primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Postgrad10

If or when they are put online, will they be back dated or starting from the date the site is published?

mumto1

Im having serious doubts about the facility my daughter is in after seeing the programme. She attends a sessional service. They have a policy that your child must be toilet trained within the first few weeks of attending but they may wear the pull ups/ nappies for the first couple of weeks,however the parent must come to the creche to change their child if they soil themselves.
One day the inevitable happened and i received a phonecall to come in to change the soiled nappy. I changed her nappy wrapped it up and placed it in the bin provided in the toilets.
That afternoon i was called to one side by a staff member and told quite sternly that another child had placed their hand into the bin and touched the soiled nappy in future could I bring in a plastic bag and put any nappies in the bin outside the front of the creche. I was shell shocked at being spoken to like that and very upset about the incident,but i remember thinking afterwards why was a child left to wander in unsupervised like that?
I was persuaded by family members to keep her in and thankfully that member of staff is not working there at present but it did not sit well with me.
I think cctv should be in every facility and parents should have a password to log in.
I also think Rte should do another show with footage of the two creches that no abuse was found in as it would give parents some confidence and reassurance

gabrielIT

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

See the only problem is if you don't worry about the editorial content of an emotional topic like this, you don't get the full picture.

There's no denying the footage is bad, the breaches are bad, the HSE actions (or lack of) are bad, but if the issues are addressed and resolved then can things not move on (for the better)?

That's what the ongoing checks are for isn't it?

Its disgusting that kids have been treated in this way and hopefully they are not scarred for life, those responsible should be dealt with (that's not management by the way)

Re the HSE, have always been pissed off with my tax money going to the joke of an organisation, it couldn't be more badly run (throwing cash it it clearly doesn't work) if they tried (every part of the body is poisoned beyond repair).

the only problem is if any child at any given time has been mistreated, mismanaged or abused, this is the only problem. it is proven by now that the HSE system, for different reasons, does not work.

to me all the players involved in this terrible scandal should be removed, Minister for Children, senior Management in HSE responsible for the investigation unit, Senior Manager of Creches and the most affected centers closed.

It was similar, in different circumstances, with the Financial Regulator, the Government and the banks when financial system collapsed. there is no guarantee that the same perpetrators and actors would be "BETTER" just because they were caught. and yet we believe that this can happen, that they will now behave and control.

you say: let us hope that no kid would be scarred for life and I am terrified reading your words, it looks just like and incidental risk, let us hope for it not be true and then we move on, they will be better.

there is no emotional take in my words, only the consideration that this system must be rebuilt with the parents and children in the CENTRE of it.

if the HSE is, like you say, a joke when they are inspecting creches, what is the chance that one year down the line we would be here talking about a much worse situation.

oh by the way I forgot that we pay over a thousands euros a months for our kid.....but this money are not enough for our brilliant creche entrepreneurs to hire and keep their staff happy and involved because they are more worried about putting together lunch and dinner at 10 euros an hour...

nesf

Damning reading about some recent Government decisions in this area: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/state-upped-creche-ratio-against-advice-1.1413939?utm_source=morning-digest&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=digests

Exerpt wrote:

The Government increased the maximum number of children per staff member in preschools last year despite warnings that the move could place children at risk.
In addition, it pressed ahead with a cut to capitation fees – aimed at incentivising childcare groups to hire highly qualified staff – in the face of advice that it would risk lowering the quality of services. Correspondence shows a range of child development experts warned senior officials these changes would result in a poorer outcome for children. However, the Government implemented the changes last September.

wolfpawnat

nesf wrote: »

Damning reading about some recent Government decisions in this area: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/state-upped-creche-ratio-against-advice-1.1413939?utm_source=morning-digest&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=digests

When you think about it though, they are cramming more and more children into primary and secondary school classes in hopes of saving money too. They just don't care. It is all about cost saving measures, nothing about the way it affects the students and teachers, or minders and children.

nesf

Little Harvard have sent a letter to parents defending themselves: http://www.thejournal.ie/little-harvard-letter-parents-prime-time-creche-930468-Jun2013/

Caledonia

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

)

Re Giraffe Belarmine, have always been pissed off with my money going to the joke of an organisation, it couldn't be more badly run (throwing cash it it clearly doesn't work) if they tried (every part of the body is poisoned beyond repair).

My changes in bold. (You seem like you can take a joke sheep shagger!)

Just wondering had you guys heard about the shut door incident anecdotally?
Also to be fair to the parents they were the cause of the HSE being over that creche like a rash. 3 incident inspections happened directly out of their complaint. From memory the first two had child welfare breaches along with a litany of other breaches which did improve as they knew the HSE were doing follow ups.

Sparks I would take information from the HSE reports up to a point, they aren't the full picture-who will treat a child badly in front of a HSE inspector?- but are useful.
I know some stuff isn't that serious but there was a breach re sleeping arrangements in the second report and watching the programme -kids expected to sleep in a bright room, no other place to go for a story if they weren't tired- a small thing can end up being a big deal as it became a stress flashpoint for the staff. The sleeping arrangements issue was supposedly resoved in May 12 so did it change back after inspection?

Have you guys asked about the nap times, has there been a change in shifts for staff so their breaks aren't tied to them? If the kids don't want to sleep what happens? You should have the chance now to call the shots a bit.

One thing to take from this is that child behaviour is not really an indicator of what is going on in the creche. In links Malahide the Northern girl was supposedly well liked by the children, they would go to her in the morning etc.

It's naive to think that a facility can improve over night, that this is suddenly the safest place for children. Sometimes the changes needed are so fundamental that it's better to close the facility.

Have any of you considered going in to observe for a couple of full days?

Moonbeam

wolfpawnat wrote: »

When you think about it though, they are cramming more and more children into primary and secondary school classes in hopes of saving money too. They just don't care. It is all about cost saving measures, nothing about the way it affects the students and teachers, or minders and children.

In fairness class sizes are down to about 30 now which is alot lower then in the 80's and 90's.
Ecce is 11:1 .

If it was not so commercial it would be better for everyone.

Narnia2010

nesf wrote: »

Little Harvard have sent a letter to parents defending themselves: http://www.thejournal.ie/little-harvard-letter-parents-prime-time-creche-930468-Jun2013/

The absolute nerve of them, total lack of accountability. They should be thanking RTE for highlighting these issues to them as obviously their lack of management meant they were not aware. I know it wasnt the worst footage that was shown but my heart just broke for that child in the high chair resigned to the fact that she was just going to left in that chair for hours with nothing to stimulate her. Also the child closed behind two doors without any monitoring, he could be choking to death and no one would know. The cheek of them. They should be down on the hands and knees begging the parents and children for forgiveness. My blood is boiling again.

wolfpawnat

Moonbeam wrote: »

In fairness class sizes are down to about 30 now which is alot lower then in the 80's and 90's.
Ecce is 11:1 .

If it was not so commercial it would be better for everyone.

I get somewhat fearful when I think of 11 of my child in a room alone with one adult. Now not all are as active as him but still. It needs to be smaller. 8 at a max.

queensinead

trackerman wrote: »

.




If the inspection service was provided by a private business I'm sure there would be calls for heads to roll.
But since it’s the HSE we just seem to accept that government provided services are inadequate.


r.

Oh the irony of that statement!

The appalling "services" under scrutiny here ARE actually being provided by "private businesses", but as usual we are blaming everyone except the owners of these private businesses.

I have seen no sign of these people being grilled on our TVs. It's not just Frances Fitzgerald and the HSE who should be sweating here. The creche owners are the real culprits.

If we are calling for "heads to roll", then their heads should be the first to roll.

No, by some form of twisted logic we seem to be concluding from this scandal that "government services are inadequate" although these creches are private businesses and are perfect examples of that so-called great free-market we're always hearing about, where competition will keep prices down and standards up, if only the government would get off their backs and let them get on with it.

It's not "the government" who have profited on the backs of vulnerable children, it is private businesses. Yes of course the government should be inspecting more, but let us first of all put the blame where it belongs

Mr.Wemmick

queensinead wrote: »

Oh the irony of that statement!

The appalling "services" under scrutiny here ARE actually being provided by "private businesses", but as usual we are blaming everyone except the owners of these private businesses.

I have seen no sign of these people being grilled on our TVs. It's not just Frances Fitzgerald and the HSE who should be sweating here. The creche owners are the real culprits.

If we are calling for "heads to roll", then their heads should be the first to roll.

No, by some form of twisted logic we seem to be concluding from this scandal that "government services are inadequate" although these creches are private businesses and are perfect examples of that so-called great free-market we're always hearing about, where competition will keep prices down and standards up, if only the government would get off their backs and let them get on with it.

It's not "the government" who have profited on the backs of vulnerable children, it is private businesses. Yes of course the government should be inspecting more, but let us first of all put the blame where it belongs

..and with poor regulation and rules regarding the set up of private creches and the employment of carers, how are the owners going to be held accountable? Accountable to what exactly? Failure to monitor staff, train them? They don't have to, they can just employ a young someone with child care experience, minimum qualification and start from there.. and can easily argue that the employee always behaved impeccably with the children when they were there, they never realised there was a problem, and they have paper work/reports to prove they kept a check on employees.. but can't watch them all day etc.. etc. They get away scott free.. and why wouldn't they? Isn't it lovely having ambiguous laws and regulations, you can unhook yourself easily from the responsibility and blame the individual, or find a scape goat.. easy done, wipe you hands clean and walk away.

..and the government can do the same, and they do, all the time!

Early years child care/teaching needs clear unambiguous law/rules/ regulations and then you will be able to hold private owners accountable.. and once clear laws are in place, yearly reports made public, parents can then have the knowledge to make informed choices about where to send their children for day care. So it's down to Government officials/departments who need to get their fingers out and do their jobs - in this case, put procedures in place to protect children.

Snabe

Dream13 wrote: »

The whole story with the quality of care in creches is scary. I put my child's name for Links (a different branch from that which appeared in the footage). She is due to start in two months. The problem is that after having watched the footage I no longer trust any creche and I would like to find a different arrangement for my daughter. If I tell the creche I no longer wish to avail of their service because of the above reasons will I get my deposit back? Anyone has an idea?

I pulled my daughter from links last week and got my deposit back. they'd have some neck if they didn't. you're not pulling your child out on a whim, it's because they failed in their duties to the children in their care

wherswally

Although having cctv in creches and giving parents access to the footage could prove beneficial and help solve the problem,
there's also a few major down sides.

If even one parent of a child in the creche did not wish for other parents to be able to see their child live on the cctv, the creche would essentially not be able to provide the other parents with live footage because of that one parent (and there's always one).

What if unauthorized people got access to this live footage? Past parents of children in the creche, friends given the password and username login, or more importantly, pedophiles. And systems online are always at risk of being hacked into, so it definitely would not be unheard of if that happened. And of course the creche would get blamed for this as opposed to the parents who gave permission.

And I get that this is a very touchy subject since peoples kids are involved, but how would employees feel having their every move being closely monitored by parents of children? Will parents begin calling up the creche if their child is not being closely watched over while the girls are dealing with all the other children in need of attention?

I'm just not sure if it's such a good idea turning every creche into 'big brother', but i get that there has been a breach in trust and installing live cctv systems may be a short-term solution, but it could also be the cause of even more problems in the long term.

Hannibal Smith

nesf wrote: »

Little Harvard have sent a letter to parents defending themselves: http://www.thejournal.ie/little-harvard-letter-parents-prime-time-creche-930468-Jun2013/

I think this kind of attitude is more dangerous than anything. If I was a parent with a child in Little Harvard, I'd be removing them. The footage was chosen because

• it showed the workers on their phones the majority of the time
• the children aimlessly walking around with no in put or guidance from the carers
• the place was like a dump with toys everywhere
• they were playing outside with no supervision and with building materials,
• they showed children strapped to their chairs (one for over 2 hours)
• they showed a toddler locked in a room buy herself in hysterics and when she was let out an apology being demanded from her
• The children strapped to a high chair with nothing to occupy them
• babies crying in their cots by themselves, one of whom was behind 2 doors because he had difficulty settling!!!!

and people are paying €800 a month for that!! And the point is that despite the HSE raising concerns about these issues they weren't rectified.


That arrogance is just so damaging because they think all of that is grand and not worth featuring on a programme about creche mismanagment.

Narnia2010

Taken from yesterday's Sunday Times:

The Health Service Executive has for the first time exposed the creches against which complaints have been made. Documents released to The Sunday Times under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act last week document hundreds of complaints in 2012...

MOD: Please do not reproduce copyrighted material here in full without seeking permission from the copyright holder

Sheep Shagger

Caledonia wrote: »

It's naive to think that a facility can improve over night, that this is suddenly the safest place for children. Sometimes the changes needed are so fundamental that it's better to close the facility.

Have any of you considered going in to observe for a couple of full days?

Don't expect the place to be fixed overnight but in my opinion given the changes being made, it puts in in the same/if not better position than other crèches around the country.

It comes down to trust, we could go in and watch what the staff do and be satisfied, but anything could happen once we leave. We trust the staff and management so won't be removing our daughter.

username123

At the moment due to circumstance I am spending a lot of time in my local park. I have noticed in the past few days a group of children with some creche workers there (the creche name is on their t-shirts). Usually there are 3 or 4 staff members and maybe 10 kids or so. Ive only paid any attention due to the recent exposés of creches.

I notice that usually one member of staff goes and entertains the kids on a green area and the others sit smoking cigarettes on a nearby bench. The ones smoking are keeping an eye and if one child runs off from the main group they will (sometimes) get up and herd them back over (cigarette in hand). They take turns of one person over with the children and the others smoking.

Im curious as to what parents think about this? As an ex smoker (and not a parent) I dont think Id be happy for the staff to be smoking around the children like this. Theyre not on a break, they are minding the kids in the park so they are working. Sometimes children run over to the bench and are herded back over to the main group by someone smoking. It just feels a bit unprofessional to me.

Orion

You should report this to the manager of the creche. No creche worker should be smoking where the children in their care can see them and most definitely not while interacting with the children.

bumper234

username123 wrote: »

At the moment due to circumstance I am spending a lot of time in my local park. I have noticed in the past few days a group of children with some creche workers there (the creche name is on their t-shirts). Usually there are 3 or 4 staff members and maybe 10 kids or so. Ive only paid any attention due to the recent exposés of creches.

I notice that usually one member of staff goes and entertains the kids on a green area and the others sit smoking cigarettes on a nearby bench. The ones smoking are keeping an eye and if one child runs off from the main group they will (sometimes) get up and herd them back over (cigarette in hand). They take turns of one person over with the children and the others smoking.

Im curious as to what parents think about this? As an ex smoker (and not a parent) I dont think Id be happy for the staff to be smoking around the children like this. Theyre not on a break, they are minding the kids in the park so they are working. Sometimes children run over to the bench and are herded back over to the main group by someone smoking. It just feels a bit unprofessional to me.

Totally agree with you on this i would be reporting this to the HSE and the creche straight away. Besides the fact they are not watching the children they are smoking in the vicinity of them and the children can see them smoking which is unacceptable.

username123

Orion wrote: »

You should report this to the manager of the creche. No creche worker should be smoking where the children in their care can see them and most definitely not while interacting with the children.

I didnt want to stare at them too closely so although I have seen there is a creche name on the tee-shirts, I havent read the name. But I can easily do so.

I was wondering if I was over-reacting a bit (being an ex smoker you know?).

username123

bumper234 wrote: »

Totally agree with you on this i would be reporting this to the HSE and the creche straight away. Besides the fact they are not watching the children they are smoking in the vicinity of them and the children can see them smoking which is unacceptable.

Yes, that was my thought on it too - as I said in the previous post, I wasnt sure if I was having an ex smoker over-reaction. It seems not.

highly1111

username123 wrote: »

Yes, that was my thought on it too - as I said in the previous post, I wasnt sure if I was having an ex smoker over-reaction. It seems not.

not at all. If I was the creche manager I'd certainly want to know. If I was a parent I'd be absolutely livid.

username123

highly1111 wrote: »

not at all. If I was the creche manager I'd certainly want to know. If I was a parent I'd be absolutely livid.

I will get the name of the place and report it.

Edit - I just googled creches local to the park (the kids are all wearing hi vis so I assumed they walked there) and judging by the staff uniforms in the pictures on their websites I think it is one of the creche chains included in the PrimeTime report. I wont say the name here until I have checked it myself, but Im more shocked that they would be behaving like this, name on view in a public park, after the revelations on screen.

LegacyUser

Caledonia wrote: »

One thing to take from this is that child behaviour is not really an indicator of what is going on in the creche. In links Malahide the Northern girl was supposedly well liked by the children, they would go to her in the morning etc.

This is a very important point. I hear lots of parents say how much their child likes the creche, jumping out of their arms in the mornings, etc.

This is no indication that they are being treated well or how they are progressing in the creche.

bumper234

username123 wrote: »

I will get the name of the place and report it.

Edit - I just googled creches local to the park (the kids are all wearing hi vis so I assumed they walked there) and judging by the staff uniforms in the pictures on their websites I think it is one of the creche chains included in the PrimeTime report. I wont say the name here until I have checked it myself, but Im more shocked that they would be behaving like this, name on view in a public park, after the revelations on screen.

This^^^^

Definitely report them and does not matter you are an ex smoker (am off them 320 days myself) Smoking in front of young impressionable kids is disgraceful.

pwurple

Apart from the smoking, which is bad obviously... am I the only one that thinks it's a bit crazy to take the kids off the creche property for a walk about in a public area? These aren't school age kids here, it's toddlers right?

I love them to be outside as much as possible, but this is why creches should have their own gardens, no?

Orion

It's perfectly acceptable to take kids out of the creche to a public park once:
a) the parents have consented, and,
b) there are enough staff to maintain a reasonable ratio of adult:child.

iirc there's a higher ratio required for offsite activities (at least there is in schools). I think it's based on having enough staff + 1 in case a staff member has to leave with a child in an emergency situation - e.g. ambulance call.

How Strange

I remember seeing 3 workers for one of the chains mentioned in that programme standing outside their crèche smoking. I was walking past on my lunch break. It instantly struck me as a wrong thing to do when you think that they would have gone back inside to mind babies or toddlers. It also gave a very bad impression of the crèche.

Unknown721987

Really not trying to excuse the staff's behaviour and I would report the smoking to the HSE as well, especially since it seems to be a regular thing... But as a childcare teacher myself (who is not working in any Irish creches since witnessing the poor standard in way too many creches) I want to add: why do these girls smoke in a public park while they are supposed to look after a group? I know of girls working from 8 to 6 without a proper break between. Now any smoker working in an office has plenty of chances to get out and smoke. This is again about horrible mismanagment and lack of respect (towards staff and children) from manager.

The poster who was concerned that the toddlers were out in a public park in the first place: have you seen the outdoor areas in most creches? I hate to see these little outside cages, plastered with rubber floor and stuffed with pointless cheap plastic toys. I would be more concerned as a parent if my child goes to a creche from 8 to 5 without any chance of running around, feeling grass, exploring.