primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Sparks

All this talk about stay-at-home moms -v- working moms is missing the point completely, which is the kids. And they are often better off in a creche. I know ours has come on in leaps and bounds since going into giraffe simply because of the larger number of kids and getting used to them and interacting with them. As much as anyone would want to, they're not going to be able to be as good for their kid in that respect as the creches could potentially be (and in most cases, seem to be).

So this whole creches-are-evil, whoops-feminism-forgot-this-bit-didn't-she-the-dozy-B, blah-blah-blah line is, I'm sure, terribly viscerally satisfying to those taking it, but it's got feck all to do with what matters here, which is the kids. (And whomever it was that said that care of children in Ireland has a good record in Ireland from primary school on, would you please hit pause, go read the ryan report and all the other reports that have come out in recent years, and re-evaluate your position?)

And all this talk about how to reform the system and make grand sweeping changes to business models and so forth - look lads, that's great, go enjoy your new project, but it doesn't do a darn thing for the parents who left their kids into giraffe in Belarmine this morning (and folks, it's not empty this morning, it's busy. I couldn't tell you if it was 5% or 10% less busy, but my kids room wasn't emptied out, it looked about as busy as it ever was on a Wednesday in there). Those parents need something more immediate, and any grand sweeping changes are going to take years - so by the time it's all fixed, our kids are out of the place and on to school (and given that this is Ireland, realistically they'll be half way to college by the time it's fixed).

What's needed - and what can be done - right now is to drop a wodge of money into the early years inspectors' budgets within the HSE. €1.5 billion for building work? FFS, pull some of that and drop it here. Fund the inspection and enforcement of the existing system, that would be up and working properly in weeks, not years. And then we can talk about how to improve it, but get the damn thing working first. If your car breaks down on the M50, you call the AA first, not the car dealership to look into buying a new car.

But honestly, and given what we all know about how things work in Ireland, if someone asked me "how would you fix the problem if you had more time and money than you do right now", I could only honestly answer that I'd pull my kid from the creche, pack my bags, move to sweden or switzerland and start hunting for jobs there because they have a working childcare system.

Sparks

gabrielIT wrote: »

It is not only about gathering all informations, it all about SHOWING YOUR FACE.
I have been receiving update and letters from my creche for the last 7/8 days. are you saying that our Minister was not aware about the case up to yesterday?

The Minister should sit down and shut the hell up. If she says one word wrong it would prejudice every legal case possible (and we've seen that more than often enough). She has no role in enforcing the law; her job is putting that law in place. We are way past the point of her involvement. The Gardai have been called in by the parents; that's how that kind of breach of the law gets sorted, not by some politician pontificating in their quest for votes at the next election.

private footage was already organized last week for parents affected.

No, for selected parents. We tried to see the footage because our kid is in Belarmine; our emails weren't even acknowledged.

Hannibal Smith

Lolajay wrote: »

Exactly, i've also heard many stories from girls working or who've previously worked in creches!

You have to laugh at the old Irish Bury the head in the sand attitude!

My child's creche wasn't featured so they must be ok.

If anything suspect is going on in a creche the parent will be the last person to know!

Anyway, it's a personal choice, if I had children it wouldn't be what I would want for them but that is just me.

No, its not burying your head in the sand. you go visit and investigate a creche...they tell you their policies. you pop in unannounced and see how the kids are when they're not expecting you. you listen to the care providers tell you how their child's day went and you hear all they got up to. it is pitch fork yielding torch bearing mob mentality to think all creches are the same and its an insult to parents and good childminders to tar them all with the same brush. a child is your most.precious possession and no one would take a haphazard attitude when it comes to their care.

Sheep Shagger

TextureLikeSun wrote: »

Disgusting how anyone could justify leaving their children in these creches after seeing this footage is beyond me

That's it - tarr everyone with the same brush.

If you take your kid out and put in another crèche can you be sure the same thing wouldn't happen there ?

Would love not to have to use a crèche but it sadly isn't an option (won't be for most if imagine).

Have no intention of pulling my child out of Giraffe Belamine, would cause more disruption that anything. Clearly some trust with management has been broken but they are committed to putting things right. To be honest the four crèches highlighted should now be the safest in the state.

doubletrouble?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Forget of course most fathers don't want to have to be away from their kids. I bet most husbands and dads were gutted to miss the big things, first steps, first day of school, hell some even miss the birth because they can't get out of work! But yet there is a large area of society that assumes women home, men work. That said, saying you're a stay-at-home mum gets a lot of dirties too!. As you said, no winning.

these days both parents need to work and as time goes by it'll be the parent whose employer lets them do overtime that will be missing whether it's the mother or father. fortunately purplecat will be able to stay at home and be with the kids.but unfortunately for me in a couple of weeks though i'll have to start working weekends just to bring in the extra bit. as a dad i've missed things but to me it doesn't matter who sees what the kids do first as long as one of us gets to share those moments with the other half. if i be truthful i'd rather purplecat gets to be around for those precious moments.
but getting back to the posts.
firstly as i said before we cant afford the fees that creches ask for. now after speaking to a few people they say we're lucky especially after the program. we are lucky and unlucky.
we're lucky that the kids are at home but unlucky in other ways in that the kid aren't mixing with other kids their own age. again going back to an earlier saying i posted " no one knows what goes on behind closed doors." yes we are lucky the kids are at home but whether it's in a creche or at our home the saying still applies ,it doesn't matter who we get to watch our little angels there will always be that fear in the back of our minds.
now it does get us thinking as parents who have an au pair on whether the proper job is being done. i can see a huge upsurge for hidden cams.
all we can do is be good parents ,there is no rule book. it's how we as parents feel raising our children that makes the difference and making sure they get the best. it's not about what others say or think. this isn't about man versus woman, mother versus father. for gods sake as parents we have enough to deal with.
we all know that being a parent/parents is no easy feat. yes we all get frustrated sometimes, it's hard not to. but it's how we deal with the now and then that makes us better.

josip

ted1 wrote: »

Utter nonsense to be making it a sex issue.

I think "Twin Power" started it and vitani was responding to that post.

meeeeh

ted1 wrote: »

Utter nonsense to be making it a sex issue.

Once the stay at home dads will be just as common as stay at home mums, then it won't be a sex issue. I'm not saying it just a sex issue but it is also a sex issue.

I actually don't care what kind of arrangements people have, I just dislike smug one-upmanship. There isn't one perfect way how to bring up kids. Mostly people just try to do their best and sometimes we are not protective enough and sometimes we are overprotective. But nobody is perfect.

vitani

josip wrote: »

I think "Twin Power" started it and vitani was responding to that post.

Thanks, josip.

It's not just Twin Power, and it's not just on here, but since this story broke there's been a small percentage of people criticising parents for leaving their children in creches at all. Some of them have come out and blatantly called mothers selfish for not staying home, others have just congratulated themselves for making the 'right' choice.

Alo10

Was extremely upset and angry watching this last night, especially at the images of those little kids being slammed onto their mattresses and chairs, and being screamed at for not sleeping or eating with their hands all at the hands of their supposed "carer" I know I'd probably end up in court if I met that so called carer. What parent would sit idly by if this happened right in front of their eye's. While the secret recording of children without permission is wrong , I think that it is better that it was done in this particular case, than not done - clearly current HSE Inspection & consequent action (or lack of) is not effective. The fact that the Minister for Children was "unavailable" for this program is as disgusting as the video shown -

Like many on here we have our little one in a crèche thankfully only a few days a week due to our working days/hours, and our LO seems to love it - often running to hug the carers on arriving in or as we are leaving . The level of care there from what we've seen is very good on the whole and most of the carers seem to have a real passion for their jobs and a love of children. I can also understand the guilt many face by having to work and place their child in a crèche, though for most I imagine that financially most would rather be in a position where they did not have to - I know we would rather not have to do so. I do think that the crèche has been great for our LO developing their social skills and developing their personality – also because they have fun interacting playing with their friends.

Over all a lot of the proposed solutions I've read here involve inspection, camera's more training etc. All have valid points but on the whole will not necessarily fix the issues on their own . I think overall the responsibility needs to start with the crèche management. It seems to be very lacking if nonexistent in the examples shown. Our crèche does have camera's though not accessible over the web - not sure if they have sound, which would be necessary IMHO. I'm not sure I'd get much work done if they did - anyway these would need to be actively monitored - one of the crèches mentioned had then yet did not prevent what happened !

Qualifications - I agree that this is important in regards to child welfare/development/psychology etc - however this alone is not good enough. That "carer" screaming at the kids and slamming them down could have been fully "qualified" but still totally unsuitable for appropriate child care. Having passed a series of exams does not make a person suitable to care for young children. I'm sure there are many child care people out there with no qualification, who may have kids themselves and are fantastic carers and maybe from experience way more suitable to care for little vulnerable children. Qualification while very beneficial is not the be all and end all.

Inspections - the HSE should have more resources to do this in sufficient frequency in all parts of the country. They should also actually act on these, fining, withdrawal of grant aid, closing down, or prosecuting through the courts where appropriate. It’s a disgrace that many of these crèche’s have a repeated poor/bad record yet continue to operate unhindered and still in receipt of government grants. There should be clear pass/fail marks for every crèche with points for Good, Poor, Bad etc and depending on the area being graded minor, major, Critical.

Parents - I know we have probably been blissfully happy about how our crèche is run, but will now being taking a more active role in checking our crèche - have done surprise visits in the past to pick up the LO (all looked well) but will need to push a bit more for more transparency / feedback from the crèche - HSE inspection reports should be offered rather than needing requesting. "Parent-Teacher" type meetings should happen regularly and not simply on request. Parent feedback should be sought more than needing to be offered, and a type of highlighted concerns/suggested improvements published monthly and any progress (or lack of) highlighted. Proper communication with all Parents needs to be better, but only where needed - no need for floods of emails/newsletters etc. Often the simple stuff is overlooked - we have often been unaware of stuff as we were not told due to only being in a few days a week. They often assume you know or have been told.

To be honest I'm not sure what the correct solution to this is, a proper review needs to take place and then proposed actions actually implemented rather than become yet another expensive report gathering dust on a shelf. I hope something is done immediately especially in those crèches highlighted – for both the parents and their children who attend them. They deserve far better than what was provided. I hope that this issue will not fade away over the coming weeks, and I hope that the government and child care industry sits up and takes action. They both are more than well aware this has been going on for quite some time , and in more than the crèches highlighted, and should have needed undercover filming to get people up in arms about it..

Lastly I'd hope people remember that there will always be a few rotten apples in every profession so let’s not tar everyone with the same brush as those people highlighted in this program. I know the carers in our crèche were visibly upset this morning at what they saw last night like most people – but hope its a wake up call too to ensure that standards and level of care and affection do not drop

ameee

I don't think it should become a stay at home mother vs working mother issue. We all do the best we can for our particular circumstances. I stay at home but my four year old goes to montessori for three hours a day and she loves it . Im lucky enough to be able to stay at home while my partner works and to be honest the cost of full time care for one and after school for another would leave me with no wage left anyway.

The issue is some people have to both work and they should be able to leave their children in a creche knowing that their children are well cared for not bounced off mattresses and thrown about like ragdolls. I must say though i would without doubt pull my child from the places in question and Im very shocked people feel otherwise.

Ashbourne hoop

It was genuinely one of the most upsetting things I've seen on tv, I really wasn't expecting it to be so horrific. A few things really stuck out and i will have a vivid picture of them for a long time. The child being cursed at for putting their fingers in the food, this is totally unacceptable. The child walking while strapped into a chair was like something from a 90s Chinese orphanage documentary. Staff on their phones and not giving a shiney sh1te about the kids in their care and a lack of warmth from many staff was very unsettling. There just seemed to be a lack of stimulation and interaction in many clips shown

The "woman" in Links in the sleeping area should be prosecuted, and i don't think that's an over-reaction. The children must have been terrified, and I honestly think PTSD may be an issue for them in later years, that's how abbhorrent it was. I'm actually crying again as i think about them. Lack of training/qualification/staff numbers/salaries does not excuse this behaviour in any shape or form.

This needs to be maintained as an issue and not a one day wonder which we are excellent at in Ireland. Early childhood education cannot be ran based on making a profit. This needs government intervention with best worldwide practices adopted asap.

As a parent and someone who works with children/young people I'm really struggling to come to terms with what I witnessed last night. For anyone who missed it, trust me you're one of the lucky ones.

Orion

josip wrote: »

I think "Twin Power" started it and vitani was responding to that post.

Twin Power's posts have now been deleted. At best they were off topic. At worst they were a poor attempt at trolling. This thread is about the creche revelations not the rights and wrongs of putting kids in the creche in the first place.

NickD

paul71 wrote: »

Apparently HSE inspection reports are going to be published on the internet in the future, in the meantime if I had a child in a creche I would ask the creche to show me a copy of their most recent HSE report and if they refuse I would tell them that I am removing my child unless they show it to me.

Ask them for the last two HSE reports, as the procedure for HSE inspections is surprise visit where they will find any breaches (well the obvious ones at least) and a follow-up inspection within 28 days to make sure that the problems have been rectified. If you ask the creche for the last HSE report they will only give you the Follow-up report. And you can bet that they have gotten everything right for that.

fisher8181

Giraffe say they are now going to install CCTV which i assume parents are not going to be allowed live access to.
How does that help the situation? The staff must know what's going on already and don't need CCTV to confirm that.
What is the problem with giving parents a password protected site where they can log in and view how their child is being treated?

Or at the very least allow them place a baby video monitor on their cot which can be accessed online.

Sparks

fisher8181 wrote: »

Giraffe say they are now going to install CCTV which i assume parents are not going to be allowed live access to.
How does that help the situation? The staff must know what's going on already and don't need CCTV to confirm that.

It prevents he-said-she-said situations when someone makes a formal complaint. It could also facilitate HSE inspections but only if footage is kept and can be immediately called up by inspectors (and again, that means money for the HSE).

What is the problem with giving parents a password protected site where they can log in and view how their child is being treated?

I'd prefer that; but I wouldn't have any illusions about security for such a site. Password protected? How many websites have you seen of late where passwords were hacked or accounts compomised? (Hint, you're posting on one, your credit cards are managed by another and your kidding yourself if you think it's not widespread).

Sniipe

I notice that the thread: "Prime Time Special - 'Breach of Trust' - Child Care in Ireland." has been removed after 3:04pm. Perhaps someone can throw light on what happened to it? It had a couple of hundred posts in it.

edit: Its back now...

Sparks

Alo10 wrote: »

our LO seems to love it - often running to hug the carers on arriving in or as we are leaving . The level of care there from what we've seen is very good on the whole and most of the carers seem to have a real passion for their jobs and a love of children

Our son is in Giraffe in Belarmine. And all we see from him is what you just described. We did see him unhappy for about five or six days when the carers in the room he was in were changed (due to illness in one and maternity leave in the other). We thought it was down to new faces and change, but when it didn't subside, we spoke to the manager and he was moved within the hour to a different room and different carers and we've never had a problem since, ever. Turns out that one of the girls in the room with him was shown on last night's programme (and we know that because of Giraffe, not RTE, by the way, even though we asked RTE first).

Anyway.

Point is that even in the places that have now become infamous, it's not a clear-cut "pull them out". This isn't some saturday morning cartoon ethics play. The conduct we saw last night was not acceptable (though frankly, we were led to believe we would see far, far, far worse in Giraffe) and it's completely right and proper that people should be suspended and investigations and inspections carried out and in the case of Links, that the Gardai were called (by the parents, btw, RTE didn't think to call them at all even after filming what they filmed).

But people pontificating to parents caught up in all of this as to what they should "obviously" do really need to take a deep breath and step off a bit. It is not obvious what we do next, we do not have all the details yet, and we cannot make major choices based on four minutes of footage of one carer edited out of footage collected over several weeks. In the other creches, the decision might be easier because of the severity of what was seen there, but what was seen in Giraffe just wasn't bad enough to convince us that it cannot be fixed or that the carers we've come to know personally in there are untrustworthy. (And no, for feck's sakes, of course we can't trust the suits who run the chain, but that's a whole other conversation).

Parents - I know we have probably been blissfully happy about how our crèche is run

Wow, were you trying to be insulting?
You think we've been ignoring stuff?
All the things you go on to suggest, we've been doing or exceeding and this still shows up on RTE.

Alo10

Sparks wrote: »

Wow, were you trying to be insulting?
You think we've been ignoring stuff?
All the things you go on to suggest, we've been doing or exceeding and this still shows up on RTE.

Hey Sparks, nope didn't mean to be insulting.. :eek: poor post on my side Meant it as part of list of area's in solution to this issues raised for all creche's as in

• Qualifications
• Inspections
• Parents
• etc

I was referring to myself at the start of that in that we have not been as active in keeping an eye on how our creche was caring for our LO - not as a condescending " we parents"..

josip

When the story broke first I was suspicious of RTE's motives and but tried to keep an open mind about the crèche’s responsibility until I had seen the programme.

So now that I’ve seen what everyone else has, my suspicions of RTE have softened a bit. They may have their own motives for making the programme, but it definitely was in parents’ interests to see it and I hope that it can only result in improvements in the childcare industry.
Our child is in a Giraffe chain and my general feeling about his carers remains the same. It’s based on gut instinct, rightly or wrongly, and I think they are nice girls who like what they do. He’s only ever had one carer we’ve been suspicious of because she seemed to take pride in the fact that she was a disciplinarian.

I also think that the management of the centre try hard and do their best but are under considerable pressure from group headquarters to keep operating costs, ie. salary costs to a minimum. As a result, there are problems with staff-child ratios and the minders often appear under pressure.

I think the fundamental difference between a chain crèche and a privately run crèche is that in a private crèche the owners are on site and although they are also motivated by profit, similarly to the multiples, they can see the impact that cost cutting measures has on childcare standards at ground level. I would be surprised if Giraffe owners had the same level of appreciation/contact with what’s happening on the ground and I wonder if any of them would now be able to change a nappy. This evening I will get the latest HSE report from the manager, who had to check with Head Office for permission before she could let me take a copy home. Such are the constraints under which they work. There have been 3 different managers in the 2 years we've been there. The staff don't seem to change as often.

In the meantime, our son will continue to go to Giraffe. He likes it. He has friends. He socialises more there than at home. If we changed creche, it would be definitely be very sad for him to lose all his friends. And would we be changing to anything better? I don’t know. But if we have another child we will definitely be considering our other options apart from Giraffe.

queensinead

The creche workers in the film seemed far too young, inarticulate, bored, indifferent, to be left in sole charge of young children

They looked like they had anger issues from poor parenting themselves. None seemed to have any interest or talent for what is a very demanding job

I would have expected them to be supervised by a manager at all times--but there seemed to be no hierarchy, no obvious manager figure monitoring and giving directions to the staff, like you would see in a supermarket, or restaurant, for example

Along with getting taxpayers money, these creche chains make big profits and pay their staff close to the minimum wage, despite the extraordinarily high fees they charge, fees which are still somewhere near boom-time levels, while generally workers' wages in the economy have been cut drastically.

What has happened to the theory of the wonderful efficient private sector where businesses would compete with each other and drive down prices and drive up standards?

It's not working with creches. The state, or the taxpayer, will, as usual, have to step in and try to pick up the pieces

Lolajay

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

No, its not burying your head in the sand. you go visit and investigate a creche...they tell you their policies. you pop in unannounced and see how the kids are when they're not expecting you. you listen to the care providers tell you how their child's day went and you hear all they got up to. it is pitch fork yielding torch bearing mob mentality to think all creches are the same and its an insult to parents and good childminders to tar them all with the same brush. a child is your most.precious possession and no one would take a haphazard attitude when it comes to their care.

Yup, so why leave them with random people who probably never completed a leaving cert, did some form of 6 month certificate in childcare (or maybe not) who will quite possibly be replaced by someone else of the same degree 2- 3 months later....

I would rather not personally

paul71

Lolajay wrote: »

Yup, so why leave them with random people who probably never completed a leaving cert, did some form of 6 month certificate in childcare (or maybe not) who will quite possibly be replaced by someone else of the same degree 2- 3 months later....

I would rather not personally

By that you mean you have the luxury like me, of having the choice not to do so. Many people do not have that choice.

vitani

Lolajay wrote: »

Yup, so why leave them with random people who probably never completed a leaving cert, did some form of 6 month certificate in childcare (or maybe not) who will quite possibly be replaced by someone else of the same degree 2- 3 months later....

I would rather not personally

Not all creches are like that. The one my child is in has a very low turnover of staff, and most are mothers themselves.

implausible

Alo10 wrote: »

Qualifications - I agree that this is important in regards to child welfare/development/psychology etc - however this alone is not good enough. That "carer" screaming at the kids and slamming them down could have been fully "qualified" but still totally unsuitable for appropriate child care. Having passed a series of exams does not make a person suitable to care for young children.

Lolajay wrote: »

Yup, so why leave them with random people who probably never completed a leaving cert, did some form of 6 month certificate in childcare (or maybe not) who will quite possibly be replaced by someone else of the same degree 2- 3 months later....

I would rather not personally

I'd like to jump in here about qualifications. Firstly, it should be a condition of operation that all créches only employ qualified workers. Someone on here already pointed out that for a créche to run the ECCE scheme (free pre-school year), employees must hold childcare qualifications. This is the way to go.

The basic qualification is a FETAC Level 5 certificate in Early Childhood Care & Education. I co-ordinate this course in my college. While 60 hours of work experience is mandatory for all level 5 courses, it is 120 hours for Childcare. Gaining the qualification is more than just passing exams, the students have to get a good report from their work placement to get their certificate. The course is a year long one. Students are accepted from Leaving Cert and LCA and if over 23, they are interviewed and the LC may not be necessary. A level 5 qualification is equivalent to a LC. All students are Garda vetted.

However, a qualification is not enough on its own. In any profession, there needs to be continuous monitoring, support and training. I saw no evidence of that last night. The employees seemed to have no expectation of management checking on them.

There are many many fantastic childcare workers out there who have come through the FETAC system. Dismissing any of them as randomers with no Leaving Cert who did a bit of a course is hugely disrespectful to the profession.

trackerman

I've just viewed the program on youtube and I'm absolutely horrified.
I really don't blame the young inexperienced minders at the coalface, it's really down to the crèche owners and the regulatory body (HSE).

It's nothing short of scandalous that the HSE can allow so many repeat breaches regulations (and light regulations at that).
How many crèche’s have been closed down? Zero.
How many have been fined (where it really hurts the money grabbing owners)? Zero.

Honestly, checking for batteries in toys, cobwebs in windows is easy and convenient for the inspectors.
We all know that crèche businesses are there to make money and will take shortcuts wherever they can. Let this be a wake up call for HSE inspectors, do your job.

If the inspection service was provided by a private business I'm sure there would be calls for heads to roll.
But since it’s the HSE we just seem to accept that government provided services are inadequate.


I'm just so mad about this scandal, coming on foot of the nursing home scandals.

Rant over!

PS, someone just got the youtube video removed.... and it's not on RTE player either.

fisher8181

trackerman wrote: »

I've just viewed the program on youtube and I'm absolutely horrified.

Do you have a link for that? Can't find it and would love to watch it.

trackerman

It's been removed sometime after I watched it at 6pm tonight.

It was here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78CAWb2mGU


Seems quite strange, perhaps litigation is in action...

irishmotorist

fisher8181 wrote: »

Do you have a link for that? Can't find it and would love to watch it.

A YouTube link I found seems to be gone be gone but Broadsheet have an article about it today. You may find something there.

Hannibal Smith

Lolajay wrote: »

Yup, so why leave them with random people who probably never completed a leaving cert, did some form of 6 month certificate in childcare (or maybe not) who will quite possibly be replaced by someone else of the same degree 2- 3 months later....

I would rather not personally

Instead of cracking on with your own misguided perception of creche life...why don't you try and listen to those who have direct experience with it. all creches are not like those shown in the prime time show. a lot of creches are fairly top notch establishments that center around child development, personality growth andgeneral child welfare. or son has been in a creche. since he was 11 month s and there have been no changes in staff. all the girls are highly qualified with their qualifications displayed in the corridor for all to see. the children are extremely well cared for and they and the parents are happy.

The parents are not in any way at fault here. They pay good money to have their children looked after. the only people to blame are those shown abusing kids and if I want to put my kid in a creche I am perfectly entitled to do so without fear or suspicion that they are being thrown on a floor, cursed at and strapped to a chair for hours on end.

Orion

Folks no links to any site showing it with the exception of Rte Player if they ever do put it there. This is copyright material and nobody bit Rte can show it legally. This includes YouTube links.