primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Nordieboy

Well sourced Moonbeam.

Good to see that they are trying to address the concerns that many will feel.

bumper234

dub_skav wrote: »

I don't believe any defense should be drawn from the fact that the reporter was not pulling their weight and leaving the other worker under pressure.
This reporter was working there 6 weeks and presumably hired new, either as an employee with no experience or as an employee with unchecked references. It is possible that the reporter was actually an experienced child care worker, we shall see, but I'm not sure how likely that is.

You do know there is a 4 month backlog on checks right?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deprived-children-hit-by-garda-vetting-delay-29259845.html

dub_skav wrote: »

With any of the above possibilities, this was a new employee to this creche. So, either they were given too much responsibility immediately without proving themselves, which lead to their co-worker being under pressure, or there was an extra member of staff in the room while they were trained up, in which case the co-worker should not have been under pressure.

If they were put in place and given responsibility immediately, that shows poor hiring/staffing practice by Giraffe.
If they were not pulling their weight / appearing incompetent in front of 2 other staff, then that shows poor staff retention policies by giraffe.

So, if you ask me any circumstance where this person's presence contributed to poor treatment reflects badly on giraffe.

I will be interested to watch the show and see how this plays out.

Yes because no one ever goes to a job interview, comes across as a great hire with lots of experience and knowledge then turns out to be lazy/incompetent :rolleyes:

Moonbeam

That is garda vetting not reference checks.

bumper234

Fwiw i could go into and film in ANY organization with a couple of hundred employees for 6 weeks and with selective editing make it look bad, I guess we won't really know how bad this is until the show airs but i really do believe that RTE will be trying to sensationalize this as much as possible.

Orion

bumper234 wrote: »

i really do believe that RTE will be trying to sensationalize this as much as possible.

They already are. You think the leak was accidental?

Moonbeam

keithob wrote: »

My partner used to work in a creche 8 years ago and the ratio was 6:1

that in my opinion is pretty high number of children to mind for one adult.

herself no longer works there

however i do remember her saying that the food wasnt great for the kids and that the place was freezing at times.

im not surprised at all this has all come to light.

were there is money to be made corners are cut.

for 0-1 it is 3:1
1 - 2.5 it is 5:1
2-3 it is 6:1
3-6 it is 8-1 for full time

ECCE 11:1

for sessional it is slightly different and I can not remember it all offhand.

mathie

Orion wrote: »

They already are. You think the leak was accidental?

Did Prime Time leak it to the press?

Prime Time contacted the creches involved who in turn contacted the parents.
So they could have contacted the press.

bumper234

mathie wrote: »

Did Prime Time leak it to the press?

Prime Time contacted the creches involved who in turn contacted the parents.
So they could have contacted the press.

You can be sure they did. Oh great that ****wit Eammon Gilmore is all over the radio now acting like he gives a ****.

dub_skav

bumper234 wrote: »

You do know there is a 4 month backlog on checks right?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deprived-children-hit-by-garda-vetting-delay-29259845.html



Yes because no one ever goes to a job interview, comes across as a great hire with lots of experience and knowledge then turns out to be lazy/incompetent :rolleyes:

Of course people can turn out to be incompetent, but to put them in a position of responsibility before letting them settle in / prove themselves is poor management. That is actually why I added the "/staffing".

Fair play to you for declaring your bias upfront, but I think you need to be a bit more objective about this - however hard that may be given your situation. I know this is a classic "won't somebody think of the children" thread, but in this forum that is what you will get.

bumper234

dub_skav wrote: »

Of course people can turn out to be incompetent, but to put them in a position of responsibility before letting them settle in / prove themselves is poor management. That is actually why I added the "/staffing".

Fair play to you for declaring your bias upfront, but I think you need to be a bit more objective about this - however hard that may be given your situation. I know this is a classic "won't somebody think of the children" thread, but in this forum that is what you will get.

I have no bias and believe me if i thought for one second my child was being mistreated in any way shape or form i would be the first to press charges. What i am saying is lets not get to over the top with reactions when it is pretty clear that RTE/primetime will try to sensationalize what could very well turn out to be pretty minor mistakes made by a couple of people.

mathie

I wonder were other creches investigate and nothing turned up?
Is there a way of finding out?

josip

Nordieboy, have you made RTE aware that you complained about Bellarmine over a year ago and that the HSE investigated it by means of a scheduled visit? I would imagine that would be relevant and significant information for the programme.

Does anyone know if the HSE do random/surprise inspections of childcare facilities and if so, what is the breakdown in numbers between scheduled/unscheduled?

dub_skav

bumper234 wrote: »

I have no bias and believe me if i thought for one second my child was being mistreated in any way shape or form i would be the first to press charges. What i am saying is lets not get to over the top with reactions when it is pretty clear that RTE/primetime will try to sensationalize what could very well turn out to be pretty minor mistakes made by a couple of people.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, all I meant was that your other half being a manager for them could mean that you are a bit closer to this than others.

I agree that we need to hear more about it.

I agree and understand that the vast majority of creche workers are great and work in a very challenging environment, but I will be very interested to see if the staffing / management policies in Giraffe are strict in ensuring quality of staff before providing responsibility.

bumper234

dub_skav wrote: »

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, all I meant was that your other half being a manager for them could mean that you are a bit closer to this than others.

I agree that we need to hear more about it.

I agree and understand that the vast majority of creche workers are great and work in a very challenging environment, but I will be very interested to see if the staffing / management policies in Giraffe are strict in ensuring quality of staff before providing responsibility.

Is cool. I suppose with our kids being there then the creche actually gets a bit more scrutiny from her but this is her 4th place that she has been in and can honestly state that she is as shocked (probably more so) as others about these allegations as she only ever has good things to say about "her girls"

Nordieboy

Josip - I hadn't actually thought of that.

My wife was speaking yesterday to one of the mothers whose child was involved in some of the filming and incidents in Giraffe, there are/were quite a number of local families with their children in Giraffe, who all know each other.

RTE don't need my help.

neris

mathie wrote: »

I wonder were other creches investigate and nothing turned up?
Is there a way of finding out?

If you have a particular creche in mind you can contact the hse for their inspection report

josip

I didn't think of it as helping RTE, but you're the only person/report I've heard saying that there were problems over a year ago. There may be others but I haven't seen them.

It's bad for these things to happen in a creche but it's more worrying if the HSE are incapable of properly investigating and following up.

If RTE are not already aware of the ineffective HSE scheduled visit last year, then only fellow boarders will know of it.

neris

Moonbeam wrote: »

for 0-1 it is 3:1
1 - 2.5 it is 5:1
2-3 it is 6:1
3-6 it is 8-1 for full time

ECCE 11:1

for sessional it is slightly different and I can not remember it all offhand.

Also in a Creche After school is unregulated so 1 staff member to any number of kids

neris

josip wrote: »

It's bad for these things to happen in a creche but it's more worrying if the HSE are incapable of properly investigating and following up.

The hse can investigate and carry out inspections but they are understaffed at the minute and dont have enough pre school inspectors.

When the inspectors do call to creches they give their own personal views, opinions or ideas on the rules and regulations. So lets say a creche that may have branches in 2 hse regions is told by 1 inspector that the creche should so such a thing and they do it in the 2 creches the inspector from the 2nd region may come in and see it as a violations of rules or regulations thus your getting 2 different stories from the same organisation.

Sparks

Nordieboy wrote: »

Seriously 'josip' those are the questions you are asking? I asked myself, was my child shouted at? Was my child strapped into a chair for hours? And similar questions.

My son's in the Belarmine creche in the report.
Yes, I asked those questions too - and then thought "Hang on. He's never been unhappy when we picked him up or dropped him off and we do that at almost random times thanks to work so they can't easily fake it; he loves the girls looking after him and reaches for them every day when I drop him off; he's never shown any signs whatsoever of neglect or abuse in the ten months he's been in there; and the one and only time he ever seemed unhappy was when his carers changed because of maternity leave and then the staff moved him to a room with one of his other carers the same day we mentioned it without any sort of fuss".

On the other hand, I've seen the RTE Primetime team report on shooting before and was so disgusted with their standards that I filed a formal complaint with the broadcasting standards people over it; and their record in other cases is a matter of public record.

If there is a problem in the creche, it's not RTE I'd want to have investigate it - it's the HSE, who do investigate these places regularly.

2 are expose programs not in the good of public knowledge?

In principle yes, but there's an issue here over duty of care.
If RTE make these programmes, they don't act like they have a duty of care to the people in them. If they did, they'd have immediately reported to the HSE that there was an issue in the creche and handed over the footage they had - instead they made a report through this reporter without stating they were RTE, didn't mention the video footage let alone hand it over, and kept on filming for weeks afterwards.

Frankly, I don't want to be left alone in a room with that "reporter" right now - she filmed kids being abused (or at least that's what RTE say she filmed, I've asked to see the footage as a parent of one of the kids in the creche and they've not even responded let alone shown me the film). Didn't stop it, didn't intervene, just filmed so they could make a tv show and sell ads.

That's not duty of care to anyone or anything but their own profit, and I don't trust them as far as I could throw them. I don't trust the Giraffe company either. The carers I know, I trust; and my son's condition I observe directly. And if you're wondering whose side I'm on, it's his - not the side of Giraffe's profits and not the side of RTE's profits.

iMyself

Nordieboy wrote: »

I'm sure the vast majority of creche workers are good, decent and honest people, trying to do their best in a tough environment.
Given the times, we all are.
However, abusing another persons child, in whatever manner for whatever circumstances is horrific! Minimum, the individual concerned in bumpers post, should have been offered time off due to stress, if the managers saw that her personal life was so stressful to be affecting her work with the children.

I'm typing from personal experience of this facility and I too can provide a paper trail of emails and communications to anyone who wishes to contest this.

My wife saw a child vomit, a staff member clean it up and then without cleaning their hands, pick up and play with two children. In Feb 2012 my wife heard a staff member shouting fiercely at a child. In Feb 2012 I dropped my son off at creche on 3 occasions where the staff ratio was wrong. I waited to speak to a manager for 30 minutes. I left my phone number. I had to call the creche 3 times to get someone to talk to me. I sent emails to Giraffe Head Office and after receiving no satisfaction I removed my son from the creche.

This has been going on longer than any 6 week period! I am sick to my stomach when I think of what the staff were doing or could have done.

I have also had trouble with Giraffe in Belarmine (stepaside as the media are calling it) going back two years ago. Needless to say we removed our child quick smart I posted a long description but it looks like the mods have decided to censor it.

Not sure how much I am allowed say, but if I can just say Giraffe is a business first and foremost and their business is profit.

Orion

iMyself wrote: »

I posted a long description but it looks like the mods have decided to censor it.

If you're talking about the anonymous post that wasn't approved that was me. I couldn't approve it on the basis that it contains unproved allegations against a business and they were posted anonymously. This is not censorship - it is a legal issue. Boards is responsible for anything posted on the website due to our archaic libel laws. I said in my post very early in the thread that unsubstantiated allegations are not allowed - particularly ones directed at a specific creche. If you still feel that is censorship I'm sorry but we have legal constaints that bind us.

mathie

iMyself wrote: »

Not sure how much I am allowed say, but if I can just say Giraffe is a business first and foremost and their business is profit.

Capitalism at its finest.

And as Sparks said the duty of car shown (or rather not) by the reporter is disgusting. To film child abuse and not directly report it for weeks all in the name of making a name for yourself, winning awards and getting a pay hike is disgusting.

But the real issue here is that it happened and what can be set in place to prevent it happening again. CCTV in every room available online and backed up for a reasonable length of time should be the law.

bumper234

mathie wrote: »

Capitalism at its finest.

And as Sparks said the duty of car shown (or rather not) by the reporter is disgusting. To film child abuse and not directly report it for weeks all in the name of making a name for yourself, winning awards and getting a pay hike is disgusting.

But the real issue here is that it happened and what can be set in place to prevent it happening again. CCTV in every room available online and backed up for a reasonable length of time should be the law.

I put this to my partner 3 years ago about having cctv /webcams in the rooms so parents could log in anytime and see the kids. As we got deeper into the discussion we also saw that it could probably never happen due to privacy/data protection laws but that's something for someone else to talk about as i have no knowledge of them.

Sparks

josip wrote: »

I also think that a scheduled visit is worthless and that the HSE are naiive if they believe otherwise.

The HSE visits are not announced ahead of time. They might be scheduled with in the HSE, but the creche doesn't get advance notice.

neris wrote: »

When the inspectors do call to creches they give their own personal views, opinions or ideas on the rules and regulations. So lets say a creche that may have branches in 2 hse regions is told by 1 inspector that the creche should so such a thing and they do it in the 2 creches the inspector from the 2nd region may come in and see it as a violations of rules or regulations thus your getting 2 different stories from the same organisation.

The inspectors have a series of questions they must answer for their reports; the whole thing is standardised. It's not a case of wandering around for an hour and then giving their general impressions of the place.

iMyself

Orion wrote: »

If you're talking about the anonymous post that wasn't approved that was me. I couldn't approve it on the basis that it contains unproved allegations against a business and they were posted anonymously. This is not censorship - it is a legal issue. Boards is responsible for anything posted on the website due to our archaic libel laws. I said in my post very early in the thread that unsubstantiated allegations are not allowed - particularly ones directed at a specific creche. If you still feel that is censorship I'm sorry but we have legal constaints that bind us.

No problem, understood.

neris

Sparks wrote: »

The inspectors have a series of questions they must answer for their reports; the whole thing is standardised. It's not a case of wandering around for an hour and then giving their general impressions of the place.

there are standard questions but they do also give their own personal opinions and put it down in writing that their personal views/opinions should be acted on

Macy0161

Orion wrote: »

If you're talking about the anonymous post that wasn't approved that was me. I couldn't approve it on the basis that it contains unproved allegations against a business and they were posted anonymously. This is not censorship - it is a legal issue. Boards is responsible for anything posted on the website due to our archaic libel laws. I said in my post very early in the thread that unsubstantiated allegations are not allowed - particularly ones directed at a specific creche. If you still feel that is censorship I'm sorry but we have legal constaints that bind us.

I don't disagree with this, but yet the reporter is being accused of various things unchecked?

iMyself

mathie wrote: »

But the real issue here is that it happened and what can be set in place to prevent it happening again. CCTV in every room available online and backed up for a reasonable length of time should be the law.

and it is journalism such as this that is needed to get things done. If the outcome is that CCTV cameras become the norm then they definitely deserve an award.

Moonbeam

josip wrote: »

Nordieboy, have you made RTE aware that you complained about Bellarmine over a year ago and that the HSE investigated it by means of a scheduled visit? I would imagine that would be relevant and significant information for the programme.

Does anyone know if the HSE do random/surprise inspections of childcare facilities and if so, what is the breakdown in numbers between scheduled/unscheduled?

Yes, they frequently do them.