primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

wherswally

MistyCheese wrote: »

The irony of one worker referring to the toddlers as "little bullies" as she manhandles vulnerable infants who are too young to even report mistreatment to anyone.

And the image of that child being flung onto a mat on the floor will stay with me for a while.

I cant be sure but the one who mentioned that the children were bullies (don't think she meant anything by it, because her tone and actions were far more gentle than the other girl)
was not the same girl who was putting children down on the mat roughly. They had different accents so i think rte just added that part in to make the second girl look even worse.

Sparks

Calhoun wrote: »

They really need to evaluate the whole model, I think pumping money into training for private run establishments while parents are paying upward to a grand a month is wrong .

We don't pay a grand a month to the HSE inspection teams.
Who's saying we need to put more money into the creches?

wherswally

fisher8181 wrote: »

They have not been fired, just suspended!!

After what has been shown on primetime there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the worst culprits will never work a day in any creche again.

If giraffe and links don't decide on that themselves, the parents will most definitely make sure of that.

Sure could you imagine one of those parents recognizing the worker's voice? They would skin the girls alive if they had the audacity to set foot in that place again!

Sparks

fisher8181 wrote: »

They have not been fired, just suspended!!

One fired, three suspended from Links; two suspended from Giraffe.

Sparks

wherswally wrote: »

Sure could you imagine one of those parents recognizing the worker's voice? They would skin the girls alive if they had the audacity to set foot in that place again!

Voice? Giraffe identified the girls by name to parents in Belarmine and showed photos of them to anyone who asked, you wouldn't have to recognise voices.

nesf

Calhoun wrote: »

They really need to evaluate the whole model, I think pumping money into training for private run establishments while parents are paying upward to a grand a month is wrong .

However there needs to be a proper debate on what to do with the whole sector .

As I said earlier, it simply cannot work the way it is presently done. Parents cannot reasonably pay enough to make it feasible to pay good wages to childcare workers due to the ratios required for young children. We can pay relatively speaking high wages to primary school teachers because our "supposed" ratio is 29 students per teacher (this is broken often). If we turned around and said 10 students per teacher maximum at Primary Level we would have severely slash teacher pay in order to get it done without tax increases. Actually with our current fiscal situation we can't even do 29 at the moment.

Calhoun

Sparks wrote: »

We don't pay a grand a month to the HSE inspection teams.
Who's saying we need to put more money into the creches?

I said training not inspectors, I was quoting nesf and assumed training was directed at staff members . Anything else I need to answer ?

Calhoun

nesf wrote: »

As I said earlier, it simply cannot work the way it is presently done. Parents cannot reasonably pay enough to make it feasible to pay good wages to childcare workers due to the ratios required for young children. We can pay relatively speaking high wages to primary school teachers because our "supposed" ratio is 29 students per teacher (this is broken often). If we turned around and said 10 students per teacher maximum at Primary Level we would have severely slash teacher pay in order to get it done without tax increases. Actually with our current fiscal situation we can't even do 29 at the moment.

I agree with what your saying and would be an advocate for a system like in some Central European countries but baby steps first we need to have a dialogue on what kind of care we want our youngest to have .

wherswally

Sparks wrote: »

Voice? Giraffe identified the girls by name to parents in Belarmine and showed photos of them to anyone who asked, you wouldn't have to recognise voices.

Exactly, that only further proves my point that the creches and parents will definitely not let those girls back in.

ted1

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Apologies for the delay in posting.

Watched the clip yesterday morning at RTE (believe there were a few groups seeing it, think there was 8 of us).

There's no denying some of the footage was upsetting, in a nutshell it consisted of the following:

Strapping of children in chairs for long periods of time (up to 2 hours across a day)
Turning a child in a chair towards a fridge/wall as some sort of punishment
Pushing a child's head down into a mattress when they were not wanting to go to sleep
Fabrication of a child's daily book (time slept etc)
Register of allergies not updated in the kitchen

To be honest don't think the story is particularly balanced, for all the above except the last point it makes no mention that this unacceptable behaviour came from one staff member in one room. It also doesn't say how many days the footage was taken from over the six month period RTE were undercover for.

Regarding the last point, it is bad that the allergy list is not updated in the kitchen but in fairness each child has their own laminated placemat with this information on it.

Clearly some of the other parents in the room after we viewed it were upset, some had already taken their child out.

On a personal note, have no intention of removing our child. As I say it was one staff member in one room, that staff member could be working in any creche in the country (or the world for that matter). Think it is unfair all rooms/staff are essentially being tarred with the same brush. There is very little said about the good work the creche does for children.

I think if the creche implement CCTV so staff can be randomly checked to ensure they are adhering to policies etc (and presumably the staff member involved will be dismissed) then the issue should be resolved.

Can see some court cases arising from parents looking for some €€€€

Still no idea/confirmation about the screening date. We have been given an email address to send comments too and we plan to send something about the lack of balance etc.

As a patent of a three year old and a one year old I honestly can not understand how you are going to not remove your child. I would not let my child be in a situation where they could be treated as demonstrated tonight

Sparks

Calhoun wrote: »

I agree with what your saying and would be an advocate for a system like in some Central European countries but baby steps first we need to have a dialogue on what kind of care we want our youngest to have .

Baby steps is fine, but if that's step one, then step zero is to finance inspection and enforcement properly so that the existing laws are properly and fully enforced first.
Otherwise, your first step will say we need to change the law to fix things that the law already covers, but underfunded enforcement isn't preventing.

ted1

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

To be honest was expecting worse, insuring that some parents in our viewing were crying. It's an emotional topic so some people will find it really bad whilst others not so much.

The crèche said to us (before we saw it) that it was 'pretty bad'... Maybe that's why I thought it was going to be worse than it was.

If I'm honest the worst thing in the clip was the pressing of a a child's head down to try to get them to sleep.

And not your one in links throwing the kids around ?

Calhoun

Sparks wrote: »

Baby steps is fine, but if that's step one, then step zero is to finance inspection and enforcement properly so that the existing laws are properly and fully enforced first.
Otherwise, your first step will say we need to change the law to fix things that the law already covers, but underfunded enforcement isn't preventing.

I don't disagree, it's a worthwhile place to invest. What I did say I had a problem with was pumping training resources into private enterprise on an ongoing basis.

Sparks

ted1 wrote: »

As a patent of a three year old and a one year old I honestly can not understand how you are going to not remove your child. I would not let my child be in a situation where they could be treated as demonstrated tonight

If the problem is specific staff members and they've been suspended; and the HSE is investigating; and the giraffe suits are busily trying to do anything to keep parents from fleeing; and your own personal observations for months showed no problem with your child or his carers and showed an obvious positive relationship with them and a beneficial result for your child; and you have no way of knowing the problems in any alternative creche better than you know them here; then it ceases to be a saturday morning cartoon ethics lesson and becomes more complex.

Sparks

ted1 wrote: »

And not your one in links throwing the kids around ?

That was Links; sheep shagger's talking about the worst thing seen in Giraffe.

nesf

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't disagree, it's a worthwhile place to invest. What I did say I had a problem with was pumping training resources into private enterprise on an ongoing basis.

We already do it. What do you think our entire education system is from Junior Infants to walking out with a degree from Trinners.

Calhoun

nesf wrote: »

We already do it. What do you think our entire education system is from Junior Infants to walking out with a degree from Trinners.

Large for profit companies run our schools and colleges ?

Sparks

nesf wrote: »

What do you think our entire education system is from Junior Infants to walking out with a degree from Trinners.

A badly run, heavily underfinanced mess that only hangs on by its fingernails because of a few thousand committed people with more vocation than common sense?

top madra

Is there anywhere I can watch this programme, I can't find it on the RTE Player.

It seems to only have a Q and A's thing.

nesf

top madra wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can watch this programme, I can't find it on the RTE Player.

It seems to only have a Q and A's thing.

No, RTE have agree to not air it again or put it up on any streaming service like RTE player.

nesf

Calhoun wrote: »

Large for profit companies run our schools and colleges ?

No, but do you think we educate people for their own good or to make them more valuable workers? (I am being very cynical here)

Calhoun

nesf wrote: »

No, but do you think we educate people for their own good or to make them more valuable workers? (I am being very cynical here)

I know you were, however if we are to train them to higher standard would it not be better to make them all public companies or at least force private operators to have a certain degree of training ?

nesf

Calhoun wrote: »

I know you were, however if we are to train them to higher standard would it not be better to make them all public companies or at least force private operators to have a certain degree of training ?

Whether they should be public companies or not is an ideological issue. What I think we can agree on is that training standards etc need to be enforced and some way of meeting the cost of both the training and the wages of the now better qualified workers needs to be worked out.

Calhoun

nesf wrote: »

Whether they should be public companies or not is an ideological issue. What I think we can agree on is that training standards etc need to be enforced and some way of meeting the cost of both the training and the wages of the now better qualified workers needs to be worked out.

Indeed I doubt it will happen in a private realm without some serious money being spent on parents side to maintain company profits . That however is another discussion and as you said we agree on the core issues need resolving .

fisher8181

How could the minister for children possibly be "unavailable" to appear on the show?

It's one of the biggest issues since she has taken office and she s unavailable?

What the hell was she doing at 9.30pm last night that she couldn't appear on the show?

Mezcita

fisher8181 wrote: »

How could the minister for children possibly be "unavailable" to appear on the show?

It's one of the biggest issues since she has taken office and she s unavailable?

What the hell was she doing at 9.30pm last night that she couldn't appear on the show?

Because she wants time to come up with a detailed response.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0528/453221-rte-creche/

fisher8181

Mezcita wrote: »

Because she wants time to come up with a detailed response.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0528/453221-rte-creche/

She shouldn't need time to prepare a response. She should be able to field any question that relates to children no matter how tough the questions are rather than hiding away waiting for her team to prepare a detailed response for her.

pwurple

Paddy James wrote: »

We had our kids in a creche in mayo, disaster from day one.
Starved
No nap time
Constantly vomiting from crying
Left in wet nappies
Toys taken away
There own snacks we gave taken away from them
A full packet of wipes used per day that we supplied as other kids fired them around the place !
Sink was actually black was so dirty
Could go on and I genuinely have not heard of one single creche where the likes of this doesn't go on. Personally I wouldn't let our dog into a crèche as genuinely there are plenty more whistleblowers that are going to appear and this story is tip of the iceberg

I know of another in mayo where kids were left in cots most of day and another where worked would smash the toys against a wall!

What in the name of god! I wouldn't have let my child in the door of a place where the sink was dirty. Let alone the rest of it. Did you not check it out in advance? I sat in the creche myself the first week she was there to see exactly what they did. Their policy, not mine.

Picking a creche is a big job. I was in ones where they stank of either nappies or puke, ones where the sleep rooms were bright. Ones where there was no outside play area. Ones where parents were not allowed in past the door.

That programme was awful, but I have our child in a creche 3 mornings a week and I *think* and hope it's not like that. It's about one pack of wipes a month... She always had her nap when she took one in the morning, And they asked me to wait some days if she is not up from her nap yet... So I sit outside the sleep room and wait. The sleep room is a dark quiet room where a minder sits and picks them up when they wake so as not to disturb the other kids. Not that noisy bright hellhole in the primetime. She spends most of her time outside in their garden as far as I can see. she comes home with heaps of colouring, painting, flowers and leaves glued onto things. she sings songs I never taught her, knows her alphabet, can tell me her full name, address and phone number. It would not have even occured to me that a 26 month old could even learn that, especially in three short mornings a week. They send me the months 'curriculum' in advance. This has the next 4 weeks of what they are going to do with them... what nursery rhymes, songs, what they are going to do. She has allergies and has never ever had a reaction in there (the allergy hives last days, so I can tell) so she is eating the food I send in. She refuses snacks I offer in the early afternoon, so she is certainly not starved.

There are only 14 other children in the creche, and it is obvious she loves it. Runs and jumps out of my arms to get in there, gives kisses and hugs to the minders when she is leaving. She is an only child, but now she knows the other childrens names and chats to them if we meet them in the playground other days. I chose it because it was the nicest one we could find and it's a way to get to know the neighbours children as we were new to the area. I asked for the reports before I put her in, she is there nearly two years and no staff member has changed in that time.

That primetime was extremely disturbing but saying that every creche must be the same is a big leap.

Lolajay

Hmm, I watched last nights show with interest and I absolutely agree that the footage shown was disgusting, highly inappropriate and vile.

That said, I do not have children but I have 3 close friends with infants aged under 3. All of them independently made decisions not to put their children in creche's despite the inconvenience because it's pretty well known that kids are not treated well in most of them. Even if they are not being shouted at, strapped to chairs, kept in high chairs and slammed on to mattresses it is fairly accepted that the children in these places (mostly understaffed by HSE basic standards) are not given sufficient attention. If you have a child who is quiet they will most likely be ignored as something else is more urgent for the staff whose attention seems to be taken up with loud children, so, children who are struggling/crying will develop a reinforced belief that this gets them attention and quiet children will lose confidence and self esteem (over long periods of exposure to this)

As mentioned in the programme, staff cannot be blamed, these places normally have a high staff turnover, money is bad, girls are young and childcare qualifications are relatively easy to acquire. One doesn't need a leaving cert to get access to these babies during their fundamental development years.

I actually would have always assumed this stuff goes on in creches, it's horrible watching it but I've heard of so many people who wouldn't even see a creche as a last resort.

ted1

Sparks wrote: »

If the problem is specific staff members and they've been suspended; and the HSE is investigating; and the giraffe suits are busily trying to do anything to keep parents from fleeing; and your own personal observations for months showed no problem with your child or his carers and showed an obvious positive relationship with them and a beneficial result for your child; and you have no way of knowing the problems in any alternative creche better than you know them here; then it ceases to be a saturday morning cartoon ethics lesson and becomes more complex.

Management let this happen, this falls on there doorstep, they should have stop as and measures into prevent this