primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Mtpayslips

I watched prime time last night and have a couple of comments.

I work for one of the city Childcare committees - I see crèches on a daily basis and am not saddened but not surprised by the footage shown.

In Ireland the low status of Childcare has a major impact on the industry - the options for the less academic girls leaving school remains 'hair or care'. We would not accept under qualified badly trained teachers in our primary schools so why do we not demand more from the early years sector?

IMHO the minister for children has clearly neglected a huge part of her brief and the opposition if they had any gumption should call for her resignation.

Moonbeam

It is off topic but that is untrue http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-unqualified-are-taking-teachers-jobs-26726700.html

The low status of childcare here does have a major impact on the services,we really need to look at the models in Norway,Sweden ,Denmark and Finland that actually enable people to work.
One of the reasons that I gave up a well paid job because it was going to be 2k full time or 1500 part time (3days) a month for my 2.

implausible

Mtpayslips wrote: »

IMHO the minister for children has clearly neglected a huge part of her brief and the opposition if they had any gumption should call for her resignation.

I don't see how the minister can be held responsible for what was shown last night specifically or the low esteem in which the childcare profession is held generally. Neither do I see how her resignation would help.

I quite like Frances Fitzgerald and would have some confidence in her to react to this appalling expose and see something done about inspection rates in the first instance.

I find myself agreeing with the rest of your post however; childcare seems to be an area that is not regarded as academic.

wolfpawnat

Moonbeam wrote: »

One of the reasons that I gave up a well paid job because it was going to be 2k full time or 1500 part time (3days) a month for my 2.

Same, well only I was studying, now I have no degree and have to stay home because any job I would get would not near cover the cost of creches. People are forced into hardship by financial greed.

Found out today a friend of mine had a child featured in one of the creches. I was wondering why they had to take time off with no warning from work, feel bad now for joking about availing of the good weather. They are currently looking into au pairs and smaller childminders

Kingkong

This thing sounds horrific, anyone know where u can watch it online. Missed it yesterday and my magnet box didnt record as it should of.

nino1

I have a child in a giraffe and got the following email from them

Dear ,
I know you are deeply hurt and concerned after viewing last night's Primetime programme and again may I say we are profoundly sorry. As I have stated from the outset, the video clips taken in our Belarmine centre show totally unacceptable conduct in caring for young children, primarily by one particular staff member. As you know this staff member is currently suspended along with two others, pending completion of our internal investigation and disciplinary process. The incidents shown last night undermine the commitment, care and warmth that the wider group of carers across all our centres give to your children, and whom you know and trust so well.

We want to reassure you that we have further re-examined our practices and procedures to ensure they are sufficiently robust to avoid this ever being repeated. We already outlined to you some new measures that we are putting in place to correct the serious lapse in childcare standards and following consultation and feedback from parents we have introduced some additional measures which we detail below. On completion we will appoint a third party Childcare and Early Years Expert to carry out an assessment of our complete childcare service to ensure it meets the absolute best standards of practice.

1. As promised we now have begun to install a CCTV System throughout our Belarmine centre and once satisfied with the installation we will commence rolling it out across all centres.

2. The CCTV, once installed, will be used for rigorous monitoring of care standards in each room by designated personnel reporting to our Director of Childcare and support team.

3. Senior operations personnel will review and take action where necessary in order to strengthen carers' knowledge and compliance of our policies and procedures, including protocol in relation to whistle blowing.

4. The on-going company training plan in respect of Child Protection and Managing Children's Behaviour will be increased immediately and training days will be posted on the parents notice board.

5. There will be a complete reassessment of risk management procedures for all areas and aspects of our childcare service by an independent third party service provider.

6. Supervisors will be deployed to assist the management team to oversee the implementation in practice of all policies and procedures and support training.

7. The centre allergy list will be dated weekly with immediate effect.

8. Further training and clarification on the completion of children's diaries will be instigated to ensure a complete factual account of each child's day is conveyed to parent. The layout of these diaries will be reviewed to ensure they best meet the informational needs of parents.

9. We will increase communication with each parent to address individual family needs over the coming weeks as this action plan evolves.

10. HSE reports and responses will be available in your centre manager's office and you can view these documents with the manager at any time. All centres should have these available on demand or at least on request within a few days.

11. Staff Garda Vetting and qualification status on your carer is available to be inspected in your centre manager's office. The delay in Garda vetting process is a national problem which has been widely reported. We adhere to HSE protocol on this matter. The protocol requires that a non processed applicant is not allowed to be left unsupervised with children.

We sincerely hope that this action plan will help reassure you of our commitment to rebuilding your trust and confidence in Giraffe and we will continue to keep you informed on progress.

Thank you again for your forbearance during this very difficult time and we thank you for the support so many of you have shown to your individual Carers this morning and over the last 10 days.

Yours sincerely,


I can't see anything in those 11 points that will make a blind bit of difference.
The one step they needed to take, the one thing that would make a difference is CCTV that the parents could access online and can see for themselves what's going on. If they have nothing to hide or be fearful of then this should be no problem.
Their major reform is to introduce CCTV with no access for the parents!!
For gods sake the links creche in the programme had this and it didn't help much. Now if the parents could have logged in and saw little Johnny strapped to his chair for over an hour then something could have been done.

I love the solution to the fabrication of diaries. They are going to "clarify" that it should be a factual account of the day and give them "further training" in which I assume they will be told that the diaries are not make believe.
Well with that solution I am now confident that when I read that my daughter clapped her hands all day to the sing songs that its true even though she has never clapped her hands yet and probably won't for another month or two!

fisher8181

Sparks wrote: »

Password protected? How many websites have you seen of late where passwords were hacked or accounts compomised? (Hint, you're posting on one, your credit cards are managed by another and your kidding yourself if you think it's not widespread).

Well how come Cocoon childcare can provide this service with no problems?

fisher8181

I agree 100% with the op.
How they could witness such horrible events at their facility and not at THE VERY LEAST insisted on live access CCTV, a facility available in other creches is beyond me.
It shows a complete lack of willingness by giraffe to tackle the problem if they even see it as a problem.

Sparks

fisher8181 wrote: »

Well how come Cocoon childcare can provide this service with no problems?

My point was that they can't - their service is no more secure than any other.
That may or may not be a concern to parents.

Orion

Orion wrote: »

Folks no links to any site showing it with the exception of Rte Player if they ever do put it there. This is copyright material and nobody bit Rte can show it legally. This includes YouTube links.

Once again - there are no legal streams of this programme. End of. Please do not discuss where to find illegal ones - including on Youtube. Any further posts requesting where to find one or suggesting ways to find one will be deleted. Repeated offences may result in sanctions.

I'm sorry to have to clamp down on this but you can thank Sean Sherlock for it.

Paddy James

nesf wrote: »

Just pumping in money is not a solution, I think we'd all agree with that but reforming the sector, better training, enforcing existing or new laws? They all require money and not trivial sums of it.

It does nothing for the State to say you cannot do X, if they don't spend money to make inspections happen. Similar to how all the traffic laws in the world don't matter a damn if you've not paid Gardaí to be on the roads enforcing them.

Sorry better training?
For who? You mean you have to be trained not to slam a child on a mat? Strap a child into a chair for hours on end? Seriously this is basic cop on if you need training to be told not to do that then you are an animal

Money
Again do u realise what these people charge? Did you see the mansion on the Sunday papers that the owners live in? They charged us more than our mortgage and I am sure a lot more would say that. Make they put in CCTV and all parents have access, cuts a civil servant going out form filing and this report and that report been filled while at same time kids been abused. With CCTV it's here it's now and problem seen and its sorted there and then no messing no red tape and any abuse placed closed owners barred from operating child care facility for life and worker in question barred for life. That's the only solution and it can be implemented very quick as a lot of crèches are wired for CCTV

Old_-_School

One aspect of this that's forgotten is that creches play a part in the childcare of most 3 or 4 year olds in Ireland regardless of whether it's a stay at home mum/dad, a relative, an au-pair or a child minder that usually minds them, most still go to crèches for the free preschool year.

Paddy James

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Instead of cracking on with your own misguided perception of creche life...why don't you try and listen to those who have direct experience with it. all creches are not like those shown in the prime time show. a lot of creches are fairly top notch establishments that center around child development, personality growth andgeneral child welfare. or son has been in a creche. since he was 11 month s and there have been no changes in staff. all the girls are highly qualified with their qualifications displayed in the corridor for all to see. the children are extremely well cared for and they and the parents are happy.

The parents are not in any way at fault here. They pay good money to have their children looked after. the only people to blame are those shown abusing kids and if I want to put my kid in a creche I am perfectly entitled to do so without fear or suspicion that they are being thrown on a floor, cursed at and strapped to a chair for hours on end.

That's all fine and I have seen all these Certs on walls of crèches . But you honestly can't say all well as you not there during the day? Not saying u wrong but I saw all those Certs in a crèche all seemed great but actually turned out I was wrong but I do hope u right

Paddy James

Mtpayslips wrote: »

I watched prime time last night and have a couple of comments.

I work for one of the city Childcare committees - I see crèches on a daily basis and am not saddened but not surprised by the footage shown.

In Ireland the low status of Childcare has a major impact on the industry - the options for the less academic girls leaving school remains 'hair or care'. We would not accept under qualified badly trained teachers in our primary schools so why do we not demand more from the early years sector?

IMHO the minister for children has clearly neglected a huge part of her brief and the opposition if they had any gumption should call for her resignation.

Sorry cant believe we back to training point

What training does a person need so not to abuse a child ? Seriously now it's simple common sense not to do it and if u do u are an animal there's no excuse for it. Please don't blame the system these people are animals

Paddy James

nino1 wrote: »

I have a child in a giraffe and got the following email from them

Dear ,
I know you are deeply hurt and concerned after viewing last night's Primetime programme and again may I say we are profoundly sorry. As I have stated from the outset, the video clips taken in our Belarmine centre show totally unacceptable conduct in caring for young children, primarily by one particular staff member. As you know this staff member is currently suspended along with two others, pending completion of our internal investigation and disciplinary process. The incidents shown last night undermine the commitment, care and warmth that the wider group of carers across all our centres give to your children, and whom you know and trust so well.

We want to reassure you that we have further re-examined our practices and procedures to ensure they are sufficiently robust to avoid this ever being repeated. We already outlined to you some new measures that we are putting in place to correct the serious lapse in childcare standards and following consultation and feedback from parents we have introduced some additional measures which we detail below. On completion we will appoint a third party Childcare and Early Years Expert to carry out an assessment of our complete childcare service to ensure it meets the absolute best standards of practice.

1. As promised we now have begun to install a CCTV System throughout our Belarmine centre and once satisfied with the installation we will commence rolling it out across all centres.

2. The CCTV, once installed, will be used for rigorous monitoring of care standards in each room by designated personnel reporting to our Director of Childcare and support team.

3. Senior operations personnel will review and take action where necessary in order to strengthen carers' knowledge and compliance of our policies and procedures, including protocol in relation to whistle blowing.

4. The on-going company training plan in respect of Child Protection and Managing Children's Behaviour will be increased immediately and training days will be posted on the parents notice board.

5. There will be a complete reassessment of risk management procedures for all areas and aspects of our childcare service by an independent third party service provider.

6. Supervisors will be deployed to assist the management team to oversee the implementation in practice of all policies and procedures and support training.

7. The centre allergy list will be dated weekly with immediate effect.

8. Further training and clarification on the completion of children's diaries will be instigated to ensure a complete factual account of each child's day is conveyed to parent. The layout of these diaries will be reviewed to ensure they best meet the informational needs of parents.

9. We will increase communication with each parent to address individual family needs over the coming weeks as this action plan evolves.

10. HSE reports and responses will be available in your centre manager's office and you can view these documents with the manager at any time. All centres should have these available on demand or at least on request within a few days.

11. Staff Garda Vetting and qualification status on your carer is available to be inspected in your centre manager's office. The delay in Garda vetting process is a national problem which has been widely reported. We adhere to HSE protocol on this matter. The protocol requires that a non processed applicant is not allowed to be left unsupervised with children.

We sincerely hope that this action plan will help reassure you of our commitment to rebuilding your trust and confidence in Giraffe and we will continue to keep you informed on progress.

Thank you again for your forbearance during this very difficult time and we thank you for the support so many of you have shown to your individual Carers this morning and over the last 10 days.

Yours sincerely,


I can't see anything in those 11 points that will make a blind bit of difference.
The one step they needed to take, the one thing that would make a difference is CCTV that the parents could access online and can see for themselves what's going on. If they have nothing to hide or be fearful of then this should be no problem.
Their major reform is to introduce CCTV with no access for the parents!!
For gods sake the links creche in the programme had this and it didn't help much. Now if the parents could have logged in and saw little Johnny strapped to his chair for over an hour then something could have been done.

I love the solution to the fabrication of diaries. They are going to "clarify" that it should be a factual account of the day and give them "further training" in which I assume they will be told that the diaries are not make believe.
Well with that solution I am now confident that when I read that my daughter clapped her hands all day to the sing songs that its true even though she has never clapped her hands yet and probably won't for another month or two!

Sorry to hear about your crèche

Can I ask if u removed your child

fisher8181

Sparks wrote: »

My point was that they can't - their service is no more secure than any other.
That may or may not be a concern to parents.

A parents primary concern is that they can check on and ensure the safety of their children. Any other concerns are secondary.
These concerns about website security provide a convenient excuse for crèches who do not want to install live feed CCTV due to the expense or due to the practices that it might expose.
I applaud the creches that have this and are putting child welfare first

lazygal

allthedoyles wrote: »

Saw this on facebook tonight

Very ranty and TBH I don't know what's the aim of it.

lazygal

fisher8181 wrote: »

A parents primary concern is that they can check on and ensure the safety of their children. Any other concerns are secondary.
These concerns about website security provide a convenient excuse for crèches who do not want to install live feed CCTV due to the expense or due to the practices that it might expose.
I applaud the creches that have this and are putting child welfare first

I wouldn't want my child being under CCTV surveillance all day. I'd have privacy concerns, like parents giving access codes to grandparents/relatives/friends thinking of using the service as I know has happened in other places that use it. If I was considering creche care it'd put me off a service and I'd hate to see it be mandatory.

Mtpayslips

I think training is one part of the problem - when the crèche workers receive only the very minimum training their understanding of appropriate behaviour may mirror what they experienced themselves as children. Furthermore, when a culture exists within a Childcare setting where the behaviour goes unchecked by management and more senior staff it gives it licence to continue.
IMHO there are people who are simply not suitable to work with children - they do not have the temperament for it - and yet as a low paying industry it attracts people who want a job - any job will do.

lazygal

Old_-_School wrote: »

One aspect of this that's forgotten is that creches play a part in the childcare of most 3 or 4 year olds in Ireland regardless of whether it's a stay at home mum/dad, a relative, an au-pair or a child minder that usually minds them, most still go to crèches for the free preschool year.

Not correct. A school service provides the preschool year, perhaps within a creche setting, but the inspection and regulations are different. There's also far more independent operators, most children I know do not attend crèches with preschools, they attend private preschools/Montessoris for the ECCE scheme, which is not provided for creche services.

fisher8181

lazygal wrote: »

I wouldn't want my child being under CCTV surveillance all day. I'd have privacy concerns, like parents giving access codes to grandparents/relatives/friends thinking of using the service as I know has happened in other places that use it. If I was considering creche care it'd put me off a service and I'd hate to see it be mandatory.

I really don't know how you could possible say that, assuming you watched the prime time show.
Would you not rather be able to verify the safety of your child rather than worry if another childs grandparent can watch the footage?
Seems like a crazy stance to take.

nino1

nino1 wrote: »

I have a child in a giraffe and got the following email from them

Dear ,
I know you are deeply hurt and concerned after viewing last night's Primetime programme and again may I say we are profoundly sorry. As I have stated from the outset, the video clips taken in our Belarmine centre show totally unacceptable conduct in caring for young children, primarily by one particular staff member. As you know this staff member is currently suspended along with two others, pending completion of our internal investigation and disciplinary process. The incidents shown last night undermine the commitment, care and warmth that the wider group of carers across all our centres give to your children, and whom you know and trust so well.

We want to reassure you that we have further re-examined our practices and procedures to ensure they are sufficiently robust to avoid this ever being repeated. We already outlined to you some new measures that we are putting in place to correct the serious lapse in childcare standards and following consultation and feedback from parents we have introduced some additional measures which we detail below. On completion we will appoint a third party Childcare and Early Years Expert to carry out an assessment of our complete childcare service to ensure it meets the absolute best standards of practice.

1. As promised we now have begun to install a CCTV System throughout our Belarmine centre and once satisfied with the installation we will commence rolling it out across all centres.

2. The CCTV, once installed, will be used for rigorous monitoring of care standards in each room by designated personnel reporting to our Director of Childcare and support team.

3. Senior operations personnel will review and take action where necessary in order to strengthen carers' knowledge and compliance of our policies and procedures, including protocol in relation to whistle blowing.

4. The on-going company training plan in respect of Child Protection and Managing Children's Behaviour will be increased immediately and training days will be posted on the parents notice board.

5. There will be a complete reassessment of risk management procedures for all areas and aspects of our childcare service by an independent third party service provider.

6. Supervisors will be deployed to assist the management team to oversee the implementation in practice of all policies and procedures and support training.

7. The centre allergy list will be dated weekly with immediate effect.

8. Further training and clarification on the completion of children's diaries will be instigated to ensure a complete factual account of each child's day is conveyed to parent. The layout of these diaries will be reviewed to ensure they best meet the informational needs of parents.

9. We will increase communication with each parent to address individual family needs over the coming weeks as this action plan evolves.

10. HSE reports and responses will be available in your centre manager's office and you can view these documents with the manager at any time. All centres should have these available on demand or at least on request within a few days.

11. Staff Garda Vetting and qualification status on your carer is available to be inspected in your centre manager's office. The delay in Garda vetting process is a national problem which has been widely reported. We adhere to HSE protocol on this matter. The protocol requires that a non processed applicant is not allowed to be left unsupervised with children.

We sincerely hope that this action plan will help reassure you of our commitment to rebuilding your trust and confidence in Giraffe and we will continue to keep you informed on progress.

Thank you again for your forbearance during this very difficult time and we thank you for the support so many of you have shown to your individual Carers this morning and over the last 10 days.

Yours sincerely,


I can't see anything in those 11 points that will make a blind bit of difference.
The one step they needed to take, the one thing that would make a difference is CCTV that the parents could access online and can see for themselves what's going on. If they have nothing to hide or be fearful of then this should be no problem.
Their major reform is to introduce CCTV with no access for the parents!!
For gods sake the links creche in the programme had this and it didn't help much. Now if the parents could have logged in and saw little Johnny strapped to his chair for over an hour then something could have been done.

I love the solution to the fabrication of diaries. They are going to "clarify" that it should be a factual account of the day and give them "further training" in which I assume they will be told that the diaries are not make believe.
Well with that solution I am now confident that when I read that my daughter clapped her hands all day to the sing songs that its true even though she has never clapped her hands yet and probably won't for another month or two!

It looks like the letter is a generic response by the directors and that they have no intention in backing it up or replying to parents concerns regarding any of the points.
They have ignored my emails in response to it so far.
I will update if they do eventually respond but I doubt they will.

lazygal

fisher8181 wrote: »

I really don't know how you could possible say that, assuming you watched the prime time show.
Would you not rather be able to verify the safety of your child rather than worry if another childs grandparent can watch the footage?
Seems like a crazy stance to take.

I saw the programme. I still don't want my child under CCTV surveillance.

How Strange

The Links crèche in malahide had CCTV and it didn't prevent child abuse taking place.

CCTV isn't the solution.

crazygeryy

i saw the documentary last night and as a father i can Safely say, i would not rest until those care workers in the filming were in jail.
they are the lowest of the low,i cannot get the image of the child being slammed down on the sleeping mat out of my head.
she deserves a taste of her own medicine imo.
digusting behaviour.

fisher8181

How Strange wrote: »

The Links crèche in malahide had CCTV and it didn't prevent child abuse taking place.

CCTV isn't the solution.

they did not have live CCTV that the parents could access.
Do you really think that the carers would act the way they did if they thought that the parents might be looking at whats going on?
It may not be the full solution but it would help a hell of a lot.

fisher8181

lazygal wrote: »

I saw the programme. I still don't want my child under CCTV surveillance.

well if you would prioritise keeping grandparents/relatives of other children from checking in on their child over ensuring the safety of your own child well thats up to you i guess.

lazygal

fisher8181 wrote: »

well if you would prioritise keeping grandparents/relatives of other children from checking in on their child over ensuring the safety of your own child well thats up to you i guess.

That's really not where my priorities lie, but if you think CCTV access for parents is the solution I think that's painfully naive.

vitani

Paddy James wrote: »

Sorry cant believe we back to training point

What training does a person need so not to abuse a child ? Seriously now it's simple common sense not to do it and if u do u are an animal there's no excuse for it. Please don't blame the system these people are animals

Training is part of the solution. Staff need to know what they can reasonably expect from the children in their care so that they're not flipping out over a toddler sticking their fingers into their food. They also need to be shown ways of communicating with the children to nip situations in the bud before they escalate. They also could do with training in ways of managing their own frustrations.

If someone is out of their depth in childcare day after day after day, then it's much easier for them to lose control. It's not going to work with every staff member, and there'll still be a few bad apples, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a point either.

Hannibal Smith

fisher8181 wrote: »

well if you would prioritise keeping grandparents/relatives of other children from checking in on their child over ensuring the safety of your own child well thats up to you i guess.

It is all about child safety....one element of it doesn't supersede another. I don't like the idea of people I don't know looking at my kid. I don't think cctv footage is the answer....but that said, I have no idea what is.