primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Sparks

I'd love to know what exactly the breaches were (which is why I asked for the last five years of reports from belarmine).

The head of early childhood ireland even said it during the show, though it was given fairly short coverage - there's a difference between a minor noncompliance and a major noncompliance. If the creche is noncompliant on (and I'm making this up as an example but it's not far off the mark) first aid provision, it sounds serious; but you'd want to know was that because one of the first aid kits was missing a bandage because someone used it and it hadn't been replaced before the inspection; or was it because there was no kit and nobody had first aid qualifications? The former wouldn't bother me, but it still shows up in the stats; the latter would have stopped me chosing the creche in the first place.

And you'd want to keep in mind that if the HSE inspectors find a problem that puts the children at risk, they're not allowed to leave the creche. It gets closed that day, it doesn't just keep on going.

Rose35

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

What I seen last night was child abuse, physical, emotional, physiological abuse. Both the management and the staff involved should be prosecuted. If any of that happened to my child I would be pressing charges immediately. Maybe when the sector sees that instances like this are fully dealt with and carry abuse charges and possible prison sentences then they will be less likely to occur again.

I agree totally, I am absolutely horrified, there are no excuses !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SerialComplaint

Some interesting historical views on Little Harvard can be found in this thread;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056440944

ezra_pound

tiny_penguin wrote: »

I would be worried about how RTE edit the footage if it is aired. It should be shown in its entirety to parents in the creches involved to ensure full context is seen. That is what the parents of the children involved and all with children in the creches deserve.

RTE should have handed it over to the garda and hse after the first incident was witnessed and not after 6 weeks worth of footage was gathered and put together for a TV - it is only in the past 2 days the footage has gone to the authorities and I think that is disgraceful.

Do you still stand over this comment?

tiny_penguin

ezra_pound wrote: »

Do you still stand over this comment?

The second part I do. The first part was a concern, not a statement of fact. I especially feel that the reported just sat there watching the creche worker in the links creche physically abuse children during that sleep time and at no point asked her to stop, I kow I could not watch someone do that to a child without saying something. I still dont think the footage should have been withheld from the garda or HSE for so long as who knows what else happened in there since the footage was shot.

Those comments also did not absolve the responsibility of the creches in question at all. I agree there are massive failings and the trust of parents has been breached in a terrible terrible way and nothing will change that. That does not mean I believe RTE have handled this in the best way. They claimed on the show they saw no physical abuse - there was most definitely physical abuse witnessed and shown.

Phill Ewinn

Didn't see any active management of the staff in the creches effected. This something structural with these places?

Have any creche owners posted their views online yet?

meeeeh

fisher8181 wrote: »

She shouldn't need time to prepare a response. She should be able to field any question that relates to children no matter how tough the questions are rather than hiding away waiting for her team to prepare a detailed response for her.

You mean like Alan Shatter's comments regarding the priest that was accused of rape? Gathering detailed information and getting all sides of the story is always better than some quick and possibly inaccurate comments.

A2LUE42

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Some interesting historical views on Little Harvard can be found in this thread;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056440944

SerialComplaint. This is in no way meant as a dig at you, but it is a genuine question.
Have you had issues with the Little Harvard creche at some stage?


This comment is not directed at any specific poster. There seems to be a lot of over the top praise or criticism for specific creches in the forum from posters who seem to have registered just to post about the creche. Where they have a single digit post count. It may be that a topic like this is something that gets a long time lurker to post, but it seems like people who have an undeclared vested interest are trying to skew the perception of the various creches in the Dublin region.

SerialComplaint

A2LUE42 wrote: »

SerialComplaint. This is in no way meant as a dig at you, but it is a genuine question.
Have you had issues with the Little Harvard creche at some stage?


This comment is not directed at any specific poster. There seems to be a lot of over the top praise or criticism for specific creches in the forum from posters who seem to have registered just to post about the creche. Where they have a single digit post count. It may be that a topic like this is something that gets a long time lurker to post, but it seems like people who have an undeclared vested interest are trying to skew the perception of the various creches in the Dublin region.

No offence taken from your question. My issue with LH is their use of an inappropriate entrance to their creche in Rathfarnham, resulting in parents and children parking and walking along a busy road with no pavement.

josip

hoodwinked wrote: »

the creche is quite simply there to look after the children of staff and students, ... and if it makes a loss its absorbed as its run in conjunction with other uni businesses who do turn profits, aka they make their money elsewhere and use it to fund the service that is the creche,...
it also costs far less then other 'business' creches in the local area so if it was all about the money they'd be upping what we pay.

Slightly off topic but is your University effectively subsidising the childcare costs? We pay 950 a month for our creche in South Dublin, some of whicch goes to a company's profits. How much does yours cost?

Macy0161

I didn't watch it all, as the missus was getting upset, but it beggars belief that some of the comments before it aired was that the footage wasn't that bad. My recollection is that they said the reporter did raise concerns with management and that nothing was done, which is different to what was being posted about them before the show aired and we were only getting the creches side of the story.

Dismissing it as a lack of regulation, training or whatever is one thing, but it is purely a management (and money) issue that staff ratios are not maintained, or there's not enough carers to cover all sleep areas or that there's not time to right up report sheets at the end of the day etc. That can't be written off as a few bad apples.

We are taking some (probably false) comfort from the fact the chain we sent our children to wasn't mentioned. However, the reason we left was over staff ratio's and "curriculum" not being followed. We went to a more local (but still "for profit") creche.

waynerooney

I would like to request our chosen creche's procedures documents and policies etc. to see if they are adhering to them. Am I allowed to do that legally given that my creche is a privately owned company?

Ambersky

I have experience working in child and young adult education of people aged from 3 to 21. I have worked in an excellent creche abroad in my early training and I have had experience in recent years with early years child education.
I am appalled by what I saw on Prime Time but the thoughts I have on the matter will not appeal to those who want a quick answer or solution. Sure we could hang the women we saw on the programe but in my opinion they would only be replaced by others who under the same circumstances would behave in more or less the same manner.
In this time of economic crisis the only way we seem to be able to view things is in terms associated with The Business Model.
I dont think the business model works when applied as the primary model for dealing with people or organizations who's function is the care, health or education of people of whatever age let alone infants and toddlers.
I think we are finding out the hard way how inadequate the Business model is for dealing with human beings .
When we have problems with the care provided by our organisations we seek to create solutions by applying more rules and regulations which is what businesses do.
Some of us who are trying to take a more humanitarian approach call for more incentives not just rules and are dismayed when we find those incentives also failing to create empathy and kindness.
Early child care is only developing in Ireland but we do have a history of care for children from primary school age. If we listen to some primary school teachers at the moment they seem to be talking about a declining moral and a feeling of being weighed down by paper work, targets, rules, regulations and more and more bureaucracy. Once again the Business model is being applied and the department and the general public are demanding more "productivity" with little or no mention of the work of being a human being, able to learn and to model creative, empathic, wise, kind behaviour. People might say all of that is implied or just naturally expected from those working with children especially in education. Wise moral behaviour and choices need to be modeled and reflected from the bottom of the organisation, all the way through in the way terms and conditions are applied and right up to the top of the organisation. Actually this top bottom thing could do with a bit of a reversal too and more not less importance be given to those who work hands on with the children, instead of the most important people being thought of as managers who work in offices.
Anyway thats just my way of wording the issue but here is a video from someone who puts it much much more eloquently than I ever could. If you are interested just give him a min or two to get into it.

Barry Schwartz makes a passionate call for "practical wisdom" as an antidote to a society gone mad with bureaucracy. He argues powerfully that rules often fail us, incentives often backfire, and practical, everyday wisdom will help rebuild our world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYu0kMCxFEE

grumpymunster

waynerooney wrote: »

I would like to request our chosen creche's procedures documents and policies etc. to see if they are adhering to them. Am I allowed to do that legally given that my creche is a privately owned company?

My wife is the manager of a large creche her answer to that would be if they don't and if they do not have an open door policy for parents to drop in at any time to see their child or discuss their childs development then you should follow your gut instinct.

nesf

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Some interesting historical views on Little Harvard can be found in this thread;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056440944

Just so no one thinks there is censorship going on, the above thread has been deleted until an Admin or the Community Manager can take a careful look at the posts as some are potentially problematic for the site.

Snabe

i couldn't sleep last night. everything i read up to last night was telling me that giraffe was the worst one, so i was hoping that the footage on links wouldn't be as bad as i was expecting (as that was where i had my little girl enrolled to start at the end of july - she's being minded by family at the moment). a friend told me their sister had seen the links footage in rte last weekend as her little boy was in one of the rooms affected, and that while it was bad, none of the parents had been overly upset. so i was thinking that maybe the other creches were worse.

how wrong i was. what i saw going on in the links footage absolutely horrified me. if that isn't physical and emotional abuse, i don't know what is. slamming/dragging children onto the mattresses, and that poor little girl being dragged and pushed forcefully on to the chair, and then being shouted and cursed at for putting her fingers into the bowl!! i have a terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach after seeing this last night and my head is spinning.

as for the other creches, its just despicable... what really broke my heart though was the children just sitting in the high chairs doing nothing for hours at a time. my lo is almost 1 and will not sit still in her high chair once she's finished eating. she fidgets and gives out until she's let out to explore. the fact that these children accept this treatment fills me with sadness because it must be what is normal for them, which means it has been going on for quite some time. it just breaks my heart.

and this morning i read that links are complaining to the gardai about rte. eh, get your own house in order before you start complaining about how they got the footage.
i for one don't care how they got it, im extremely happy (possibly the wrong word choice) that this has been exposed, who knows that type of environment i would have been exposing my child to otherwise.

stupidpiggy

Crumpet wrote: »

It is unfair, and really I'm getting a bit offended at reading stuff like "I'd never put my children in a creche", "all creches are the same", "if I had a child in one of those chains, I'd take him out immediately".... Yeah well, maybe things aren't that black and white! What if your childminder abuses your child? Who's going to see that? What if you and your partner need to work full time? What if you've no family here? What do you do? Seriously, what other options are there???

Me and my partner would love to have children but we are in severe negative equity so neither could afford to leave work to raise a child/children. We could afford a creche but have never contemplated that. Last night's documentary confirmed what I already believed and have thought for a long time

My sister worked in creches for a decade and changed industry altogether because she couldn't stand the way children were treated as soon as the last parent left the building. She mostly worked for privately owned independent creche's and found the big chains tended to be better equipped and had better policies in place.

I watched the documentary last night and expected it to be a lot worse given the stories I have heard.

I would rather have children when I can afford to raise them myself.

ameee

I thought the exact same thing snabe, my children at that age would have been going mad and screaming if they were stuck in a chair for even a few minutes after a meal. Those poor kids just Sat there like it was just the norm they have broken their spirits :-( .

Lolajay

Exactly, i've also heard many stories from girls working or who've previously worked in creches!

You have to laugh at the old Irish Bury the head in the sand attitude!

My child's creche wasn't featured so they must be ok.

If anything suspect is going on in a creche the parent will be the last person to know!

Anyway, it's a personal choice, if I had children it wouldn't be what I would want for them but that is just me.

wolfpawnat

We have all put the kids in the playpen or kept them in their highchair for about a half hour when doing jobs. But by Christ I never left the room and before I even considered putting my son in something like that, I made sure there was sufficient fun toys provided and I interacted with my child as I hoovered or put the laundry on the clothes rack.

I am unemployed at the moment and the one great side to it is I am able to insure my son is well looked after. We all hate when they get messy with their food, we all get annoyed, but you groan to yourself or if you get mad, you tell them that it is bold, but you don't swear or abuse them for it. And as annoyed as you get about them not eating their food, you don't ram it down their throats.

My little guy woke at 3am wanting to go to the potty and get a cup of juice, I am wrecked tired and very stressed these days and the last thing that would have entered my head would have been to slam him into his bed and scream, I just turned on the bathroom light and got him the juice, lights out and everyone back to sleep.

meeeeh

Twin Power wrote: »

Thess revelations are not surprising at all. Creches are yet another hangover from the celtic tiger - the overstretched mortgages based on two incomes leaving no one at home to raise the children properly.

'Housewives' were to be ridiculed back then, but how the wheel has come full circle.

This morning I am glad my two are in the arms of their housewife mother. I would rather live in a caravan than subject either of my children to even the slightest risk of what I saw last night.

No one will look after your child better than you. That is the harsh truth we all know, but some of us choose to avoid facing.

And I prefer to teach my children that women should have the same choice to work as men. I don't like to be stay at home mother, it doesn't suit me and I will not feel guilty because my two are part time with child minder neither would I feel guilty putting my children into the creche. We can't always protect our children. But as there are bad creches there are also bad parents and some of thhose kids might be better in the creche.

The sector needs to be inspected and regulated well. Personally I'd prefer smaller garden to the staff that treats kids well. Unfortunately it's easier to count how many chairs or toys are in the room than asses the people working there. I don't have solutions how it should be done but if the place would be closed down every time somebody without proper qualification would be found working there, I'm sure they would be a bit more careful who they employ.

pwurple

Twin Power wrote: »

Thess revelations are not surprising at all. Creches are yet another hangover from the celtic tiger - the overstretched mortgages based on two incomes leaving no one at home to raise the children properly.

'Housewives' were to be ridiculed back then, but how the wheel has come full circle.

This morning I am glad my two are in the arms of their housewife mother. I would rather live in a caravan than subject either of my children to even the slightest risk of what I saw last night.

No one will look after your child better than you. That is the harsh truth we all know, but some of us choose to avoid facing.

I was all ready to hear how you looked after your children yourself there... except you don't. :rolleyes:

Hobbitfeet

wolfpawnat wrote: »

We have all put the kids in the playpen or kept them in their highchair for about a half hour .

Really? I have never left my son strapped into a high chair or put him into a playpen. If I needed to get things done when he was smaller I put him in the sling and got on with it

vitani

Some of these posts make me so angry. Women can't win, can we? Work and we're damaging our children by sticking them in a creche. Don't work and we're either sponging off the state or dependent on our partners to provide for us.

God forbid that some of us have gone to college, got degrees and find fulfilment in a career outside the home.

Nobody criticises a man for working, whether he's a parent or not. Growing up, my dad worked 8 til 8 five days a week, plus occasional overtime on Saturday. For some years, he was working in other parts of the country, only coming home at weekends. Yet nobody would criticise him for not being there for his family. A woman has a 9 to 5 and suddenly she's neglectful and selfish, and not raising her children 'properly'.

Can we please stop judging other parents for their choices? Everyone is trying to do what's best for themselves and their families.

wolfpawnat

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Really? I have never left my son strapped into a high chair or put him into a playpen. If I needed to get things done when he was smaller I put him in the sling and got on with it

When my son was 2 I would put him in the highchair to hoover the floor around him, always with a toy. Never for more than 10 minutes, he is only human, and he is an active lad. Those ones looked hard, I didn't feel guilty because my son's one is padded.


I put him in his playpen to do laundry and the like as I didn't want to trip on him or let him get into the cabinet with the cleaning agents while I got them from under the sink to put in the washing machine. Again toys were plentiful, I never left the room and I spoke to him all the time, or sang nursery rhymes, which probably could be counted as child cruelty as I haven't a note in my head. It was never for more than a half hour and I interacted with him, pretending to be the teddy talking to him and what not, he loved it, if he cried I went over and he was old enough to stand and see me.

I had slings too and brought him around in them when he was younger again, but realistically no parent is able to stand over their child all day. You can only do your best and when you have to do something like load the dishwasher, you have to at least occupy your child, those kids in the chairs were not even given a toy between them!

ted1

vitani wrote: »

Some of these posts make me so angry. Women can't win, can we? Work and we're damaging our children by sticking them in a creche. Don't work and we're either sponging off the state or dependent on our partners to provide for us.

God forbid that some of us have gone to college, got degrees and find fulfilment in a career outside the home.

Nobody criticises a man for working, whether he's a parent or not. Growing up, my dad worked 8 til 8 five days a week, plus occasional overtime on Saturday. For some years, he was working in other parts of the country, only coming home at weekends. Yet nobody would criticise him for not being there for his family. A woman has a 9 to 5 and suddenly she's neglectful and selfish, and not raising her children 'properly'.

Can we please stop judging other parents for their choices? Everyone is trying to do what's best for themselves and their families.

Utter nonsense to be making it a sex issue.

wolfpawnat

vitani wrote: »

Nobody criticises a man for working, whether he's a parent or not. Growing up, my dad worked 8 til 8 five days a week, plus occasional overtime on Saturday. For some years, he was working in other parts of the country, only coming home at weekends. Yet nobody would criticise him for not being there for his family. A woman has a 9 to 5 and suddenly she's neglectful and selfish, and not raising her children 'properly'.

Reminds me of my MIL, I should not even consider a part-time job with the kids and my partner should HAVE to work the round of the clock, if a man is the stay-at-home parent, he is ridiculed too. I am friends with a family where he can work from home and mind the kids while she goes to a workplace 8-4 and they are both ridiculed. Every family situation is so different. Forget of course most fathers don't want to have to be away from their kids. I bet most husbands and dads were gutted to miss the big things, first steps, first day of school, hell some even miss the birth because they can't get out of work! But yet there is a large area of society that assumes women home, men work. That said, saying you're a stay-at-home mum gets a lot of dirties too!. As you said, no winning.

mariaalice

There are some children who are getting better care in a crèche or with a child minder that they would get with their parents, there are good crèche's and child minders who give very good care to children, not everyone has the choice to stay at home with their children.

gabrielIT

It is not only about gathering all informations, it all about SHOWING YOUR FACE.
I have been receiving update and letters from my creche for the last 7/8 days. are you saying that our Minister was not aware about the case up to yesterday?

private footage was already organized last week for parents affected.

our Minister could have showed up and AT LEAST show some simpathy (empathy is too big of an effort) for the parents and kids affected.

but these days is really asking too much, maybe they need to consult with Angela Merkel on the topic first

MurdyWurdy

I feel like as a woman I can't win - stay at home or go back to work, either way I'll feel guilty and be judged by other people.

My baby is due in just over 3 weeks and I'm planning on staying at home for as long as I can (and at the moment, I'm lucky to be in a position to do that) but then you get people saying I'll never get a job again because no employer wants to hire someone who has been out of the workplace for a few years with an unexplained gap in your CV and who therefore very obviously has young children. So, I do feel torn and I'm trying to be open minded about it. Perhaps when I've been at home with baby for a while I'll be dying to go back to work. We'll see.