primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

Moonbeam

Folks this thread is going to be closed if the conversation is not kept on topic and if people do not start being more civil.

quad_red

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Look everybody's entitled to their opinion.

There have been issues in the past and they've been dealt with, the thing yesterday obviously isn't ideal but it could have happened anywhere.

We could move our daughter, that would cause disruption as she loves the place and the staff were genuinely upset this morning after what happened yesterday.

It's hard to explain in writing here but we are not the only ones not pulling our children out. Am confident the crèche is doing everything it can to get things right.

I can only imagine how upsetting this is for ye.

But I honestly don't think this could have happened 'anywhere'. It speaks to disturbing safety problems with the facility itself. Process problems in not supervising outside workers moving in and out of the premises. Basic child minding practice in terms of full time supervision of children (no one noticed two young toddlers were no longer present?).

pwurple

quad_red wrote: »

I can only imagine how upsetting this is for ye.

But I honestly don't think this could have happened 'anywhere'. It speaks to disturbing safety problems with the facility itself. Process problems in not supervising outside workers moving in and out of the premises. Basic child minding practice in terms of full time supervision of children (no one noticed two young toddlers were no longer present?).

I agree, how on earth can there be a point where if one gate is left open, 1 year olds are off crossing a road by themselves?

There are 2 gates and a door before I get to the childrens area in my daughters creche, and there is a huge spring-loaded gate outside the front garden before you get to the street as well. That's 4 places in a row that would need to be left open for a child in our creche to get onto a road. 4, not 1.

It is completely baffling to me how anyone can think this could have happened anywhere. There should never be 1 point of failure for creche gates.

Those children could have been killed by a car in the blink of an eye.

Not only would I take my child out of there, but I'd be taking legal advice as well.

quad_red

I gotta say, I find the trenchant defence for the place quite baffling.

Sparks wrote: »

And frankly, unless you have kids in there, you really haven't got a right to an opinion on this, you're just the hurler on the ditch while we're the ones losing sleep for weeks and second-guessing our choices and then third- and fourth-guessing them.

Sparks wrote: »

These are our kids mate. Go troll somewhere else.

I mean, Sparks - you're a mod on a discussion forum (I know, not in parenting, but in other categories) telling people they don't have a right to an opinion and calling people you disagree with trolls.

You've got kids there so obviously you've got a unique insight to offer.

But I think people are well within their rights to express bafflement that people would leave kids in a facility that is so poorly run two toddlers lives were seriously endangered when they were able to wander out of supposedly supervised (and expensive) facility and weren't noticed for something like twenty minutes? Especially coming after what happened previously!

Eddie2008

We live in this area and our child attends a different creche - a small one that is not a chain. It doesn't have what some may consider the best facilities like Giraffe have but what it does have is a truely loving caring environment. There are only small number of staff that I have become to consider friends over the years, there is a low turnover of staff too.

I remember when we were choosing a creche, some people raved about the great facilities in Giraffe, but we believed there was one thing lacking; a loving atmosphere. Giraffe seemed so clinical to us... So we went with the creche that had the loving atmosphere and not the one that was shiney and new. The best decision we ever made. When kids are this age, they needs tons of love, plenty of attention and encouragement first. Everything else is secondary.

When we saw the kids strapped into chairs, we were utterly astonished. We didnt know these chairs even existed - they should be banned. Thats not ok. And kids wandering off is not ok. That many kids sleeping on mats in bright room, is not ok - do they actually get a nap as a result?

In my opinion the whole model behind these chains is wrong. How can a business really provide the level of care a child needs at this age? For a start they are just way too big to be in anyway intimate. That is one good reason alone not send a child there.

Our child has no behavioral problems. She has been taught good manners (not down to us but the creche!), does what she is told; bed, at the table, playing etc (most of the time!) and is very advanced for her age. I have noticed that children who attended that creche dont seem to learn the same level of etiquette, like eating at the table... I may be wrong and it could be just the child... But the way I saw them having their dinner reinforces that view for me.

There are other options out there, saying there isnt around Belarmine is simply untrue. Believe me children would be way more happier somewhere else and parents more assured. Go with a smaller creche where there is small number of staff and one person running the place, no management somewhere else making the decision based on profit.

Lola92

I worked in Belarmine temping for a short while and I have been thinking about the events there a lot as a result. I actually can't understand how this could have happened - at every exit point from the garden there at least 2 gates to get through, 3 doors if you are coming in the main building entrance. Sparks maybe you could pm me and let me know where the kids actually exited from? i have been over it time and time again in my head and tbh its just not making sense.

lazygal

I've read some astonishingly strident defences of Giraffe and Links on here and other forums I won't name from parents and I don't understand it.


I've been haunted by this programme since I saw it. We have the Ikea chair the children in Little Harvard were left sitting in for two hours. Our child won't stay in it when she's finished eating, so I can't imagine what she'd be going through if she was forced to stay in the chair. The children trying to walk strapped into those little seats is like something from another time, I don't know how any adult could be in a room and let children try to walk with a chair strapped onto them. I'm not a very emotional person as a rule but I well up every time I think about those images. And my child would not be able to sleep on a mat, she's a shuffler when she sleeps and needs the boundaries of a cot - so to think she'd be forced onto a mat to sleep also makes the tears well up.

If I was paying the guts of a grand a month for a service that treated anyone like that, I'd be wondering where and when my child could be moved. Screw that, I don't care how 'happy' my child might appear, children might be 'happy' to stay up late every night on the playstation, that doesn't mean a responsible parent lets that happen.

Eddie2008

lazygal wrote: »

If I was paying the guts of a grand a month for a service that treated anyone like that, I'd be wondering where and when my child could be moved. Screw that, I don't care how 'happy' my child might appear, children might be 'happy' to stay up late every night on the playstation, that doesn't mean a responsible parent lets that happen.

You spot are on.

I sense that some parents are loyal to the staff, and some are probably good. But they are not the ones making the decisions or even in control. It isnt the staff that decide that children should be strapped in a chair while a carer gets food ready - they are told to do this by management in 'Head Office'. 'Head Office' are having a laugh? A corporate business caring for children? This whole thing has only proved this model is just wrong.

Are parents too proud to admit it they made an error in their decisions? I dunno, just baffled. I would just like to see these places go out of business, and not a cent going to those people in 'Head Office'.

bumper234

Eddie2008 wrote: »

You spot are on.


Are parents too proud to admit it they made an error in their decisions? I dunno, just baffled. I would just like to see these places go out of business, and not a cent going to those people in 'Head Office'.

And parents would do what then?

Eddie2008

bumper234 wrote: »

And parents would do what then?

Send your child to another creche or childminder that isnt a chain (business)? I think it was Sparks or something that said there wasnt any other choices in Stepaside/Sandyford. I live here and there is.

I feel quite emotional about this, and to be honest would love to see a blockade after what they have done.

It was mentioned that those who didnt send their kids to Giraffe shouldnt comment. I have experience of seeing my child in a small creche, and said to myself after this emerged 'thank God'. I ddnt have a sleepless night just relief. I plead to those funding the chain creche businesses to for God sake, pull them out and damage the businesses back pocket. They dont deserve to turn things round after whats been done. The workers will get employment elsewhere.

bumper234

Eddie2008 wrote: »

Send your child to another creche or childminder that isnt a chain (business)? I think it was Sparks or something that said there wasnt any other choices in Stepaside/Sandyford. I live here and there is.

I feel quite emotional about this, and to be honest would love to see a blockade after what they have done.

It was mentioned that those who didnt send their kids to Giraffe shouldnt comment. I have experience of seeing my child in a small creche, and said to myself after this emerged 'thank God'. I ddnt have a sleepless night just relief. I plead to those funding the chain creche businesses to for God sake, pull them out and damage the businesses back pocket. They dont deserve to turn things round after whats been done. The workers will get employment elsewhere.

Blockade who? Stop parents from taking their children into a crech? Stop workers from going into their jobs? Stop a business from running? Let me know what cell you end up in i will send you a cake with a file in it. How do you know the workers will get work elsewhere? Another chain? don't you want ALL chains closed down?

pwurple

I'm sure not ALL chains are bad, I'm a pure capitalist. I would heartily applaud a chain with a good honest ethos and decent training. No reason whatsoever that a chain can't be good.

But my goodness this Giraffe one has a fairly bad reputation at this stage.

I don't even live in Dublin and I had heard anecdotes about them. From people who worked there. Even from their suppliers. Stories about them being registered as a business outside of ireland for tax, and taking every govt incentive fund going. Paying as little as possible, working the staff to the bone and having huge expectations. I had a collegue who's wife was on stress leave from a giraffe creche.

Add that to the prime time thing.

And now throw in 1 year olds crossing a road with the staff oblivious to them being gone.

That's a lot of red flags for me for giving my custom to a business.

Eddie2008

bumper234 wrote: »

Blockade who? Stop parents from taking their children into a crech? Stop workers from going into their jobs? Stop a business from running? Let me know what cell you end up in i will send you a cake with a file in it. How do you know the workers will get work elsewhere? Another chain? don't you want ALL chains closed down?

I didnt mean go picketing outside ever chain creche, only dont give them the business. Put a stop to large scale corporate childcare and take the business elsewhere. Does your 'Mrs' work for Giraffe? My intention is not to offend staff, they would have to seek employment elsewhere - there are positions available, please refer to job websites.

bumper234

Eddie2008 wrote: »

I didnt mean go picketing outside ever chain creche, only dont give them the business. Put a stop to large scale corporate childcare and take the business elsewhere. Does your 'Mrs' work for Giraffe? My intention is not to offend staff, they would have to seek employment elsewhere - there are positions available, please refer to job websites.

Yes my Mrs works for Giraffe and i have never made a secret of this, I was also the one who posted up the story of these children getting out yesterday in this thread so please don't say i have any ulterior motives.

You say the staff would "have to seek employment elsewhere" but you are not talking about 10 or 20 people here you are talking HUNDREDS! Where are they going to go to? I'll tell you where...the next chain that comes along to fill the gap that you wish to create.

The little Mom and Pop family run creches that you envisage would be lovely but capitalism and reality prevails and you will always have chains so instead of calling for a culling of a business who have had problems in ONE out of 21 creches maybe you could come up with something more constructive.

Hannibal Smith

bumper234 wrote: »

Yes my Mrs works for Giraffe and i have never made a secret of this, I was also the one who posted up the story of these children getting out yesterday in this thread so please don't say i have any ulterior motives.

You say the staff would "have to seek employment elsewhere" but you are not talking about 10 or 20 people here you are talking HUNDREDS! Where are they going to go to? I'll tell you where...the next chain that comes along to fill the gap that you wish to create.

The little Mom and Pop family run creches that you envisage would be lovely but capitalism and reality prevails and you will always have chains so instead of calling for a culling of a business who have had problems in ONE out of 21 creches maybe you could come up with something more constructive.

Capitalism should not prevail over child safety. Loss of jobs is not a good enough reason to put children's welfare at stake.

bumper234

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Capitalism should not prevail over child safety. Loss of jobs is not a good enough reason to put children's welfare at stake.

I agree with you but on the other hand you cannot call for the picketing and closure of a business and the loss of hundreds of jobs because of a mistakes made by a few people in one branch!

Eddie2008

bumper234 wrote: »

Yes my Mrs works for Giraffe and i have never made a secret of this, I was also the one who posted up the story of these children getting out yesterday in this thread so please don't say i have any ulterior motives.

You say the staff would "have to seek employment elsewhere" but you are not talking about 10 or 20 people here you are talking HUNDREDS! Where are they going to go to? I'll tell you where...the next chain that comes along to fill the gap that you wish to create.

The little Mom and Pop family run creches that you envisage would be lovely but capitalism and reality prevails and you will always have chains so instead of calling for a culling of a business who have had problems in ONE out of 21 creches maybe you could come up with something more constructive.

Firstly, I think to be fair to you wife, it cant have been easy for her this last while. For that I am sympathetic.

I am generally capitalist in my views, but not when it comes to children. The fact is, the market will serve what people demand. If people demand and want smaller and safer creches the market will meet that demand. We dont NEED large chain creches - did they tell you that? I think Anglo said the same?!!

The little Mom and Pop creche would be lovely and thank you for agreeing - it is best.

Hannibal Smith

bumper234 wrote: »

I agree with you but on the other hand you cannot call for the picketing and closure of a business and the loss of hundreds of jobs because of a mistakes made by a few people in one branch!

I didn't call for anything. I dont know how it should be dealt with im not in the field so I dont know what solutions can be made. Is the footage on prime time and the subsequent escape of two children reason enough to shut it down? How majy strikes should it take? What are the levels of penalties open to the HSE?

But capitalism and job losses would be bottom of my list of priorities.

bumper234

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I didn't call for anything. I dont know how it should be dealt with im not in the field so I dont know what solutions can be made. Is the footage on prime time and the subsequent escape of two children reason enough to shut it down? How majy strikes should it take? What are the levels of penalties open to the HSE?

But capitalism and job losses would be bottom of my list of priorities.

I never said you did call for anything other posters itt did. Shut down that branch? Possibly a solution but not one i would advocate. but for others to call for the shutdown of the whole company is taking it a bit far imo

Hannibal Smith

bumper234 wrote: »

I never said you did call for anything other posters itt did. Shut down that branch? Possibly a solution but not one i would advocate. but for others to call for the shutdown of the whole company is taking it a bit far imo

Sorry, I misunderstood the general 'you' and took it literally

bumper234 wrote: »

I agree with you but on the other hand you cannot call for the picketing and closure of a business and the loss of hundreds of jobs because of a mistakes made by a few people in one branch!

It would depend. If the general model of practise and employee policy is the same in all Giraffe creches, then it should be shut down. If its a case that other giraffe branches weren't inspected as frequently and the 'faults' weren't picked up on because of that then its a strong case for closing them all down. If it's a case that the Belarmine branch is the only one, then I can't see why they could continue to generate business and would hope they would shut down on the back of that. Other than that the company should be heavily fined.

FunkSoulSista

There are creche reports up on Pobal for a few counties now: Cavan Clare Donegal Dublin Galway Limerick Longford Mayo Meath Offaly Roscommon Tipperary Westmeath Wicklow. I don't know if all creches are up for these counties, definitely not all for Dublin anyway.


http://maps.pobal.ie/#/Map

Click on HSE reports at top of screen

Neyite

I read my creches one. The inspection was done the month before my child joined and from what I can tell, anything pointed out on the report was implemented, but no major issues highlighted.