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primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

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    #632
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    dub_skav wrote: »
    That's nearly more worrying, were they incompetent, uninterested??? How did they not notice 2 of the 4 or 5 (not sure of ratio for 19 mth olds) kids under their personal care had wandered off.

    I think it was 11 or 12 kids. Still wrong even if it was 20


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    #633
    dub_skav
    Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I think it was 11 or 12 kids. Still wrong even if it was 20

    Yes, but with correct ratios, there should legally have been 3 carers, so technically 3 or 4 each


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    #634
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    dub_skav wrote: »
    Yes, but with correct ratios, there should legally have been 3 carers, so technically 3 or 4 each

    But no one knows how many children/staff there were. Giraffe say
    The creche said it had the correct staff ratio in operation at the time and that it had launched a full investigation, which would be the normal procedure in such instances.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-toddlers-walk-out-of-tv-probe-creche-29443667.html

    But they would have to say that of course so who knows.


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    #635
    AdpRo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭AdpRo


    3 staff with 11 toddlers is what Giraffe are saying, so ratios were correct (1 staff to 5 kids is law).


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    #636
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Yeah my Mrs was telling me about it. She got a call last night from head office to give other managers a heads up on what happened in case the parasites were at her creche today. Easy error to make i know (have twice thought stair gate was fully closed when wasn't) but that won't appease some people.


    If I'm reading you right, you seem to be justifying what happened.

    2 children were put at risk.

    As an aside...
    I was talking to a creche owner recently who told me there are 2 inspectors for the north dublin area who spend 3 -4 days on average doing an inspection. She last had a visit in early 2012.
    How can creches be inspected when the resources arent there?


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    #637
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Nora Famous Vigor wrote: »
    If I'm reading you right, you seem to be justifying what happened.

    2 children were put at risk.

    As an aside...
    I was talking to a creche owner recently who told me there are 2 inspectors for the north dublin area who spend 3 -4 days on average doing an inspection. She last had a visit in early 2012.
    How can creches be inspected when the resources arent there?

    Sorry for the confusion, i am in no way justifying what happened and if my child was there i would be taking him out of that creche.


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    #638
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.


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    #639
    quad_red
    Registered Users Posts: 5,561 ✭✭✭quad_red


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    Yes, you are. You make a snide remark about other creche's being perfect, as if this is some element of bad luck rather than part of a continuing pattern of bad practise.

    A faulty latch can happen anywhere. But what happened was the latch failed, then the children were so poorly supervised that they were able to exit the room and the premises completely, apparently cross a road and enter a green area by open water.

    I cannot imagine any circumstances where appropriately supervised children would be able to exit like this.


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    #640
    Hobbitfeet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 767 ✭✭✭Hobbitfeet


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    Should the faulty latch not have been fixed ASAP? You would think that there would be regular checks on all security and safety aspects in a crèche and that they would then be fixed ASAP to prevent anything like this happening.
    Wonder how long the latch was broken


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    #641
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being deal with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    I remember a story years ago where one child out with a group from creche strayed from said group. ..fell into a pond and suffered serious brain damage as a result. .im not sure if they survived.

    But the fact that these children were lucky and not injured isnt reason enough to skim over what happened. This creche should be absolutely perfect now...they should be dotting every I and crossing every T. If the latch was broken on a gate that lead to a road and water. ..is should be fixed without delay. If there was a third party there using a gate which was known to have a faulty latch...the creche management should have made sure that gate was closed properly.

    Im sure there is a sense of hysteria when it comes to these crèches now. But that hysteria is well deserved after the abuses that went on.

    Let the staff get over themselves.


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    #642
    dub_skav
    Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    As others have said, there are many things wrong here.
    1: The gate failed to close properly automatically
    2: There was no buzzer alarm to signal that the gate was not closed (the gates in the creche I use have a buzzer that contacts switch off)
    3: The children were sufficiently poorly supervised to wander out through the gate unnoticed
    4: It appears to not have been noticed for some time that the children were missing

    Of course not all creches are perfect, but we all already knew this one wasn't. That such a fundamental lapse has happened so soon after the recent revelations shows that the culture has not changed in that place.


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    #643
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    not every other creche but this could never happen in my daughters creche,
    they have one entrance/exit that is used but not only has a coded locked door, they ALSO have another locked gate outside so even if a child makes it out the door they have the back up of the gate.

    having only a single gate to stop children exiting imo is foolish as even the best locks fail at times, not to mention a staff member would and rightly should know where every child in their care is at a time,

    i have often gone to collect my daughter for her to be nowhere i could see, as soon as i ask a staff member they will find the staff in charge of her and she would say "oh <my daughter> is in bathroom b and she just went" (they have two sets of bathrooms) so they know where she is and how long she is taking, (anything unusual timewise they go check on them)


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    #644
    AdpRo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭AdpRo


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    As far as I am concerned the faulty gate is a side issue, the main problem I have is how 2 kids out of 11 can go walkabout without any of the 3 workers seeing they were missing straight away.


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    #645
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    It was a faulty latch on a gate that is hardly ever used (is not a main entry/exit point).

    Must be nice to know every other crèche in the state is perfect and have absolutely no issues anywhere.

    Not condoning this but its being dealt with (today) it could have gone terribly wrong but thankfully it didn't.

    It's completely wrong that babies, 19 month old babies, can get out through a single gate. In the creche I use, there is a door and 2 gates to get through to where the children are. Any one of those could be faulty and the child still wouldn't be able to wander out onto a road.


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    #646
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    HS, the baby you are talking about did survive but only because the person who found him was a doctor on maternity leave and she knew exactly how to treat him and was able to keep her head together in a way that most people wouldn't. However his quality of life is non-existent and he might have been a lot better off if he hadn't lived.


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    #647
    Theboinkmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭Theboinkmaster


    After all of these instances how is giraffe belarmine still open?! And how are parents still sending their kids there would they not have switched crèches by now.....


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    #648
    Hobbitfeet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 767 ✭✭✭Hobbitfeet


    What happened after the prime time show? Nothing!! No prosecutions, no fines, no closure, no follow up, familes left thier children there, new families joined. That's why something has happened again. Why bother spending time and money improving things when it's been shown people don't care, nobody is held accountable, nobody is punished so who cares if something bad happens to a child because they know they will all get off scott free same as last time


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    #649
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Hobbitfeet wrote: »
    What happened after the prime time show?
    New people hired, new manager, new CCTV system, garda investigation with all the parents contacted, HSE investigation still underway and several inspections so far.

    It's not perfect and it's obviously not good enough yet, but it's not nothing either, and going all tabloid-headline on it gets nothing done and helps noone.


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    #650
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Theboinkmaster wrote: »
    After all of these instances how is giraffe belarmine still open?! And how are parents still sending their kids there would they not have switched crèches by now.....

    Havn't moved daughter as cant be sure it would be any different elsewhere.


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    #651
    Hobbitfeet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 767 ✭✭✭Hobbitfeet


    Seems like what's needed is to hit them where it hurts...money...some big hefty fines


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    #652
    Hobbitfeet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 767 ✭✭✭Hobbitfeet


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Havn't moved daughter as cant be sure it would be any different elsewhere.

    What??sorry I don't mean to be rude or offend you but that's no sense. You leave your child somewhere where there is known and documented cases of severe abuse because you can't guarantee it would be different elsewhere. Sorry but that just does not make any sense to me that's like saying I stayed with the man who beat me because i can't guarantee another man wouldn't do the same.


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    #653
    Theboinkmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭Theboinkmaster


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Havn't moved daughter as cant be sure it would be any different elsewhere.

    That makes no sense whatsoever - leaving daughter in a crèche with sustained instances of abuse and neglect. Name one other crèche in the country with a worse record - Surely ANY other crèche would be safer, what's wrong with you


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    #654
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Hobbitfeet wrote: »
    You leave your child somewhere where there is known and documented cases of severe abuse
    There aren't any known and documented cases of severe abuse, you're confusing Giraffe Belarmine with Links Malahide. And Belarmine's last HSE report stated:
    • Children were observed to be fully absorbed, enthusiastic and happy in the various activities engaged in throughout the inspection.
    • The staff demonstrated sensitivity, warmth and positive regard for each child in their care.
    • The indoor and outdoor environment was comfortable, pleasant and safe and was laid out to accomodate the needs of pre-school children.
    • There was a good variety of play equipment and materials available to stimulate children's development and learning
    That's a direct quote from the last HSE inspection.

    Don't misunderstand me here - I have zero illusions about Giraffe, they're out to make money and everything else is secondary, and that HSE report is the tail end of a series of inspections that started off describing a nightmare scenario where there wasn't enough equipment, personnel, training or safety. But we knew all that going in, we examined the place ourselves, the issues had been resolved and it was the best available option. Are we now supposed to pull our kids out on the basis of a Herald headline and roll the dice to see if the next creche is better than Belarmine or worse than Malahide? Or are we supposed to wait for the evaluation reports from the professionals (the HSE and the Gardai)?

    And frankly, unless you have kids in there, you really haven't got a right to an opinion on this, you're just the hurler on the ditch while we're the ones losing sleep for weeks and second-guessing our choices and then third- and fourth-guessing them.


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    #655
    Theboinkmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭Theboinkmaster


    Sparks wrote: »
    There aren't any known and documented cases of severe abuse, you're confusing Giraffe Belarmine with Links Malahide. And Belarmine's last HSE report stated:
    That's a direct quote from the last HSE inspection.

    Don't misunderstand me here - I have zero illusions about Giraffe, they're out to make money and everything else is secondary, and that HSE report is the tail end of a series of inspections that started off describing a nightmare scenario where there wasn't enough equipment, personnel, training or safety. But we knew all that going in, we examined the place ourselves, the issues had been resolved and it was the best available option. Are we now supposed to pull our kids out on the basis of a Herald headline and roll the dice to see if the next creche is better than Belarmine or worse than Malahide? Or are we supposed to wait for the evaluation reports from the professionals (the HSE and the Gardai)?

    And frankly, unless you have kids in there, you really haven't got a right to an opinion on this, you're just the hurler on the ditch while we're the ones losing sleep for weeks and second-guessing our choices and then third- and fourth-guessing them.

    The hse inspection reports aren't worth the paper they're written on sure don't they get advance notice of inspections. Pointless.

    I've seen video footage of child abuse in giraffe belarmine. I've seen prosecutions and other evidence of abuse. Now they let 2 babies free on walkabout.

    Yes I'd pull my kids they're are plenty of alternatives in the area. Enough is enough surely - do they actually have to kill a child for parents to pull their kids from this place...


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    #656
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Theboinkmaster wrote: »
    The hse inspection reports aren't worth the paper they're written on sure don't they get advance notice of inspections. Pointless.
    No, they don't get advance notice.
    I've seen video footage of child abuse in giraffe belarmine.
    You're alone if you have. The video footage from belarmine was one girl shouting in the playground and kids strapped into chairs for too long. That's not abuse, that's poor care and negligence. If you want to see abuse, go ask the ISPCC. Or watch the video from Links because that was abuse.

    But heaven forbid you should use the correct terms that have meant the same thing for decades so that everyone could understand each other...
    I've seen prosecutions and other evidence of abuse.
    No, you haven't.
    Yes I'd pull my kids they're are plenty of alternatives in the area.
    Researched them all, have you? Pulled the HSE reports for the last five years, done the budgeting to be sure you can pay the bills and the mortgage instead of choosing between them, have you? Lost sleep for the last month or three over this, have you?

    These are our kids mate. Go troll somewhere else.


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    #657
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    Theboinkmaster wrote: »
    The hse inspection reports aren't worth the paper they're written on sure don't they get advance notice of inspections. Pointless.

    I've seen video footage of child abuse in giraffe belarmine. I've seen prosecutions and other evidence of abuse. Now they let 2 babies free on walkabout.

    Yes I'd pull my kids they're are plenty of alternatives in the area. Enough is enough surely - do they actually have to kill a child for parents to pull their kids from this place...

    The HSE do both unannounced and announced checks in creches.

    *mod note*
    Can you please tone down your posts and if you are going to state things as fact please supply evidence.


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    #658
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Look everybody's entitled to their opinion.

    There have been issues in the past and they've been dealt with, the thing yesterday obviously isn't ideal but it could have happened anywhere.

    We could move our daughter, that would cause disruption as she loves the place and the staff were genuinely upset this morning after what happened yesterday.

    It's hard to explain in writing here but we are not the only ones not pulling our children out. Am confident the crèche is doing everything it can to get things right.


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    #659
    Theboinkmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭Theboinkmaster


    Sparks wrote: »
    No, they don't get advance notice.
    You're alone if you have. The video footage from belarmine was one girl shouting in the playground and kids strapped into chairs for too long. That's not abuse, that's poor care and negligence. If you want to see abuse, go ask the ISPCC. Or watch the video from Links because that was abuse.

    But heaven forbid you should use the correct terms that have meant the same thing for decades so that everyone could understand each other...

    No, you haven't.

    Researched them all, have you? Pulled the HSE reports for the last five years, done the budgeting to be sure you can pay the bills and the mortgage instead of choosing between them, have you? Lost sleep for the last month or three over this, have you?

    These are our kids mate. Go troll somewhere else.

    They do get advanced notice for some. Link to show your quote is from an unplanned visit..

    I would call what I saw as abuse, perhaps we have different interpretations of the word.

    Yes I have done all that I have kids in my local creche myself and am very happy with it. But I've seen some of the staff that worked in the belarmine giraffe first hand and animals is what I'd describe them as. Absolute animals so I'm not surprised at all this branch keeps popping up on the news.

    Letting 2 kids out is unforgivable and just reinforces what a shambles the place is. And they'll keep getting away with it because of parents like you happy to pay your grand a month.


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    #660
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    Was giraffe not the creche where the kid was strapped to a chair and crying? He got himself into such a state he was gagging and so the care worker hauled him out od the chair and told him he was going to the baby room? How can you not consider that abuse. ...he was absolutely distraught and then humiliated. ..the footage of him sobbing as he was starting to calm down was heartbreaking. The undercover reporter tried to intervene and she was told she'd learn.

    That one particular care worker in giraffe may not have been as physical as the one in Links...but we all saw the footage from giraffe and how that worker treated those kids and it was abusive and horrendous.

    Then to find out that two kids escaped from the place, across a road and near water? Seriously? I am all for taking a step back from sensationalist media, but not when it could directly effect my kids.

    A child maybe happy because thats all they know...kids are resilient. ..but they could be a million times happier in another creche and possibly safer. What if your kid had been the one distraught strapped to the chair? Or if something horrid had happened to the kids that got out? Would you move them then?


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    #661
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,683 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Yeah my Mrs was telling me about it. She got a call last night from head office to give other managers a heads up on what happened in case the parasites were at her creche today. Easy error to make i know (have twice thought stair gate was fully closed when wasn't) but that won't appease some people.

    Why would you call reporters parasites? Some of these issues need to be exposed, and reported! Journalists and reporters are responsible for lots of things that otherwise would have been brushed under the carpet.


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