London - Suspected Terrorist Incident

MonaPizza

Overheal wrote: »

Yeah, because they never shut London do- oh wait.At least! Just wake up about the insulated views to personal defense weapons. Thats all I'm saying.

here:

Had plenty of time to understand it was a butchering, and yes, even the normally unarmed police force, while they took an obscenely long time to arrive, came armed. And the psychos hung out while people filmed them. o_O

They'd have been shot, yes, in America, long before they would have ever been allowed to make themselves an internet sensation

Typical post-event rant by someone who is terrified of everything and spends half his life seeking to blame someone or something and the other half predicting the future.

briany

laoch na mona wrote: »

okay so you would be in favor of executing this man? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8933193/British-soldier-jailed-for-stabbing-10-year-old-Afghan-boy.html or the idiots who attacked mosque's yesterday. or is it only Muslim extremists you view as a problem


you have caused me permanent brain damage :P

I've seen that clip and, yes, idiocy abounds. However, this latest incident has sparked a precedent and it's a dangerous one because if this kind of incident inspires copycats and, perhaps crucially, fuels the media thread ever more, it's going to reach a critical point for the ordinary person where the EDL and the BNP and even UKIP, in order of extremism, don't seem like the worst option. If more educated and respectable former moderates start joining up then the outcome could be quite ugly indeed.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

If the Irish army was engaged in aggressive imperialism then yes, I would be saying the same.

is ISAF aggressive imperialism then?

MonaPizza

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't care what anyone calls them, beyond my personal preference that they use correct terminology. Politicians rarely get it right in any other subject, why should military operations be any different?

I have legitimate targets to engage, or I do not. The word "terrorist" is not found under the definition of "combatant" or "non-combatant" in the laws of land warfare, no matter what the politicians say. (It may, however, be found as a distinguisher between 'lawful combatant' and 'unlawful combatant')

NTM

And you yourself are a legitimate target by anyone in whose country you are occupying.

MajorMax

I've given this some thought.

In my opinion, I think the only way to deter domestic islamic terrorism in the Uk or even America is to make it clear that if you commit a terrorism act involving loss of life, you will be imprisioned for the rest of your life, your entire family will be deported to whatever country your ancestors came from even if they left generations ago and when you eventually die in a supermax prison you will be burried in pieces in a pigskin to ensure that you won't go to 300 virgins in the afterlife.

Pretty harsh, but i can't see any other way to proceed

Fratton Fred

MajorMax wrote: »

I've given this some thought.

In my opinion, I think the only way to deter domestic islamic terrorism in the Uk or even America is to make it clear that if you commit a terrorism act involving loss of life, you will be imprisioned for the rest of your life, your entire family will be deported to whatever country your ancestors came from even if they left generations ago and when you eventually die in a supermax prison you will be burried in pieces in a pigskin to ensure that you won't go to 300 virgins in the afterlife.

Pretty harsh, but i can't see any other way to proceed

Israeli style deterents don't appear to work there, so why in the UK?

mattjack

MajorMax wrote: »

I've given this some thought.

In my opinion, I think the only way to deter domestic islamic terrorism in the Uk or even America is to make it clear that if you commit a terrorism act involving loss of life, you will be imprisioned for the rest of your life, your entire family will be deported to whatever country your ancestors came from even if they left generations ago and when you eventually die in a supermax prison you will be burried in pieces in a pigskin to ensure that you won't go to 300 virgins in the afterlife.

Pretty harsh, but i can't see any other way to proceed

Supposing you and your family are originally from the UK , you convert to Islam , commit an act of terrorism in the UK ... where should your family be deported to ?

Blisterman

Does anyone else hate the term multiculturism? It's such an unspecfic word, which depending on the point being made, means everything from a country where cultures assimilate and mix to one where they are segregated and completely seperate.

Manic Moran

MonaPizza wrote: »

And you yourself are a legitimate target by anyone in whose country you are occupying.

Correct.

Though preferably by lawful combatants, as opposed to unlawful ones.

Hoop66

Blisterman wrote: »

Does anyone else hate the term multiculturism? It's such an unspecfic word, which depending on the point being made, means everything from a country where cultures assimilate and mix to one where they are segregated and completely seperate.

Only because it is misused.

Multiculturalism means that all cultures in a country, both the indigenous ones and those brought by more recent immigrants, co-exist. It means that incoming cultures are not absorbed into the existing culture, but are allowed to exist alongside it.

Horrific thought, I know. All those people, doing things.

fishy fishy

NIMAN wrote: »

Not sure if this has been posted before, but this sort of sums up the EDL.;)

Poster warning: Watching this clip may lower your IQ permanently.

is that what people on here recognize as the "true" brits then. gawd help us all. :pac::pac::pac:

Pug160

He claims he was doing it on behalf of Muslims who have suffered at the hands of the British Government's foreign policy. But he has presumably had a much better life living in Britain than he would have had living wherever his parents came from. It seems as though the two men are just primitive and sympathise with the promoters of radical Islam. It's a kick in the teeth that people like that can be home grown but when floodgates are let open there are going to be people like this simply because of the sheer size of the population.

Nino Brown

MonaPizza wrote: »

. If a psycho goes into a school and chops up a bunch of kids in a fit of rage he's never accused of terrorism.

Seriously? If he goes into a school shouting Allahu Akhbar, ranting about the middle East, and it turns out he has affiliations with radicaln muslim clerics, I'm pretty sure people would call him a terrorist.

biko

NIMAN wrote: »

Not sure if this has been posted before, but this sort of sums up the EDL.;)

Yeah they really managed to find a gem there

Tbh, you can always find extremists if you look hard enough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRNy4MISkg

Maybe Tommy Robinson EDL getting punched will warm someone's heart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E93vxwtoGwY

Nodin

opinionated3 wrote: »

fair point nodin. I suppose they are so desperate to meet their maker. just as well we have marines, airforces and drones etc to help arrange that for them...

"we" do? News to me.

Pug160

Pug160 wrote: »

He claims he was doing it on behalf of Muslims who have suffered at the hands of the British Government's foreign policy. But he has presumably had a much better life living in Britain than he would have had living wherever his parents came from. It seems as though the two men are just primitive and sympathise with the promoters of radical Islam. It's a kick in the teeth that people like that can be home grown but when floodgates are let open there are going to be people like this simply because of the sheer size of the population.

To me it looks like two nutjobs who didn't fit into society for whatever reason, turned to Islam and are now using their new-found religion as an excuse to be barbaric thugs.

Pug160

Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »

To me it looks like two nutjobs who didn't fit into society for whatever reason, turned to Islam and are now using their new-found religion as an excuse to be barbaric thugs.

Yeah but the problem is that there's probably a lot more of them out there, possibly plotting something much bigger. They are clearly ''nutjobs'' but if they were inspired by radical Islam that's still an issue that needs to be addressed. Just labeling them nutjobs and nothing else sort of brushes things under the carpet.

biko

Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »

To me it looks like two nutjobs who didn't fit into society for whatever reason, turned to Islam and are now using their new-found religion as an excuse to be barbaric thugs.

Even though I understand and to some point agree with this, there has just been too many "incidents" similar to this one over the years for it to be a good only reason.
Most recently the Toulouse shootings and the Boston bombings.

Also, would they have done the same if say they were fanatic Christians or Jews? Possibly but not likely.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

is ISAF aggressive imperialism then?

Yes, in the eyes of some, notably those involved yesterday.

Pug160

Pug160 wrote: »

Yeah but the problem is that there's probably a lot more of them out there, possibly plotting something much bigger. They are clearly ''nutjobs'' but if they were inspired by radical Islam that's still an issue that needs to be addressed. Just labeling them nutjobs and nothing else sort of brushes things under the carpet.

Of course there are, but it's also not as simple as 'stop letting all those Muslims in'. I do most definitely support immigration restrictions and the deportation of foreigners who commit crimes and have no doubt that people with evil intentions are still coming to the UK from abroad, but some of the most dangerous radical Muslims are converts, like these men were. They don't grow up with an understanding of Islam, they latch onto a cause to give their life some meaning. The main problem as far as the UK is concerned, IMO, is people feeling marginalised in the first place.

Toby Take a Bow

biko wrote: »

Also, would they have done the same if say they were fanatic Christians or Jews? Possibly but not likely.

I don't think it's really comparing like with like. You will find examples of "Christian terrorism" (and "Jewish terrorism") where a small percentage of Christians (or Jews) see themselves as being the minority and/or oppressed and without the means to wage what we would consider a 'proper' war.

Pug160

Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »

Of course there are, but it's also not as simple as 'stop letting all those Muslims in'. I do most definitely support immigration restrictions and the deportation of foreigners who commit crimes and have no doubt that people with evil intentions are still coming to the UK from abroad, but some of the most dangerous radical Muslims are converts, like these men were. They don't grow up with an understanding of Islam, they latch onto a cause to give their life some meaning. The main problem as far as the UK is concerned, IMO, is people feeling marginalised in the first place.

I never said it was. But undesirables shouldn't be let in to spread their ideology to anyone else. I think immigration is actually healthy but in many cases it was complete overkill and with population numbers so high the amount of nutjobs is logically going to increase anyway, as well as the amount of people slipping through the net.

Victim named as 25 yr old Lee Rigby. RIP

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/woolwich-latest-developments-live?commentpage=1#block-519e3f7fe4b0e39288861516

Norwesterner

MonaPizza wrote: »

Again you're just twisting the facts to suit your view. You can't have it both ways though.
What separates this act of violence from any other act of violence where onlookers are shocked and traumatised.
If you're going to define terrorism then you'd better make it clear.
Was this a civilian or not and how do you know whether they knew he was a soldier or not. They seemed to clearly target one guy. That level of fixation on one victim certainly would suggest that they knew something about the guy. He was also wearing a Help for Heroes t-shirt apparently.

This terrorism label is being used to polarise the public and justify the governments resource wars against Middle East countries. Simple as that. If a psycho goes into a school and chops up a bunch of kids in a fit of rage he's never accused of terrorism.

I'm sick of this terrorism term and I don't subscribe to it. It's meaningless. There's no such thing as terrorism, just action and reaction, just cause and effect, truth and lies.

One of two was previously seen outside Mosques calling on Muslims to join the terror campaign in Syria.
Had he been an Irishman calling for people to join the IRA he'd have been jailed by the British.
But as the British work on a "Good terrorist. Bad terrorist" mindset, they gave him space.
They even consider arming these "Good terrorists".
This time however the chickens came home to roost.
Cameron and Hague should be chased from this young mans funeral.

o1s1n

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Victim named as 25 yr old Lee Rigby. RIP

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/woolwich-latest-developments-live?commentpage=1#block-519e3f7fe4b0e39288861516

Crazy to think the poor chap survived tours of Afghanistan and then got hacked to death in London.

.jacksparrow.

o1s1n wrote: »

Crazy to think the poor chap survived tours of Afghanistan and then got hacked to death in London.

Tours of Afghanistan, sounds like a school adventure!

Piliger

Norwesterner wrote: »

One of two was previously seen outside Mosques calling on Muslims to join the terror campaign in Syria.
Had he been an Irishman calling for people to join the IRA he'd have been jailed by the British.
But as the British work on a "Good terrorist. Bad terrorist" mindset, they gave him space.
They even consider arming these "Good terrorists".
This time however the chickens came home to roost.
Cameron and Hague should be chased from this young mans funeral.

I find this hate filled post sickening.

Piliger

o1s1n wrote: »

Crazy to think the poor chap survived tours of Afghanistan and then got hacked to death in London.

Looks like a fine young man. A fine soldier and a hero.
They should change the law and allow all members of the forces carry hand weapons when they are off duty. It's crazy that they are trusted to be armed abroad and not in their own street where they can defend themselves.

Amirani

Piliger wrote: »

Looks like a fine young man. A fine soldier and a hero.
They should change the law and allow all members of the forces carry hand weapons when they are off duty. It's crazy that they are trusted to be armed abroad and not in their own street where they can defend themselves.

I don't find that crazy in the slightest. Particularly when you consider that between 3% and 10% of the British prison population are ex-military. Military is the most common former profession in UK prisons.

More here: http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/criminology/research/current-projects/jt146soldiers

RGDATA!

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Funny how this was 'an act of terrorism'

but when a white man hacks a 75 year old Pakistani man to death it hardly gets a peep in the news. Cameron didn't fly home for this, nor was Cobra called into action.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police



But sure, yea, it's not like the UK media ever over react to anything.

i know where you're coming from and had read that story. however, it's not been shown for definite that the killer was a white man or that it was racially motivated. it makes a convenient counter-argument on a day like today, but the facts are not all in. the contrast is striking though.

Means Of Escape

This brutality is a way of life in some areas Nigeria and its likely that the perpetrators would be slow to commit a similar act of barbarism in their home country unless affiliated with a large strong group as they would be butchered by others in the same merciless way.
Not surprised that humans can stoop so low considering people get burned alive for being suspected 'witches' in the same country and others on that continent.

Cody Pomeray

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Funny how this was 'an act of terrorism'

but when a white man hacks a 75 year old Pakistani man to death it hardly gets a peep in the news. Cameron didn't fly home for this, nor was Cobra called into action.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police

Of course, because there was considered to be no danger of systemic copycat attacks.

We have already seen systemic incidents of terrorism involving fundamentalists of all hues and creeds (including Irish Catholics btw) and these require specific policy attention because of the extra dangers they present.

Piliger

NiallSparky wrote: »

I don't find that crazy in the slightest. Particularly when you consider that between 3% and 10% of the British prison population are ex-military. Military is the most common former profession in UK prisons.

More here: http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/criminology/research/current-projects/jt146soldiers

Except I didn't refer to former military.

Nodin

me bolly wrote: »

This brutality is a way of life in some areas Nigeria and its likely that the perpetrators would be slow to commit a similar act of barbarism in their home country unless affiliated with a large strong group as they would be butchered by others in the same merciless way.
Not surprised that humans can stoop so low considering people get burned alive for being suspected 'witches' in the same country and others on that continent.

The Nigerian thats been identified was born and bred in Britain.

Norwesterner

Piliger wrote: »

I find this hate filled post sickening.

Hate for whom exactly?
islamic head-hackers and their financial backers?
What are you drinking?

Alfred123

i think we should arm Everybody. And sort this thing out for once and all. Then we can all defend ourselves from whatever ..

Cungi

Alfred123 wrote: »

i think we should arm Everybody. And sort this thing out for once and all. Then we can all defend ourselves from whatever ..

Is that sarcasm?

Alf Garnet, is that you?

Two Tone from Limehouse

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Source: Metropolitan Police, BBC, ITN, Sky, etc

An incident in South East London this afternoon where a man was run over and then beheaded by the two men in the vehicle. The two guys then went for the armed response unit and were shot.

I have been following this for a couple of hours as I am from South East London but now, they are saying it may be a terrorist incident. The dead man apparently was wearing a help the heroes T-shirt and is a soldier at the nearby army barracks.

Witnesses say that the attackers asked people on the street to take their pictures as they waited for police to arrive. Then they tried to attack the police.

Choudry on Ch4 now....lock him up

Super-Rush

EDF Energy has been bombarded with tweets because they were apparently holding racist protests last night in Woolwich.

I am pie

Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »

Choudry on Ch4 now....lock him up

why?

Means Of Escape

Nodin wrote: »

The Nigerian thats been identified was born and bred in Britain.

Even more worrying

kirb42

Nodin wrote: »

The Nigerian thats been identified was born and bred in Britain.

Nodin... If you care to listen to the young man in question, The knife wielding, miss understood guy... in the video of the aftermath his speaks of, and I quote (I apologise that women had to witness this today,but in our lands, our women have to see the same) Home thoughts from abroad maybe....

Super-Rush

Super-Rush wrote: »

EDF Energy has been bombarded with tweets because they were apparently holding racist protests last night in Woolwich.

The social media team at EDF energy had to work for their money today. People tweeting them threatening to change their providers. I think the publicity will work in their favour though.

Alfred123

Cungi wrote: »

Is that sarcasm?

Yah, that's right ! go ahead - use the sarcasm card on me ..

ballsymchugh

I am pie wrote: »

why?

if you saw him, you'd wonder why he was given a box to spout from.

Cungi

Alfred123 wrote: »

Yah, that's right ! go ahead - use the sarcasm card on me ..

Oh ok, you're trolling then?

LorMal

Piliger wrote: »

I find this hate filled post sickening.

I agree. Shocking bitter nonsense

Two Tone from Limehouse

Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »

Choudry on Ch4 now....lock him up

I just missed it on +1. Did he denounce yesterdays murder? Should I start holding my breath now?

Rascasse

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I just missed it on +1. Did he denounce yesterdays murder? Should I start holding my breath now?

He's on Newsnight tonight too. No idea why the BBC would give someone like him a platform.