primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

dub_skav

vitani wrote: »

Training is part of the solution. Staff need to know what they can reasonably expect from the children in their care so that they're not flipping out over a toddler sticking their fingers into their food. They also need to be shown ways of communicating with the children to nip situations in the bud before they escalate. They also could do with training in ways of managing their own frustrations.

If someone is out of their depth in childcare day after day after day, then it's much easier for them to lose control. It's not going to work with every staff member, and there'll still be a few bad apples, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a point either.

I agree with Paddy James, training would not help the people shown on Prime Time. They are in the wrong job, plain and simple.
There was a major failure by management and owners of the creches in question to not check up on, see and act upon those abuses.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

That's really not where my priorities lie, but if you think CCTV access for parents is the solution I think that's painfully naive.

+1
The practicalities make it useless. You can't put it anyhere children's nappies are being changed obviously. No point putting it in a sleep room as that room should be dark. No point putting it in the kitchen, the children won't be there.

You can only really put it in the play areas, and that's not where the events on the prime time were happening for the most part.

It's easy to get around cameras, you put your body between it and the child. You can't hear what's being said with it. And you can't monitor it the whole day long either. Not if you have a job.

miss_shadow

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Daughter is in one the crèches that had the undercover investigation.

From what we know (which isn't a lot as they won't show footage to the crèches management or even the HSE) is that (in our case anyway) its not as bad as first thought.

Have been told the following was 'identified' (all was in one room only)

Shouting at kids
Kids sleeping on mats and not mattresses
Making kids stay seated for up to two hours over the course of a day

In our case when the issues were raised the staff member concerned was moved, they have also replaced the mats with mattresses (this is HSE best practice only).

The HSE/Gards have given our crèche three months to respond (to me this says the issues are not major), management are doing so by the end of this week.

They are installing CCTV throughout the centre and will change some other internal procedures.

RTE are asking parents of kids in the room if their faces can be uncovered when I goes to air to give 'maximum impact' real tabloid TV in my opinion.

Really feel for the centre stuff who are as expected quite upset with how things have unfolded, some kids were taken out of the centre earlier in the week by parents but seem to be returning now...

You feel for the staff? this is bizarre! people returning their children... again a bit bizarre. What if your daughter had a food allergy and was given wrong food by the creche, rushed to hospital and later found out the reason behind it? It is the whole creches responsibility as far as i'm concerned. management and employees witnessing this abuse.

I wouldn't dream of setting foot in this hell hole after watching that programme.

miss_shadow

bumper234 wrote: »

Hi.

So yeah i am a newbie but felt i should throw in my 2 cents worth here and try to get some facts out there. My partner is a manager for Giraffe and we have been talking about this last night. Firstly the accusations are for children being shouted at and being left in chairs too long. Lets get some things straight though. The undercover reporter was in a room and supposed to be helping another educarer but was in fact not pulling her weight. This put the other educarer under undue stress as she was having to do more work. Also what i am sure RTE will fail to mention is that the girl was already under personal stress as her Mother has terminal cancer and really didn't need someone who was supposed to be working along side shirking on the work load just so she could collect (illegally) good footage?

Should she have snapped and shouted at the child for putting his hands in the food? No of course not. Can any of us who have children honestly say that we have not at some time or other shouted at our child? Imagine what it's like when dealing with 10 kids and your so called support is basically got an ulterior motive. I know some will come on here and shout "shill" but that's the nature of people. My children are in a giraffe creche and there is no way they would be staying there if i thought for one second that they were not getting great care and attention from the staff. One bad decision by a staff member over the space of 6 weeks should not ruin the reputation of the hundreds of other staff who do great work day in and day out.

Mods feel free to pm me if you wish to confirm that i do not and never have worked for giraffe or any other childcare company (trust me you will know after 5 seconds lol)

So because her mother had terminal cancer it gives her an excuse to abuse children. insane. she should have gone on annual leave or some sort of leave to address her problems instead of taking it out on innocent children.
Undercover reporter not pulling her weight so another excuse for abuse the children in her care, she was there for work experience so therefore her work is not valid there! I work with vulnrable people and if my co-worker wasn't pulling their weight they will know about it or I would report it, taking it out on the people in your care is unnacceptable full stop.

I wonder would you take it so lightely if your children were in that creche and being treated like that!

IvyTheTerrible

miss_shadow wrote: »

You feel for the staff? this is bizarre! people returning their children... again a bit bizarre. What if your daughter had a food allergy and was given wrong food by the creche, rushed to hospital and later found out the reason behind it? It is the whole creches responsibility as far as i'm concerned. management and employees witnessing this abuse.

I wouldn't dream of setting foot in this hell hole after watching that programme.

In fairness, if you are in a full time job in this ecomomic climate, pulling a child out of a creche before you have a replacement organised is not very realistic.

irishmotorist

How Strange wrote: »

The Links crèche in malahide had CCTV and it didn't prevent child abuse taking place.

CCTV isn't the solution.

I don't think that there is one single solution to this. A number of failures were identified and I feel that several things need to change to make these types of things less likely to happen. Actions that I think would improve things include:
1. CCTV installation (not necessarily available for parents to see live, but that is an alternative that would be a useful tool in terms of staff behaviour)
2. HSE taking their role seriously
3. Creche management taking their responsibility and the HSE seriously
4. Staff numbers / ratios
5. Training

josip

Miss Shadow, both of those posts that you chose to attack were made before the programme was aired. You now have the benefit of having seen the footage which neither Sheep Shagger nor "self admittedly biased" bumper had at the time of posting.

Unknown721987

I'm a childcare teacher who got her degree from Germany. I have seen dozens of creches (to be fair, only in Dublin though) and none of them have been the standard I am used to from Germany (and Danmark where I used to to a training). I don't even know where to begin to say what is wrong here imo... First: the training of staff. Some people said what do you need a training for - you just don't treat children like this. Of course you don't treat children like this but with proper training you learn how to find other solutions, you learn how to cope with stress, etc. Some previous poster mentioned the Fetac Level 5 course isn't so bad and mentioned practical training of 120 hours. In Germany there are "teachers" and "teacher assistants". You become a "teacher assistant" by completing a 2 year full time (for which you do not have to pay, btw) course. During the 2 years you do 2 practical trainings in different settings, 300 hours minimum in each setting. This alone should give you a pretty good idea if you are even made for a profession like this. If you want to become a "teacher" your full time course is 3 years and minimum of practical training is 1000 hours.
About the whole big business system of childcare here... Parents in Germany pay about 250 Euro A MONTH for one child in fulltime. There are only very few private run creches there, basically there are 2 providers: the church (representing all different kinds of religion) or the community. Yes, they are substituted by the state and in the end are paid by tax but no one really cares. I think the whole private run creches system is mostly to blame for the whole mess. None of my managers in creches in Germany were bothered too much about getting as many children in as possible to make the most of money, the average group room is 3 sizes bigger than all rooms I have ever seen here. When I first saw the tiny toddler rooms I thought: why did they not use 2 rooms for one group - how can this be a "purposed build building" (as it is advertised so often here) - but the managers squeeze in as many rooms as possible, fill it with ikea furniture and crappy plastic toys, to get as much money as possible.
I would never again work in a creche here in Ireland, I was miserable, I felt like my experience and training was for nothing if all I do is disinfecting floors, toys and fill out stupid "report papers". The parents generally show you more respect in Ireland for the job you do, but I have never come across so many problems as in creches in Dublin.
CCTV in creches in Germany are unheard of, a parent would never even think of asking of a camera in a creche, we don't waste our time filling out with what toys little Peter played with (so instead we use the time to observe him to see if his development is on track, if he needs help with certain things, things like his bowel movement and how much he ate are things discussed when the parents arrive), we don't have age specific rooms: usually there are 18 children aged 3 to 6 being minded by one teacher and one assistant. Or there are groups of 15 children aged 1-6 (while only 3 under 3's and 10 over 3's are in one group) looked after 1 teacher and one assistant. This may look weird to some but it's a system that absolutely works: its not just that children learn so much better and faster from each other when they are different ages, it also means that one teacher doesn't sit at a table with 5 strapped in children feeding them as quickly as possible, shoving the spoon down their throats.
I could go on and on about this and just scratch the surface, this post is not meant to be pointing the finger at creches and say: you are all s***. But to show there are ways to change it, things that won't be fixed by cctv or more hse inspections.
I love this country, the irony here is that Ireland is 10 times more child friendly than Germany but yet - the childcare sector is being neglected like no other sector.

josip

Unknown721987 wrote: »

I'm a childcare teacher who got her degree from Germany. ... Yes, they are substituted by the state and in the end are paid by tax but no one really cares.

This was a great post to read. Do you mean that no parent with children in creches really care where the subsidy comes from or that German taxpayers don't mind that their tax, of which 8-9% goes to the church, is used for subsidising childcare?

Sparks

Paddy James wrote: »

Money
Again do u realise what these people charge? Did you see the mansion on the Sunday papers that the owners live in? They charged us more than our mortgage and I am sure a lot more would say that.

Paddy, you've missed the point a few times now despite people trying to show it to you, so let me be explicit - when we say money is the solution we do not mean money given to Giraffe or Links. We mean money given to the inspectors unit in the HSE so they can do more inspections and more enforcement. Gutting their budget has contributed to this problem; restoring it won't fix it completely, but it is the most bang-for-your-buck option available that will affect the problem directly and immediately.

So if you see the Ministers announce an increase in HSE funding for early years inspection, rejoice. If instead you see them seeking to punish the HSE or punish Giraffe first, weep, because that's business as usual - it's far easier to blame someone and punish them than to fix the problem.

Which is probably why Gilmore's talking about cutting training funding for people in the creches involved - because right now, if it was legal, any TD in the country would be fighting for the chance to be filmed assaulting the carers in that primetime episode, because the public wants simple visceral direct action (ie. bread and circuses) and TDs want votes.

But as far as the parents involved in all of this are concerned, not one iota of any of that helps them at all and nobody seems to be doing anything that actually will help them. Hell, the only people even talking like they will are Giraffe, and if that's not a condemnation of the other groups, I don't know what is.

Sparks

fisher8181 wrote: »

A parents primary concern is that they can check on and ensure the safety of their children. Any other concerns are secondary.

Yes, I can't think of any possible concern a parent might have about a stranger watching their child over the internet.

And before you ask, yes, I'd accept that risk for that service; I just wouldn't have any illusions about it. For example, I don't think it'd fix the problem unless I was to watch the feed for every minute that my son was in there; which would negate the point of childcare in the first place.

Also, could people stop calling it CCTV? CCTV is Closed Circuit TV, it doesn't feed to the web. You're looking for webcams, not CCTV. I know it sounds pedantic but if you go asking Giraffe for CCTV now, they'll just say they have it and then you'll sound like you don't know what you're talking about and you're more easily dismissable.

Sheep Shagger

How would people feel if the password for live webcams was passed to a relative of a child in the crèche who happened to be a paedophile?

My daughter is in Giraffe Belamine and will be staying there. Unless someone can give me a 100% cast iron guarantee that this couldn't happen elsewhere, why disrupt a child's routine (she loves the place, the staff couldn't be nicer).

Clearly everybody will have an opinion and have the right to pull their kid out if they so wish. Management at Balamine could not have been more accessible during this time, they have held their hands up (unlike some other creches) and are correcting the situation.

The creches involved should be the safest in the state now.

bumper234

miss_shadow wrote: »

So because her mother had terminal cancer it gives her an excuse to abuse children. insane. she should have gone on annual leave or some sort of leave to address her problems instead of taking it out on innocent children.
Undercover reporter not pulling her weight so another excuse for abuse the children in her care, she was there for work experience so therefore her work is not valid there! I work with vulnrable people and if my co-worker wasn't pulling their weight they will know about it or I would report it, taking it out on the people in your care is unnacceptable full stop.

I wonder would you take it so lightely if your children were in that creche and being treated like that!

WOW the anger is strong in this one.

If you had read my posts further along you will see i ALWAYS advocated the wait and see the footage approach before making your mind up that ALL child carers are monsters. I did watch the footage and i admit i was shocked (links footage actually made me turn away from the screen and there is not much makes me squeamish) The Giraffe care worker was wrong and there is no denying that. If it was my child (my kids are in a giraffe center btw) in that footage then yes i would be angry and at least contemplating pressing charges against the person involved.

Saying that i will still refuse to accept the (common?) belief that if one worker is doing it then they all must be. Most of us that have kids in creches have dropped in at all times of the day to see nothing but a happy child in the care of trusted people. Yes there are people who (obviously) shouldn't be in the care business but for the most part the carers are great and would do anything for the kids that they look after. As for businesses being in business to make money?? Well duh people that's what they do. Please show me ONE business in this country that has EXTRA staff sitting around just in case they might be needed. :rolleyes: I stated before and i will state again that anyone reading this could in all honestly go into work tomorrow, start filming for 5 weeks and within those TWO HUNDRED hours of footage find 5/10 minutes worth that could make the place look terrible.

bumper234

josip wrote: »

Miss Shadow, both of those posts that you chose to attack were made before the programme was aired. You now have the benefit of having seen the footage which neither Sheep Shagger nor "self admittedly biased" bumper had at the time of posting.

HEYYYYYYYYY I resemble that remark!!!

irishmotorist

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

How would people feel if the password for live webcams was passed to a relative of a child in the crèche who happened to be a paedophile?

Obviously not great, but is it much different to somebody like that seeing children in the playground/shop/zoo/beach etc? Fears could be allayed to some degree by having a new password every week that is distributed to parents or perhaps everybody is given a unique username / password. Don't forget that if this hypothetical paedophile relative was given a password to see a webcam image, then they may well also be on a list of people who is allowed to pick up the child.

I can't think of anything that's likely to be going on in the creche via that slight chance of a leaked password that I'd be more concerned about than other potential interactions in life.

bumper234

irishmotorist wrote: »

Obviously not great, but is it much different to somebody like that seeing children in the playground/shop/zoo/beach etc? Fears could be allayed to some degree by having a new password every week that is distributed to parents or perhaps everybody is given a unique username / password. Don't forget that if this hypothetical paedophile relative was given a password to see a webcam image, then they may well also be on a list of people who is allowed to pick up the child.

I can't think of anything that's likely to be going on in the creche via that slight chance of a leaked password that I'd be more concerned about than other potential interactions in life.

You would not even need a password, Unfortunately most people do not know how easy it would be for someone to hack into this. Difference between someone watching kids in a playground/beach/zoo is that if that person started taking pictures someone would notice and call the guards. A pedophile sitting at home watching kids on a hacked webcam wouldn't be caught. Does anyone want to risk pictures of their children getting passed around pedophilia groups worldwide on the off chance their child may/may not get shouted at?

Unknown721987

josip wrote: »

This was a great post to read. Do you mean that no parent with children in creches really care where the subsidy comes from or that German taxpayers don't mind that their tax, of which 8-9% goes to the church, is used for subsidising childcare?

josip wrote: »

This was a great post to read. Do you mean that no parent with children in creches really care where the subsidy comes from or that German taxpayers don't mind that their tax, of which 8-9% goes to the church, is used for subsidising childcare?

I think mostly people think that they pay so much taxes on each and every stupid little thing, the few euro going into substituting Childcare doesn't really matter. I'm not 100% sure how exactly the church run crèches are paid for, half of it is being paid by substitution tax and some goes in from "church tax" (everyone who is member of a church I.e. if you want to marry at a church etc) pays extra tax

Sparks

irishmotorist wrote: »

Obviously not great, but is it much different to somebody like that seeing children in the playground/shop/zoo/beach etc?

Yes, it's a darn sight easier for them to watch and harder for you to spot them doing so or to prove anything in court.
That said, the first thing you get taught in the children-in-sport courses is that the random stranger with a van isn't who you worry about because they're vanishingly rare; well over 90% of all cases of abuse are carried out by parents or close relations.
(And if you thought that the Links footage was bad, don't do those courses - I didn't sleep the first night I did mine. The stuff some people do to their own children is seriously ****ed up).

Fears could be allayed to some degree by having a new password every week that is distributed to parents or perhaps everybody is given a unique username / password. Don't forget that if this hypothetical paedophile relative was given a password to see a webcam image, then they may well also be on a list of people who is allowed to pick up the child.

You're not quite taking on board the problem with passwords (which is that the people you don't want to get them do not get them by being handed them; they just crack the system or guess the password - and this isn't hollywood, this happens every day on internet services from discussion sites to credit card systems).

I can't think of anything that's likely to be going on in the creche via that slight chance of a leaked password that I'd be more concerned about than other potential interactions in life.

That's not an invalid view; but it's not necessarily going to be everyone's. And if it's a choice offered, it should be offered without the illusions that it's going to be perfect. What you're talking about is a service that lets you watch in realtime, which is not going to be guaranteed to be secure, and which may or may not have recording of the feed. So unless you happen to be able to watch the feed all the time and there are cameras literally everywhere, it may be nothing more than a security blanket, and the problem with those is that they give a false sense of security.

Personally, I'm all for a CCTV system with recordings kept for several months and reviewed regularly by the HSE; but that requires (a) CCTV systems; and (b) money (for the HSE).

irishmotorist

bumper234 wrote: »

A pedophile sitting at home watching kids on a hacked webcam wouldn't be caught. Does anyone want to risk pictures of their children getting passed around pedophilia groups worldwide on the off chance their child may/may not get shouted at?

Why would a paedophile bother hacking into a webcam system to see some fully clothed children getting their lunch or playing with a toy spanner when they can do this and get much better pictures?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=child&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=tkenUeXnBaud7gaI2YGgCg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=667

Of course I don't want my child in any danger, but I think a webcam would provide many more positives than what I consider a tenuous opportunity for paedophiles to see a child.

Sparks

irishmotorist wrote: »

Why would a paedophile

...and right there you started looking for rational answers to an irrational question.

irishmotorist

Sparks wrote: »

...
You're not quite taking on board the problem with passwords (which is that the people you don't want to get them do not get them by being handed them; they just crack the system or guess the password - and this isn't hollywood, this happens every day on internet services from discussion sites to credit card systems).

...
That's not an invalid view; but it's not necessarily going to be everyone's.

I know it's not Hollywood. That's why I think it's unlikely that some nefarious group would go through the trouble of breaking into a system to see children being normal when there are a lot of other less traceable and more damaging things that the could and do do.

That said, I'm not advocating the use of externally available video. Of course not everybody would want it. I just think the risks that are being imagined here are much much greater than they actually are.

bumper234

irishmotorist wrote: »

I know it's not Hollywood. That's why I think it's unlikely that some nefarious group would go through the trouble of breaking into a system to see children being normal when there are a lot of other less traceable and more damaging things that the could and do do.

That said, I'm not advocating the use of externally available video. Of course not everybody would want it. I just think the risks that are being imagined here are much much greater than they actually are.

As compared to the risk that a childcare worker may harm a child? Risk of live web feed being hacked (imaginary or not) is way further up my list of no no when it comes to my kids.

vitani

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

How would people feel if the password for live webcams was passed to a relative of a child in the crèche who happened to be a paedophile?

Honestly? I'd care very little about it.

As far as I'm concerned, someone is only a danger to my child if they somehow have access to her on her own. If someone is getting some weird kick out of watching her colour pictures at creche over a webcam, then while it might make me squeamish, it's not actually harming her.

Sheep Shagger

bumper234 wrote: »

Saying that i will still refuse to accept the (common?) belief that if one worker is doing it then they all must be. Most of us that have kids in creches have dropped in at all times of the day to see nothing but a happy child in the care of trusted people. Yes there are people who (obviously) shouldn't be in the care business but for the most part the carers are great and would do anything for the kids that they look after. As for businesses being in business to make money?? Well duh people that's what they do. Please show me ONE business in this country that has EXTRA staff sitting around just in case they might be needed. :rolleyes: I stated before and i will state again that anyone reading this could in all honestly go into work tomorrow, start filming for 5 weeks and within those TWO HUNDRED hours of footage find 5/10 minutes worth that could make the place look terrible.

This post should be framed IMO.

Re the webcam comment, my point was i don't think its the solution.

Macy0161

Sparks wrote: »

So if you see the Ministers announce an increase in HSE funding for early years inspection, rejoice. If instead you see them seeking to punish the HSE or punish Giraffe first, weep, because that's business as usual - it's far easier to blame someone and punish them than to fix the problem

To a degree I agree, but at the same time the creches involved should be suffering more than simply reputational damage. We can blame lack of inspections, bad apples amongst staff etc, but they're ultimately a symptom of bad management rather than a cause.

From listening to the resulting coverage, it appears there is a problem with unqualified carers too. All carers should be qualified, and someone on work experience/ work practice should not be counted as part of the staff ratio imo (by definition they're not qualified!).

Macy0161

bumper234 wrote: »

Well duh people that's what they do. Please show me ONE business in this country that has EXTRA staff sitting around just in case they might be needed. :rolleyes:

So instead, ignore the staff ratio's? There should be enough staff on duty or on call, that no room is left below the laid out ratios. It's not up to the creches to second guess the regulations, as a cost saving measure. Presumably they know how many children are due in per room, the number of staff required to keep the ratio of the rooms, and the legally entitled breaks that staff have to be given. There is simply no excuse for not sticking to the ratio's.

bumper234 wrote: »

I stated before and i will state again that anyone reading this could in all honestly go into work tomorrow, start filming for 5 weeks and within those TWO HUNDRED hours of footage find 5/10 minutes worth that could make the place look terrible.

This point has been put to several parents (The Last Word last night for example) - RTE are insisting that the footage that made the programme, were not the only examples they found out of the recordings made.

Sparks

Macy0161 wrote: »

To a degree I agree, but at the same time the creches involved should be suffering more than simply reputational damage.

Yes, but that will take time. Garda investigations and HSE investigations have already been commenced, but they will take time and there will be solicitors and barristers and courts and it could be a long time before we get to the punitive fines stage, if we get there at all.

However, funding the inspections unit is something that could be done long before that point, if they were serious about fixing this problem.

From listening to the resulting coverage, it appears there is a problem with unqualified carers too. All carers should be qualified, and someone on work experience/ work practice should not be counted as part of the staff ratio imo (by definition they're not qualified!).

The girls suspended from Belarmine were FETAC qualified (Giraffe have identified them to the parents who wanted to know).

bumper234

Macy0161 wrote: »

So instead, ignore the staff ratio's? There should be enough staff on duty or on call, that no room is left below the laid out ratios. It's not up to the creches to second guess the regulations, as a cost saving measure. Presumably they know how many children are due in per room, the number of staff required to keep the ratio of the rooms, and the legally entitled breaks that staff have to be given. There is simply no excuse for not sticking to the ratio's.

Ok

So you know that tomorrow morning you are going to have xxx amount of children in the creche so you arrange to have xx staff working. 7 am rolls around and 2 of your staff call in sick (this happens in every workplace where bugs get passed around) Are you trying to say your company has EXTRA staff on the payroll sitting at home waiting for the call? Fwiw i know for a fact that giraffe will allow staff to transfer from one creche to another for a day or two if the are considered "spare"

Macy0161 wrote: »

This point has been put to several parents (The Last Word last night for example) - RTE are insisting that the footage that made the programme, were not the only examples they found out of the recordings made.

But seeing as RTE will not allow parents to see the rest of the footage then we only have their word for it?

josip

I've just had a WTF moment reading the other thread on this in After Hours

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84850963&postcount=216

Can anyone enlighten me as the whether these 9 interns will count as part of the minder-child ratio in Giraffe Sandyford? Bumper, you would seem to be in the know here?

Macy0161

Sparks wrote: »

The girls suspended from Belarmine were FETAC qualified (Giraffe have identified them to the parents who wanted to know).

I was talking about across the "industry" rather than specific incidents.