primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Caledonia

Sheep shagger, I thought it was maybe the same carer seen on Primetime treating the kids badly given that the one on Primetime has been there for over 3 years.

Since the woman who locked the child in the door was sacked that means there was another abusive carer there..not one bad egg.

Another poster removed their child in Feb 12...possibly a third carer involved?

Under the heat of HSE inspections they are complying with regulations but still treating the kids v badly.

How can you in conscience leave your child there? Have you considered other places/set-ups?

Dream13

The whole story with the quality of care in creches is scary. I put my child's name for Links (a different branch from that which appeared in the footage). She is due to start in two months. The problem is that after having watched the footage I no longer trust any creche and I would like to find a different arrangement for my daughter. If I tell the creche I no longer wish to avail of their service because of the above reasons will I get my deposit back? Anyone has an idea?

paul71

Dream13 wrote: »

The whole story with the quality of care in creches is scary. I put my child's name for Links (a different branch from that which appeared in the footage). She is due to start in two months. The problem is that after having watched the footage I no longer trust any creche and I would like to find a different arrangement for my daughter. If I tell the creche I no longer wish to avail of their service because of the above reasons will I get my deposit back? Anyone has an idea?

Really depends on the terms and conditions of your contract with them, but if it came to a civil case where you are sueing for your deposit the revelations of breaches of statutory requirements by links could well be seen as a compelling agruement for breach of contract by them with you.

Sparks

Caledonia wrote: »

How can you in conscience leave your child there? Have you considered other places/set-ups?

Name those other places. And provide your detailed investigation of them showing that they're safe, please.

Dream13

Hi Paul71,

Many thanks for the information.

Best regards!

Orion

ok folks. This thread is in danger of being closed due to repeated personal attacks and off topic insults. There is absolutely no need to attack parents who still have their kids in the creches reported on just as I wouldn't expect anyone to attack people who took their kids out of creches. Stay on topic and stay polite or this discussion is done.

paul71

Dream13 wrote: »

Hi Paul71,

Many thanks for the information.

Best regards!

You will probably find that your deposit is returned without arguement and the non-confrontation route is always the best to take, but in the event that it is not a small claims case only costs €5 to lodge.

mathie

Dream13 wrote: »

The whole story with the quality of care in creches is scary. I put my child's name for Links (a different branch from that which appeared in the footage). She is due to start in two months. The problem is that after having watched the footage I no longer trust any creche and I would like to find a different arrangement for my daughter. If I tell the creche I no longer wish to avail of their service because of the above reasons will I get my deposit back? Anyone has an idea?

I think you've a chance in light of recent circumstances.

But I've had dealings with the head of Links before (sick child out for weeks at a time) and I can tell you that she does not give in when it comes to refunding any money. Even a token minor refund.

Dream13

paul71 wrote: »

You will probably find that your deposit is returned without arguement and the non-confrontation route is always the best to take, but in the event that it is not a small claims case only costs €5 to lodge.

I am not quite familiar with this. Could you please tell me where can I lodge the case? Many thanks.

Dream13

mathie wrote: »

I think you've a chance in light of recent circumstances.

But I've had dealings with the head of Links before (sick child out for weeks at a time) and I can tell you that she does not give in when it comes to refunding any money. Even a token minor refund.

I wouldn't be surprise.

lazygal

mathie wrote: »

I think you've a chance in light of recent circumstances.

But I've had dealings with the head of Links before (sick child out for weeks at a time) and I can tell you that she does not give in when it comes to refunding any money. Even a token minor refund.

Yep, she's a lady who's not for turning. She's quite literally the Ryanair of creches, no refunds, no way, no how.

Caledonia

Sparks wrote: »

Name those other places. And provide your detailed investigation of them showing that they're safe, please.

Ones that don't have their HSE reports showing persistent breach of Regulation 5 on Child Welfare over the last 3 years.
Look out also for Regulation 8 and Regulation 13.

Ones that haven't had incident investigations after complaints of locking a child in a room.

Agree with Emily Logan when she says of creches we have to get away from the reasoning of 'we have no other choice.'

paul71

Dream13 wrote: »

I am not quite familiar with this. Could you please tell me where can I lodge the case? Many thanks.

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/4F0ACA2C99B3EAC78025715C00517853?opendocument&l=en

Sorry, fee is €25 not €5, you dont need a solicitor, and if the defendant does not appear or is not represented the court will make the award in your affair.

Dream13

lazygal wrote: »

Yep, she's a lady who's not for turning. She's quite literally the Ryanair of creches, no refunds, no way, no how.

Then, this is another reason for staying away from them. Very disappointing! These creches need a cultural change. The situation is similar to that in the banks...no ethics, only concerns for profit.

Sparks

Caledonia wrote: »

Ones that don't have their HSE reports showing persistent breach of Regulation 5 on Child Welfare over the last 3 years.
Look out also for Regulation 8 and Regulation 13.

Ones that haven't had incident investigations after complaints of locking a child in a room.

Agree with Emily Logan when she says of creches we have to get away from the reasoning of 'we have no other choice.'

Those aren't names, and you just made the argument a few moments ago that we shouldn't trust HSE reports and now you're saying to trust them. Unless you've got an actual solution instead of a replay of the inner voice of every parent in the area over the last fortnight, could you not add to our stress level please?

Sheep Shagger

Caledonia wrote: »

How can you in conscience leave your child there? Have you considered other places/set-ups?

Yes, have had a look around at other setups, but there is no guarantee that the same thing isn't happening there (reported via an HSE report or otherwise).

This whole saga hopefully makes everybody pull their socks up. I've looked at recent HSE reports and some of the breaches were not signficant and can be fixed easily (most already have been).

We've had a hard think, our daughter loves the creche, she loves the staff and we can see everyday the benifits from attending. We honestly think it would cuase more harm than good if we took her out (same think could happen elsewhere).

If I saw any behavioural change that suggested with our daughter that something was up I'd be all over it.

If after all this Giraffe Belamine had another review (official or undercover) and similar issues came to light then thats a different story. At the moment the management have bene more than open with info and are dealing with the issues.

Am more pissed off with my tax money going to RTEs biased programming at the moment if i'm honest!

mathie

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Am more pissed off with my tax money going to RTEs biased programming at the moment if i'm honest!

I'd be more unhappy about taxpayers money going to creches that repeatedly fail HSE inspections.

Caledonia

Thanks for the response sheep shagger.
I can see where you are coming from a bit more.

It does seem surprising given the last employee-door incident -was dismissed and that the report came from an employee straight away that the large blonde woman shown in the footage was not reported by a colleague, esp if she was there for some time.

I watched the programme back last night, you know how you think you might give too much hype to something, but I still thought Links and Belarmine were pretty bad. The distraction on mobiles and apathy in Rathnew I would say are common in a lot of creches, the abusive behaviour not as widespread. I'm just surprised that you weren't going 'Holy Mother of Jesus!' especially if saw the non-pixelated footage -their faces which was supposed to be harder to view.

I get what you mean that there will be massive attention now but there was after the door incident, the HSE were obviously on Belarmine like a rash but the one thing they couldn't really fully inspect/capture didn't improve. Like the parents who wrote to Alan Shatter a year ago obviously felt that it wasn't a one off incident their child had borne the brunt of when they weren't happy with a dismissal alone.

In terms of constructive advice if keeping them there, go in and observe for a few whole days(I hate when people always ref the Scandanavian countries but this is what's done in Denmark at the moment and I think it's doable), stuff like staff only getting their breaks at nap-times, no black out blinds would I think stick out to a parent there for the day even in the absence of aggression.

That Mary I lecturer on Primetime said that you can tell a lot about relationships between staff and children by sitting and observing.

gabrielIT

you are more pissed off with your TV license money than the wrongdoing in your creche?

I feel for once that the money I pay for the TV license or additional funding are worth if investigations of this sort are conducted. why the report was biased then?

doubletrouble?

we managed to watch it the other night. from a fathers point of view i did find it disturbing but my heart goes out to all the mothers that saw the program. i believe alot more just switched it off as it was nearly making them sick. my wife was told about it in work and i dont know if it was curiosity or if she was seeing if it was really that bad that she had to see it for her own eyes. but she couldn't sleep.
now to the progam. a few words sum it up
privatisation and profits. nothing more.
normally heads roll from the bottom up but i think in this case they should've rolled from the top down.
it beggars beyond belief how owners and managers couldn't have known what was going on from the abuse to doctoring files and notes. as one girl said along the lines of " if we dont get the attendances we dont get the funds" when doctoring a book and some where management didn't know :rolleyes::rolleyes:.
one creche made over €1m profit yet it was way understaffed.
as for the sacking and suspensions. you scream, roar and shout that loud for so long in a building yet the duty manager and everyone seems to be oblivious to whats going on. sorry but again from the top down.
i said i did find it disturbing, i dont know if i was seeing things or if it actually happened. maybe someone can clarify this.
theres one shot, where it appears a creche worker pushes a kids head off a table. it was only about half a second. to me this if true was one of the worst pieces of footage.
while most did admit serious flaws ( whatever you want to call it) one was saying the program has drawn untrue and incorrect conclusions from the incidents oi oi oi :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.
theres alot that can be said. but to sum it up.
this i'm sure is only the tip of the iceberg.
it wasn't a set up by rte.
again more heads should've rolled.
i dont know if creches need a license to operate but if this is the case licenses should be suspended.
theres no point in hauling in T.D.'s, ministers etc to an oireachtas committee. the owners of these places should be made accountable and therefore it should be these people that should be before the oireachtas committees to explain to the nation whats going on.

but like everything else in this country the hype will die down and in a couple of months if not weeks this will all be forgotten about. in a way you have to laugh at this system here, i can only imagine what would happen if these incidents were to happen in the states.

Sheep Shagger

gabrielIT wrote: »

you are more pissed off with your TV license money than the wrongdoing in your creche?

I feel for once that the money I pay for the TV license or additional funding are worth if investigations of this sort are conducted. why the report was biased then?

In the case of last night the complaint made three years, obviusly happened but RTE forgot to mention that it was reported within minutes, the carer was then suspended and after investigation sacked. Hardly fair or balanced.

Remember people, you can't just sack someone on the spot after an accusation (people need to think with their head here rather than their heart). Obviously anyone abusing kids should be sacked but it simply can't be done on the spot (innocent until proven guilty etc). Sad but true.

The footage is clearly shocking, am not denying that and neither are Giraffe, they have bene more than up front, are furnishing us with as many reports as possible and are undertaking to fix the issues.

As I said, based on a gut feeling, what we see ourselves, the happiness we see in our child going to the creche ecah day, the not wanting to leave sometimes(!) and the overall general vibe. I can't see a safer place at the moment.

Crumpet

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

In the case of last night the complaint made three years, obviusly happened but RTE forgot to mention that it was reported within minutes, the carer was then suspended and after investigation sacked. Hardly fair or balanced.

I missed it last night, kinda glad I did actually, but this is just really bad journalism! They should check their facts first (and so should politicians), this has been traumatic enough for everyone.

Crumpet

Ha ha... just checked my bank account and saw the direct debit for €1058 for Giraffe taken today.... Made me cringe.

Caledonia

Crumpet wrote: »

I missed it last night, kinda glad I did actually, but this is just really bad journalism! They should check their facts first (and so should politicians), this has been traumatic enough for everyone.

Tbh, it focused on the continued child welfare (along with other) breaches in the follow up incident inspections.

To me it was about the parents involved speaking up again and again, going to social workers, gardai and the Minister for Justice about Giraffe Belarmine in the hope that things would improve for children there.
Kudos also to the employee who spoke up and reported the incident.

The fact that she was dismissed is relevant but it also poses questions.
It was not just the woman in the footage being abusive to children in the last few years.

gabrielIT

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

In the case of last night the complaint made three years, obviusly happened but RTE forgot to mention that it was reported within minutes, the carer was then suspended and after investigation sacked. Hardly fair or balanced.

Remember people, you can't just sack someone on the spot after an accusation (people need to think with their head here rather than their heart). Obviously anyone abusing kids should be sacked but it simply can't be done on the spot (innocent until proven guilty etc). Sad but true.

The footage is clearly shocking, am not denying that and neither are Giraffe, they have bene more than up front, are furnishing us with as many reports as possible and are undertaking to fix the issues.

As I said, based on a gut feeling, what we see ourselves, the happiness we see in our child going to the creche ecah day, the not wanting to leave sometimes(!) and the overall general vibe. I can't see a safer place at the moment.

Again I struggle to be concerned about Rte fairness, all I see is the long list of breaches of regulations ( they were listed at the end of the footage for giraffe and the others)
I am pretty familiar with disciplinary policies but this is not the point.
I respect your position but for me this business is not transparent and while we should not be emotional at the same time we should demand standards and accountability from management and business owners rather than spending time on the editorial quality of tv programmes.

Sheep Shagger

See the only problem is if you don't worry about the editorial content of an emotional topic like this, you don't get the full picture.

There's no denying the footage is bad, the breaches are bad, the HSE actions (or lack of) are bad, but if the issues are addressed and resolved then can things not move on (for the better)?

That's what the ongoing checks are for isn't it?

Its disgusting that kids have been treated in this way and hopefully they are not scarred for life, those responsible should be dealt with (that's not management by the way)

Re the HSE, have always been pissed off with my tax money going to the joke of an organisation, it couldn't be more badly run (throwing cash it it clearly doesn't work) if they tried (every part of the body is poisoned beyond repair).

Mr.Wemmick

gabrielIT wrote: »

Again I struggle to be concerned about Rte fairness, all I see is the long list of breaches of regulations ( they were listed at the end of the footage for giraffe and the others)
I am pretty familiar with disciplinary policies but this is not the point.
I respect your position but for me this business is not transparent and while we should not be emotional at the same time we should demand standards and accountability from management and business owners rather than spending time on the editorial quality of tv programmes.

Agreed. I would go further and also say that the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, and the HSE, need to be made accountable too for not making their findings transparent over the years for all parents to see. These departmental practices of hidden methods with investigative findings really throw us all back into the dark ages.. I would imagine any one complaining to the HSE about standards in a child care facility gets told : "Right. Thank you, we'll look into that" only for the issue to disappear into the abyss. Good on RTE for throwing it out there in the public domain where it belongs, not just a report anymore gathering dust on someone's desk.

The lack of transparency and accountability is endemic: a consistent failure not just amongst management on a local level, but also on a grand scale in this country.

Also, it is worth mentioning, that most likely down the corridor from the abuse we witnessed on tv, there is sure to be an angel of a carer doing amazing work with children with lots of TLC unaware how actually bad her colleagues are. Or who tried to report lapses in care but was ignored..

There are good and bad teachers, carers, nurses everywhere, all working side by side.. the problem is nothing will change until the bad workers are trained, regulated, monitored and managed effectively.. and rooted out of a profession if necessary before they do any damage.

implausible

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

The lack of transparency and accountability is endemic: a consistent failure not just amongst management on a local level, but also on a grand scale in this country.

I had to say I was amazed when I discovered in the coverage this week that inspection reports are not available in the public domain - nursing home reports are, school inspection reports are and these are bodies about which the 'clients' can, in general, speak up for themselves.

paul71

implausible wrote: »

I had to say I was amazed when I discovered in the coverage this week that inspection reports are not available in the public domain - nursing home reports are, school inspection reports are and these are bodies about which the 'clients' can, in general, speak up for themselves.

Actually they are, they are just not easily accessable, you need to make a freedom of information request to the HSE for them and there is some sort of small fee.

Not ideal but I beleive that the long awaited promise of making available online has been advanced by this weeks events.

implausible

paul71 wrote: »

Actually they are, they are just not easily accessable, you need to make a freedom of information request to the HSE for them and there is some sort of small fee.

Not ideal but I beleive that the long awaited promise of making available online has been advanced by this weeks events.

It shouldn't have taken that. All you have to do is a quick google for school inspections.