primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

hoodwinked

bumper234 wrote: »

I put this to my partner 3 years ago about having cctv /webcams in the rooms so parents could log in anytime and see the kids. As we got deeper into the discussion we also saw that it could probably never happen due to privacy/data protection laws but that's something for someone else to talk about as i have no knowledge of them.

we have this in some creches in Cork, i refused to send my daughter there because of this 'cctv' webcam access,


the one she is in now, is fantastic, i too like sparks collect her at random times on random days, and i have never once seen anything remotely negative never mind anything like the allegations made, she is very happy there, and loves going to 'school' so its important to remember not all creches are bad places, nor are all creche workers.

questions need to be asked of RTE, when did the reporter report this to the HSE and if she/he so much as waited a day, what will be done?
'
if i found out some reporter was in my daughters creche recording her without the consent of her dad or i, i would be livid, if it was a HSE worker not at all. it makes a big difference tbh

Orion

bumper234 wrote: »

I put this to my partner 3 years ago about having cctv /webcams in the rooms so parents could log in anytime and see the kids. As we got deeper into the discussion we also saw that it could probably never happen due to privacy/data protection laws but that's something for someone else to talk about as i have no knowledge of them.

There are some creches that have that. As far as I know as long as they're not secret cameras (and everyone concerned is actively made aware of them) and that the security is tight enough on them so that only authorised people (parents, management, etc) can view them then there's no issue with privacy/dp legislation.

Sparks

neris wrote: »

there are standard questions but they do also give their own personal opinions and put it down in writing that their personal views/opinions should be acted on

They can; it'd be a stupid process if they couldn't. But that's an optional extra, not the basic package.

Also, you can get the latest inspection report directly from the creche (and they're not allowed to edit it by law); or you can get the reports from the HSE (as there's an investigation ongoing you have to submit an FOI request for them). So I can get the information from the HSE, in full, on demand.

RTE, on the other hand, haven't even acknowledged receipt of the email I've sent them, let alone responded. They've not handed over the footage to the HSE yet so far as anyone knows. And they sure as feck did not get in touch with all the parents involved, they've left us twisting in the wind wondering what the hell is going on and honestly, this is the first time I've thought the phrase "intentional infliction of emotional distress" wasn't some made-up poncing about but an actual real thing. Those lovely people have put airing their programme and making their ad revenue ahead of the mental health of every parent with a kid in Belarmine, and that's just utterly wrong.

Orion

Macy0161 wrote: »

I don't disagree with this, but yet the reporter is being accused of various things unchecked?

Such as? Feel free to report any posts you feel may be problematic. This thread is being actively monitored by 3 mods, 1 admin and possibly Boards HQ as well - even then we might miss something that appears innocuous at first glance.

[edit]I see you have reported one - apologies. It's being discussed.

Macy0161

Orion wrote: »

Such as? Feel free to report any posts you feel may be problematic. This thread is being actively monitored by 3 mods, 1 admin and possibly Boards HQ as well - even then we might miss something that appears innocuous at first glance.

I have done (unless it didn't go through - it was my first ever reporting!), specifically post 20...

bumper234 wrote: »

The undercover reporter was in a room and supposed to be helping another educarer but was in fact not pulling her weight. This put the other educarer under undue stress as she was having to do more work.

I don't see these type of posts accusing the reporter of effectively creating the circumstances or breaching their duty of care as any different to posts that are getting modded accusing the companies of things.

Sparks

dub_skav wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification, still a new member of staff though.

I have worked with lots of qualified people over the years who were useless.

So, either the reporter was not doing their job properly and should not have had too much responsibility, or they were doing their job properly and not adding extra strain to the co-worker.

Hang on a moment. The specific complaints Giraffe have made about her (and they say they were beginning disciplinary actions over it and the management of the creche had already taken her aside to talk to her about it) were that: (a) she wouldn't change nappies in the room she was in; and
(b) she kept leaving that room and wandering around the creche.

In retrospect, those actions now seem to have a logical reason - had RTE filmed half-naked infants mid-change, legal would have had a heart attack; and she couldn't film the creche without wandering around.

But that does indicate that RTE had decided ahead of time that they would deliberately compromise the level of care to the children in that room in order to try to get footage for the show. This is why I don't trust RTE as far as I'd throw them - the HSE inspections don't put the kids at risk.


edit: Also, if changing nappies is beyond the ken of a FETAC-qualified childcare worker, I think FETAC have some pretty serious questions to be answering. I mean, us parents get a thirty-second training course from the nurse in the delivery ward and that's it - if that's not covered in a FETAC course...

josip

Orion wrote: »

This thread is being actively monitored by 3 mods, 1 admin and possibly Boards HQ as well

I'd kill for that level of oversight in our creche.

Orion

Broadsheet have this from an anonymous parent also:

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/22/the-prime-time-creche-sting-a-parent-writes/

Emmyt

Links have cameras in their rooms, not of access to the parents etc however gardai can easily check these to collaborate with rte's investigation.

dub_skav

Sparks wrote: »

Hang on a moment. The specific complaints Giraffe have made about her (and they say they were beginning disciplinary actions over it and the management of the creche had already taken her aside to talk to her about it) were that: (a) she wouldn't change nappies in the room she was in; and
(b) she kept leaving that room and wandering around the creche.

In retrospect, those actions now seem to have a logical reason - had RTE filmed half-naked infants mid-change, legal would have had a heart attack; and she couldn't film the creche without wandering around.

But that does indicate that RTE had decided ahead of time that they would deliberately compromise the level of care to the children in that room in order to try to get footage for the show. This is why I don't trust RTE as far as I'd throw them - the HSE inspections don't put the kids at risk.


edit: Also, if changing nappies is beyond the ken of a FETAC-qualified childcare worker, I think FETAC have some pretty serious questions to be answering. I mean, us parents get a thirty-second training course from the nurse in the delivery ward and that's it - if that's not covered in a FETAC course...

But that just backs up my problem. A new staff member who has no track record of delivering care to the standards required is left as one of only 2 carers in a room?
It seems to me that the creche was either shorthanded or careless.

I'm not trying to defend the reporter or RTE at all, but it is worrying to me that a brand new and (according to Giraffe's actions against her) unsuitable employee was left as 1 of 2 in charge of children.

Moonbeam

Fetac do actually teach you how to change babies nappy believe it or not:) and you have a practical in it too well the practical is 2 of 5 things bathing/changing/feeding/I forget the rest.


We do not know if the reporter has years of creche experience or not.

kdevitt

A family member is directly impacted - and they have seen the video as their child was verbally abused. I was told that there is more than just shouting at kids involved here though. Whether or not the parents give permission for that to be broadcast, or its taken any further, who knows.

Apprently the programme's initial remit was regarding the ratio of children to childcare workers being increased, which changed when the abuse was seen. If it was my child in there, I'd be giving RTE the plaudits they deserve for uncovering this.

Sparks

dub_skav wrote: »

But that just backs up my problem. A new staff member who has no track record of delivering care to the standards required is left as one of only 2 carers in a room?

That's not what they've told us (I've spent the guts of two hours over the last few days talking to them). They say she had FETAC quals and a background in childcare. The media seem to be reporting the same thing.

If I hired a programmer, I'd expect to be able to give them a programming task and while they might need orientation to our practices, they could do the actual core work already and wouldn't avoid it. I'd consider it reasonable therefore that if Giraffe hire someone with FETAC quals and a background in childcare that she'd change nappies and would know to stay in the room with the kids in her care. That seems basic enough to me to be considered a given.

None of which is really the point I'm angry at, which is the deliberate choice that reporter made to compromise the care of the kids in the room so she could get her footage. If it was your kid in there, would you be happy with that decision?

hoodwinked

kdevitt wrote: »

Apprently the programme's initial remit was regarding the ratio of children to childcare workers being increased, which changed when the abuse was seen. If it was my child in there, I'd be giving RTE the plaudits they deserve for uncovering this.

see i wouldn't, i would be asking questions like

a: why didn't the HSE pick this up? how can they improve their checks to make sure they do pick it up in future?

b: Why didn't RTE tell the parents/HSE sooner, if they had the childs interest at heart they would have put a stop to this sooner rather than let it continue until they could edit it...


if it wasn't leaked would those children still be there with the suspended workers still working there?

ameee

I know we don't know until its shown exactly how bad the treatment of the children was but im fairly surprised that people that have children there are being so quick to defend the place. Im all for innocent until proven guilty but im not so sure id go on the defensive if i was hearing such things about my daughters montessori. Out of curiosity i know both places i sent my children to had an open door policy so you could have peace of mind do giraffe do the same?

Sparks

ameee wrote: »

I know we don't know until its shown exactly how bad the treatment of the children was but im fairly surprised that people that have children there are being so quick to defend the place.

I'm not. I'm on my son's side. If there was something going on in there that we never saw, then RTE left it continue for three weeks in order to make money. I'm not sure if anyone thinks I should be grateful for that. I certainly don't. I'm angry and pissed off that RTE have come in, gotten everyone worked up thinking their kids were being beaten in the place, then refused to give the evidence they have to the HSE, who should have had it three weeks ago when RTE's reporter made the first complaint. They're also refusing to talk to parents involved - I've tried contacting them and they won't even acknowledge receipt of the email. Right now I have no idea if something's going on in the place and I still won't until we see the footage; and the HSE can't do anything until that full footage is given to them (30 second edited clips can't be used for anything but TV - if you think you can use them to bring legal charges or shut down a creche, you're mad).

Right now, from my point of view, Giraffe are desperately trying to protect their business and collect fee revenue, RTE are trying to desperately make a TV programme and collect ad revenue, and the only people whose job it is to protect my son - ie. Me, his mom and the HSE - are not even in the running, and we're getting to the point of picking out solicitors (and if you knew me, you'd know how far something would have to go before I'd even think of that route).

Out of curiosity i know both places i sent my children to had an open door policy so you could have peace of mind do giraffe do the same?

As in, here's the access code, walk in anytime? Yes. We've done that several times when I'd have time off work or whatever and we'd only leave him in for a few hours while we did the chores that build up or whatever (instead of strapping him into a buggy for an hour of shopping, ironically).

Quality

I wish we could get an RTE reporter to go to our primary schools and do an expose on them..

can you imagine,

a 33-1 ratio for 4 year olds

a child being expected to sit in their chairs for up to 4 hours

No health and safety reports after falls that would produce cuts and scratches.

---

I think a lot of these "exposes" are sensationalised, I think a snapshot of a day is being used to paint a bad picture.

LegacyUser

Sparks wrote: »

The HSE visits are not announced ahead of time. They might be scheduled with in the HSE, but the creche doesn't get advance notice.

The inspectors have a series of questions they must answer for their reports; the whole thing is standardised. It's not a case of wandering around for an hour and then giving their general impressions of the place.

Regular poster on the forum going unreg here for obvious reasons, I have no problem with contacting the mods if they wish regarding any of this.

As a former staff member of one of the creches in question, I can tell you that the creche had advance notice of the last HSE inspection. I don't know where the management got their information but all staff members were informed that it was scheduled for day X. The main issue that I had with the centre was the issue around ratios. I have seen others mention this, specifically around morning and evening times, where there is no shift overlap, and break and lunch times where there was frequently no staff cover, meaning the room was over ratio at these times. A couple of part time staff were employed for covering breaks but nowhere near enough to cope with the numbers of staff & children that needed extra support at these times. This is common in many other childcare centres that I have experience of, and would be by no means a problem specific to stepaside.

However, following the last inspection, the HSE were very happy with the setting, and said they were impressed with improvements made since previous inspections (under other management, from what I understand). The staff were praised liberally for their performance and from my memory, there were few if any misdemenors marked on the report.

My first reaction to reading this was shock and disbelief. My second was that something like this was inevitable. The world of fulltime carer is a damn tough one, even in a well run early years service. Any parent will tell you that it is tough going caring for a wobbler or toddler all day long. Well in childcare you are going to have that times five or six, presuming you are working under the correct ratios, and up to double that at times when you are left without cover. Especially when the support of a good manager or supervisor is not always available.

IN addition to the usual expected caring work involved with kids - feeding, changing, sleeping, entertaining, behaviour management - you are also expected to keep the room in immaculate condition, impliment strict cleaning rotas, paperwork, 10-15 observations per week, arts and craft and other educational activities, daily reports, weekly and monthly activity planners, medications, specific diets or allergies, liasing with parents, supporting them through changes in their childs life (new room, new sibling, family breakdown, new house, toilet training, sleep depriviation, weaning trouble, teething, minor health issues - you name it, we are supposed to be the expert) all while on constant damage control for wobblers & toddlers. God forbid a child in your care ends up with a small bump from playing and you need to fill in an accident report - they will be on top of you.

Would you do all of this for barely more than minimum wage? €9 an hour is what these carers are paid. There is little thanks given, long hours in less than ideal conditions. Are people really surprised that the level of staff turnover is so high? Childcare is a vocation, but even for the best, in an environment like this it is not surprising that so many people burn out and get frustrated with the corporate profit and PR obsessed aspect and leave.

That being said, most of the staff that I worked along side were competent and caring people, who had genuine affection for the children they worked with and in some cases a good bond with the parents and siblings also. It is them that I feel so angry for, because of the actions of a minority of people who couldn't care less about the job, they will be stuck with a bad reputation because of all this scandal.

mathie

Quality wrote: »

I think a lot of these "exposes" are sensationalised, I think a snapshot of a day is being used to paint a bad picture.

Their investigators should do the lotto because they've picked out two creches at random and found abuse.

Or do creches investigated that uncover no abuse not make it into this expose?

bumper234

mathie wrote: »

Their investigators should do the lotto because they've picked out two creches at random and found abuse.

Or do creches investigated that uncover no abuse not make it into this expose?

Probably plenty of this but as i stated earlier you could walk into any large organisation, film for 6 weeks and with careful editing make the place look like hell on earth.

And lol at RTE taking the moral high ground

2000

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rte-radio-chief-accused-of-bullying-26118875.html


2001

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rte-staff-demand-inquiry-after-indiscreet-executive-quits-26099281.html
2005

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bullying-claim-senior-rte-figure-fired-26213310.html



Too busy trying to kiss the next fat cats arse

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rte-editor-lambasts-staff-over-tweets-to-new-boss-26875381.html

josip

As reported by that pillar of Irish journalism, the Indo.

bumper234

josip wrote: »

As reported by that pillar of Irish journalism, the Indo.

You would prefer the Herald???:D

dub_skav

Sparks wrote: »

That's not what they've told us (I've spent the guts of two hours over the last few days talking to them). They say she had FETAC quals and a background in childcare. The media seem to be reporting the same thing.

If I hired a programmer, I'd expect to be able to give them a programming task and while they might need orientation to our practices, they could do the actual core work already and wouldn't avoid it. I'd consider it reasonable therefore that if Giraffe hire someone with FETAC quals and a background in childcare that she'd change nappies and would know to stay in the room with the kids in her care. That seems basic enough to me to be considered a given.

None of which is really the point I'm angry at, which is the deliberate choice that reporter made to compromise the care of the kids in the room so she could get her footage. If it was your kid in there, would you be happy with that decision?

I don't agree with you about qualifications and experience. You seem to imply that you can hire somebody based purely on CV and put them straight in to work without supervision or backup.
In my opinion they should work under a buddy system for their first few weeks, so you effectively have an extra staff member while they settle in / prove themselves.
It seems like giraffe either do not require this, or do not have the spare staff to implement it.

Kids are more important and more unpredictable than programming and I certainly wouldn't give an unproven / untested programmer an important job without somebody keeping an eye on them.
What it sounds like to me is that this person was given the role of a permanent and proven employee without any proof of ability.

In your example you have no idea why your programmer left their last job, maybe they were found out as rubbish.

Edit:I agree with you Sparks that RTE have not covered themselves in glory here and I would question their judgment if they have left children in a bad situation. However, this may have inadvertently exposed a gap in Giraffe hiring and assessment processes.

bumper234

dub_skav wrote: »

I don't agree with you about qualifications and experience. You seem to imply that you can hire somebody based purely on CV and put them straight in to work without supervision or backup.
In my opinion they should work under a buddy system for their first few weeks, so you effectively have an extra staff member while they settle in / prove themselves.
It seems like giraffe either do not require this, or do not have the spare staff to implement it.

Kids are more important and more unpredictable than programming and I certainly wouldn't give an unproven / untested programmer an important job without somebody keeping an eye on them.
What it sounds like to me is that this person was given the role of a permanent and proven employee without any proof of ability.

In your example you have no idea why your programmer left their last job, maybe they were found out as rubbish.

You make it sound like the investigator was only there for a couple of days instead of 6 weeks. Maybe she was the consummate professional for the first couple of weeks and only filmed in the room she worked and was then (because she knew she wasn't staying there) wandering around the creche and not doing her job?

Rose35

bumper234 wrote: »

Probably plenty of this but as i stated earlier you could walk into any large organisation, film for 6 weeks and with careful editing make the place look like hell on earth.

And lol at RTE taking the moral high ground

2000

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rte-radio-chief-accused-of-bullying-26118875.html


2001

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rte-staff-demand-inquiry-after-indiscreet-executive-quits-26099281.html
2005

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bullying-claim-senior-rte-figure-fired-26213310.html



Too busy trying to kiss the next fat cats arse

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rte-editor-lambasts-staff-over-tweets-to-new-boss-26875381.html

Whats this tit for tat about, we are talking about kids here and creches, very worrying to say the least to think what was going on ...

Mr.Fred

josip wrote: »

But I also see the difficult situations they have to manage on a daily basis and I know that I'd never be able to do what they do for half an hour, let alone day after day.

Then you clearly shouldn't do a job like this as should be the case for any carer out there if you can't handle the job especially one with children then leave and let someone better suited to take your position.

To many folks see these jobs as pay cheques and they should be shown the door sooner rather than later.

They really need to start clamping down on this considering the extortionate price of child care in this country.

josip

Mr.Fred wrote: »

Then you clearly shouldn't do a job like this as should be the case for any carer out there if you can't handle the job especially one with children then leave and let someone better suited to take your position.

To many folks see these jobs as pay cheques and they should be shown the door sooner rather than later.

They really need to start clamping down on this considering the extortionate price of child care in this country.

I don't work in childcare luckily for me and the children.
I always thought that childcare staff in the big chains weren't paid particularly well (I've heard €12 an hour mentioned). Your post implies that the high cost of childcare is purely due to the salaries of the minders. Have I misinterpreted it? If not, I would disagree.

bumper234

Rose35 wrote: »

Whats this tit for tat about, we are talking about kids here and creches, very worrying to say the least to think what was going on ...

Yes and if you read my earlier posts you will see that i have my own children in a giraffe creche. It's not tit for tat i am just saying that

A:We should wait to see the program (full unedited footage?) before tarring all staff with the same brush.

B:We should definitely not believe everything RTE are saying in regards to this as they have ulterior motives to (licensing, ad revenue).

C:See what the HSE and the Guards have to say about this bearing in mind that RTE have so far refused to release any footage to parents of the children, Giraffe or anyone else who has asked for it so they can sensationalize the build up to the show. Personally i would like to see the full unedited footage but i doubt that will ever happen.

Lola92

josip wrote: »

I don't work in childcare luckily for me and the children.
I always thought that childcare staff in the big chains weren't paid particularly well (I've heard €12 an hour mentioned). Your post implies that the high cost of childcare is purely due to the salaries of the minders. Have I misinterpreted it? If not, I would disagree.

In my experience, it ranges from minimum wage to €10 p/h, with €9 being the average.

See the Early Childhood Ireland Report on Salaries : http://www.earlychildhoodireland.ie/policy-advocacy-and-research/salary-survey-2012/

Rose35

bumper234 wrote: »

Yes and if you read my earlier posts you will see that i have my own children in a giraffe creche. It's not tit for tat i am just saying that

A:We should wait to see the program (full unedited footage?) before tarring all staff with the same brush.

B:We should definitely not believe everything RTE are saying in regards to this as they have ulterior motives to (licensing, ad revenue).

C:See what the HSE and the Guards have to say about this bearing in mind that RTE have so far refused to release any footage to parents of the children, Giraffe or anyone else who has asked for it so they can sensationalize the build up to the show. Personally i would like to see the full unedited footage but i doubt that will ever happen.

Well thankfully my child is not in that creche because if I heard anything like what was reported this morning, i would remove him immediately, i wouldnt be taking any chances regardless