed, but at least his killers will face a fair trial (hallmark of a free and decent society) and hopefully provide some usefule intelligence as to why they did what they did.

Gatling

Timmyctc wrote: »

I felt bad you couldn't continue your agenda v multiculturalism so I'll bite. How so? Maybe I've missed out but incidents like this must be a regular occurance yeah?

What are you spouting about exactly
Multiculturalism in the uk has worked for the most part

opinionated3

Nodin wrote: »

....as it appears they were trying to become 'martyrs', I'm not seeing how it would make any difference.

fair point nodin. I suppose they are so desperate to meet their maker. just as well we have marines, airforces and drones etc to help arrange that for them...

laoch na mona

opinionated3 wrote: »

I would imagine it means that there are too many fake do gooders here and around the world who somehow see these extremists as humans who should be tolerated as such. there is no defending this nodin, war or no war. death penaltyshould be brought back for these bastards. now that definitely would be an eye for an eye...

they are human just sick humans no one should ever face the death penalty it only serves to satisfy a base desire for revenge and make martyrs

kling

opinionated3 wrote: »

fair point nodin. I suppose they are so desperate to meet their maker. just as well we have marines, airforces and drones etc to help arrange that for them...

Not too many of those floating about south London.

It's also worth pointing out that the western military campaign in Afghanistan is pretty much defunct at this stage - the Taliban are winning - despite all the high-tech hardware and rhetoric about freedom. These 'jihadis' really didn't have to anything but sit tight and play the waiting game.

MonaPizza

Piliger wrote: »

He had been decapitated.
I believe these bystanders were confused and in a state of shock. Some thought that these men had been helping the man after being hit by the car ... others I imagine were just in shock because they were seeing something that simply did not 'compute' on a normal street in London. I don't blame them.

But HAD he been decapitated? The message quickly went out that he had been decapitated, i.e. had his head chopped off. After the attack that cub-scout woman went to check him for a pulse. You can also clearly see a policewoman kneeling down beside him trying to figure out his condition.

Surely if someone has been decapitated one isn't going to check for a pulse. A cop is hardly going to tend to a headless corpse. You cover the corpse with a sheet and begin your investigation.

So who claimed he was decapitated? If he wasn't .... and it seems he wasn't then who spread that rumour?

And before anyone tries to throw in their "maybe this, maybe that" like maybe his head was only partly chopped off and you can still have a pulse with all your carotid arteries hacked open, either one is decapitated or they aren't. Also there was a remarkable small amount of blood on that guy. His hands were bloodstained, sure, but if you cut someone's head off blood sprays everywhere. Even if you slit someone's throat then blood gushes out and forms a massive pool around the body. I know this. I've witnessed someone being murdered by having their throat cut and a pool of blood the size of a dustbin lid formed around the dead man's body.

(incidentally for those of you asking why nobody in the street was doing anything.....I can speak for them...I froze too)

I just can't help but think that this whole decapitation thing was cynically mentioned to accentuate the horror and the fear.

MonaPizza

Jonny7 wrote: »

Sadly, people don't have to be insane or "crazy" to carry out these types of attacks.. just very brainwashed or very (religiously) radicalised

I've read transcripts of pamphlets that were in posession of the 911 hijackers before their attacks - very indoctrinating stuff.. victims are just sheep, who are just having their lives shortened for a much more powerful religious cause, the hijackers own lives are mundane and meaningless, this would give their deaths a religious purpose and so on.

I don't know what drove these guys, but two fairly "nice and relatively normal" brothers blew up people in the US recently, radicalisation within small peer groups, religious groups, online is possible (as shown by the 7/7 bombers and the July 21 failed bombers)

Seems the guys who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 weren't devout muslims at all. Weren't they habitual drinkers, smokers, drug takers, etc. Didn't one live with a stripper? Hardly devout muslims.

https://twitter.com/BOYADEE

Eyewitness account not long after if all happened. Must say, his grammar has improved immensely today. So has his followers, he only had a hundred odd this time yesterday

kling

MonaPizza wrote: »

But HAD he been decapitated?

... I just can't help but think that this whole decapitation thing was cynically mentioned to accentuate the horror and the fear.

Eyewitnesses (or at least one of the eyewitnesses) said they tried to decapitate him. It's not so clear that they succeeded.

opinionated3

laoch na mona wrote: »

they are human just sick humans no one should ever face the death penalty it only serves to satisfy a base desire for revenge and make martyrs

sick humans we try to cure. murdering extremist bastards we should waste....

NIMAN

Not sure if this has been posted before, but this sort of sums up the EDL.;)

Poster warning: Watching this clip may lower your IQ permanently.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Would you be saying the same thing if one of the Irish soldiers who post on here was beheaded outside the Curragh?

If the Irish army was engaged in aggressive imperialism then yes, I would be saying the same.

Gatling

Happyman42 wrote: »

If the Irish army was engaged in aggressive imperialism then yes, I would be saying the same.

Aren't we lucky we conquered america without firing a shot in anger

MonaPizza

pablomakaveli wrote: »

When did British soldiers go around deliberately killing Iraqis civilians?

Well there is Baha Mousa

Also the sexual abuse of kids in afghanistan:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9023214/Hamid-Karzai-condemns-alleged-Afghan-child-abuse-by-British-soldiers.html

Now considering that the US soldiers pretty much have the monopoly on killing and torturing civilians it would be easy to try and distance yourself from their sadism and brutality. Some people don't see it that way however. They see UK troops as complicit in the horrors visited upon the people of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US and to an extent they are right.

Gatling

MonaPizza wrote: »

Well there is Baha Mousa

Also the sexual abuse of kids in afghanistan:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9023214/Hamid-Karzai-condemns-alleged-Afghan-child-abuse-by-British-soldiers.html

Now considering that the US soldiers pretty much have the monopoly on killing and torturing civilians it would be easy to try and distance yourself from their sadism and brutality. Some people don't see it that way however. They see UK troops as complicit in the horrors visited upon the people of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US and to an extent they are right.

Alleged sex abuse -
Now that coming from a man who's top Commander's are active pedophiles karzi is a hypocrite

laoch na mona

opinionated3 wrote: »

sick humans we try to cure. murdering extremist bastards we should waste....

okay so you would be in favor of executing this man? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8933193/British-soldier-jailed-for-stabbing-10-year-old-Afghan-boy.html or the idiots who attacked mosque's yesterday. or is it only Muslim extremists you view as a problem

NIMAN wrote: »

Not sure if this has been posted before, but this sort of sums up the EDL.;)

Poster warning: Watching this clip may lower your IQ permanently.

you have caused me permanent brain damage :P

Manic Moran

Seachmall wrote: »

MM's service doesn't make him infallible on the matter.

Whether or not an off duty soldier is a legitimate target is entirely opinion.

Perhaps, but given the common practice, I think the legal opinion has been determined. We (combatant militaries) routinely kill un-uniformed enemy personnel who are not actively engaged in operations against us at the time. What's important is that we have identified them as enemy personnel and we can get at them.

The question on whether or not we should (eg strikes into Pakistan) is a political one, more than a legal one, and not my purview.

If he runs the chow hall is irrelevant. There is no non-combatant exception for chow hall operator. If he were a chaplain or a doctor may not be irrelevant. Targets are legitimate or not. Innocence has little to do with it. Most soliders don't have much say as to how they ended up in any particular conflict. Doesn't mean they should be considered as protected.

But it still remains that MM has no idea how "innocent" this man was.

This is true. It is also why I prefaced my statement with "if". Though it seems that the man's employer has since been confirmed, so the 'if' seems no longer relevant. (Barring aforementioned exceptions)

Every year we in the US military have to take an "awareness of threat" class, pointing out that we can be targeted for simply being in the military. Some of it is useful information, some goes a little overboard (What floor to get a hotel room on, don't have military bumper stickers on your car etc). I simply point out that it should not be particularly shocking if the somewhat nebulous enemy (an ideal, more than a group) we have identified as the target for our military strikes back against that military. I do not say that any policies the governments have taken are wrong, just that denying these end results is something of putting one's head in the sand.

The study by Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law calls for a re-evaluation of the practice, saying the number of "high-level" targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low -- about 2%.

They're getting a 1 significant kill to 49 collateral kills rate according to a US study out of Stanford

From the article:
"TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562 - 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474 - 881 were civilians"

If you take the medians, that's about 2,900 killed, 650 of whom were civilians. Presumably the rest were combatants, making 2,250 combatants killed. That's not a particularly low percentage, absent other information such as how many civilians were known to be present at the time, or accessibility of the target by less destructive means. Again, whether it's worth the political cost for a 'significant' kill is another question, but that doesn't necessarily make the strikes unlawful.

NTM

MonaPizza

colossus-x wrote: »

. Certainly looked like they had some 'political goal' from watching the rant.

They intimidated the public ( clearly ) . There was certainly violence against civilians - the civilian victim is dead. There is no evidence that the fundamentalists knew this guy was a soldier.

Again you're just twisting the facts to suit your view. You can't have it both ways though.
What separates this act of violence from any other act of violence where onlookers are shocked and traumatised.
If you're going to define terrorism then you'd better make it clear.
Was this a civilian or not and how do you know whether they knew he was a soldier or not. They seemed to clearly target one guy. That level of fixation on one victim certainly would suggest that they knew something about the guy. He was also wearing a Help for Heroes t-shirt apparently.

This terrorism label is being used to polarise the public and justify the governments resource wars against Middle East countries. Simple as that. If a psycho goes into a school and chops up a bunch of kids in a fit of rage he's never accused of terrorism.

I'm sick of this terrorism term and I don't subscribe to it. It's meaningless. There's no such thing as terrorism, just action and reaction, just cause and effect, truth and lies.