primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

copacetic

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

I never said it was an excuse and neither did the creche.

Clearly this is a sensitive topic, just think people need to take a step back, take a deep breath and wait for the facts/info to come out before making decisions/judgements.

I think most people want to do that, but you have already 'decided' and posted 'facts' based on what you have been told by the vested interest?

Good to see this type of investigation being done, can only lead to higher standards. Worrying though if issues are found immediately with any type of investigation when missed by management, hse etc.

Superman4

My son, up until Monday attended Giraffe in Belarmine. I was contacted by a very distressed and disturbed parent who had seen the RTE footage and what she had witnessed was shocking. I promptly took my son out of this creche as I would never put him at risk. He may not have been in the room in question but this whole situation exposes the lack of leadership in this centre and the utter lack of care shown by the management team. How could this have gone unnoticed by them? Fact is they new this was happening and chose to ignore it. Suggestions that RTE are at fault is incredulous!! Look what happened in care homes for the elderly because of investigations like these? The real question is - how did an uncover reporter get to work in the centre in the first instance? Why did nobody complain about the reporters activities over the lengthy period she was there? Again, lack of leadership and duty of care to our children. Let me remind people that this is a very small creche and it would only take the managers 3 mins max to review every room. So my opinion is that from HQ down they knew this was happening and chose to turn a blind eye. This is afterall a business and about profitability and not the total welfare/care of our children. "Dismissing" the staff in question is not even going to mildly repair the damage done despite this being the overwhelming thought process of the team there..The real testament to all this is that having spoken to a total of 3 former employees their response is "about time.....". I personally have had no issue with any of the carers in the past however the utter lack of ownership and accountability of the management team has left me with no option but to walk away with the well-being of my son being the only matter of importance to me..

Sheep Shagger

In the case of Belemine, i'm not quite sure what else management could have done given they only saw the footage today. You can't sack someone without evidence, they put a supervisor in when the first complaint (from the RTE person) was received.

What about the Gardai and HSE in all this? - they are giving each creche 3 months to respond, surely if it was 'that' bad they would shut the place down immediately?

RTE should have showed this footage earlier to each creche in my opinion - the sooner it gets to air the better, then people can make up their own minds. Not sure if a post on a previous page where Today FM said the screening has been delayed is true or not.

Snabe

i do agree that 3 months to respond is ridiculous.

links saw the footage yesterday morning, not sure why giraffe only saw it today, wonder why the delay?? links told me yesterday that the footage has been handed to the gardai.

i hope they don't pull the broadcast, the parents with children in the creches need to see it.

Jkh

Hi,
A colleague of mine worked in the belermine crèche 3 years ago, and left after 5 weeks as she was left on her own to look after twelve 18 month old's .
On a family members advice she reported the crèche!

Superman4

Why would the "footage" be handed to the Gardai if there was no serious allegations? Clearly someone felt that what they saw was worthy of police involvement. If what one witness told me was true then police must be involved and management at the centre and HQ held responsible. There will be no closure on this for parents such as myself until Prime Time is aired. RTE have a responsibility to show this given current media attention so that parents can make informed and educated decisions as to their childs welfare (I personally was not prepared to expose my son to any potential or alleged malpractice).

tiny_penguin

I would be worried about how RTE edit the footage if it is aired. It should be shown in its entirety to parents in the creches involved to ensure full context is seen. That is what the parents of the children involved and all with children in the creches deserve.

RTE should have handed it over to the garda and hse after the first incident was witnessed and not after 6 weeks worth of footage was gathered and put together for a TV - it is only in the past 2 days the footage has gone to the authorities and I think that is disgraceful.

Snabe

Agreed re waiting before handing over the footage, tiny penguin.

But not sure what you mean by editing. Even if this was a couple of short incidents in that 6 week timeframe, it's still too much for me. I would presume that rte will edit it correctly and will present the dates etc that the clips were filmed. Especially as there is now HSE and Garda involvement

tiny_penguin

Snabe wrote: »

Agreed re waiting before handing over the footage, tiny penguin.

But not sure what you mean by editing. Even if this was a couple of short incidents in that 6 week timeframe, it's still too much for me. I would presume that rte will edit it correctly and will present the dates etc that the clips were filmed. Especially as there is now HSE and Garda involvement

I wouldn't presume anything. RTE have already acted immorally this far and why would they stop. They are out to make good tv and sell ad space. They may do it the right way but at this point the investigation is in the hands of the authorities and they can play it up as much as they want.

Not defending the crèches involved at all but I think making a tv show like this is not the way to go.

Macy0161

Would it get the publicity or the apparent action if rte hadn't handled it this way? Without the media support/ interest it would just get brushed under the carpet.

Cienciano

I know if it was my child, there's not a chance I'd be letting RTE show my childs face in the footage. They have some cheek not consulting parents over it, but asking to allow the childrens faces to be shown to maximise the impact of the show

Nordieboy

As mentioned before by numerous posters, this is not 'news'. It seems to have been going on for a long period of time. my own experience 18 months ago.
Blaming the investigator is simply ignoring the problem.
Ex staff, ex customers and others in the industry are posting on here their experiences. I'm notsure if the lack of belief is just the fact that parents can't believe what's been going on, or whether its blindness through guilt.
This evenings Herald listed - strapping into chairs, pinning heads to floors to force children to sleep, covering heads with blankets.
I'm thankful we took our son out of there but I'm sick to my stomach thinking of what may have gone on.

Snabe

the HSE inspection reports and information regarding complaints made about any creche should be publicly available without charge. On Tuesday I asked for copies of the inspection reports and information on any complaints made about a couple of creches that we had considered for our child after this scandal came out and was told I'd need to make a FOI request and there would be a charge attached to that. All I want them for is to make sure I put my child in the care of someone who is competent and caring.
Having said that though, if HSE visits are actually known or suspected then of course the staff are going to behave. I am so relieved that this had been brought to light; no matter how underhanded people think the gathering of this information was, it's for the greater good.

Nordieboy I feel the same, have felt sick ever since I heard about this.

I get what you're saying tiny penguin, but footage is footage and if it shows anyone making a baby lie down using force and shouting in that baby's face, then that is evidence of mistreatment no matter how you dress it up.

bumper234

Cienciano wrote: »

I know if it was my child, there's not a chance I'd be letting RTE show my childs face in the footage. They have some cheek not consulting parents over it, but asking to allow the childrens faces to be shown to maximise the impact of the show

What i would like to know is how did RTE manage to get the private phone numbers of parents who had children in this creche (i know of two parents contacted who did not have children in the room where the alleged mistreatment took place). Surely this is a breach of privacy and against the data protection acts? Also sickening to see Eammon Gilmore ET AL wringing their hands on TV in the Dail saying how terrible this is when the cuts they are making every month is doing way more damage to families [\rant]:mad:

Macy0161

Snabe wrote: »

the HSE inspection reports and information regarding complaints made about any creche should be publicly available without charge. On Tuesday I asked for copies of the inspection reports and information on any complaints made about a couple of creches that we had considered for our child after this scandal came out and was told I'd need to make a FOI request and there would be a charge attached to that. All I want them for is to make sure I put my child in the care of someone who is competent and caring.

Additionally, because of threats of legal action, it's always been hard to find out information about these big operations by anything other than word of mouth. We had our own experiences that lead us to leave a creche when the children were younger, but if I named the firm there'd be a mod edit with that deleted out. Hopefully this whole thing will be the catalyst for the people running these operations to properly stick to the laws and rules around childcare, and lead to greater oversight by those charged with ensuring that these environments are safe for children. You can come up with any excuse you like, but problems with ratio's are nothing to do with a few bad apples.

Criticising RTE or the undercover reporter is really shooting the messenger to me. Seriously, would those so upset by the underhand operation really prefer to be in blissful ignorance about what was going on?

Orion

Macy0161 wrote: »

Criticising RTE or the undercover reporter is really shooting the messenger to me. Seriously, would those so upset by the underhand operation really prefer to be in blissful ignorance about what was going on?

There are two separate issues. The creches need to be investigated obviously and that's the HSE's function. To perform this function they need all relevant information available and that's where RTE acted like the worst tabloid.

RTE have shown a blatant disregard for the rights and privacy of the children and parents in this matter both in the way they undertook their investigation and their actions afterwards. Not disclosing to the HSE that 1) the person making the report was a journalist and 2) that they had video footage of the alleged mistreatment is criminally negligent in my opinion and should be investigated by the police for impeding a HSE investigation. That's not shooting the messenger - that's demanding that RTE are accountable for their disgraceful mistreatment on their own part.

How Strange

+1 Orion

I completely agree. I think if I was a parent of one of those babies that's what I would find the most upsetting.

While RTE may have uncovered this treatmentin an undercover operation its subsequent behaviour has been disgraceful and they have put the story ahead of the welfare of children.

ezra_pound

Sparks wrote: »

My son's in the Belarmine creche in the report.
Yes, I asked those questions too - and then thought "Hang on. He's never been unhappy when we picked him up or dropped him off and we do that at almost random times thanks to work so they can't easily fake it; he loves the girls looking after him and reaches for them every day when I drop him off; he's never shown any signs whatsoever of neglect or abuse in the ten months he's been in there; and the one and only time he ever seemed unhappy was when his carers changed because of maternity leave and then the staff moved him to a room with one of his other carers the same day we mentioned it without any sort of fuss".

On the other hand, I've seen the RTE Primetime team report on shooting before and was so disgusted with their standards that I filed a formal complaint with the broadcasting standards people over it; and their record in other cases is a matter of public record.

If there is a problem in the creche, it's not RTE I'd want to have investigate it - it's the HSE, who do investigate these places regularly.


In principle yes, but there's an issue here over duty of care.
If RTE make these programmes, they don't act like they have a duty of care to the people in them. If they did, they'd have immediately reported to the HSE that there was an issue in the creche and handed over the footage they had - instead they made a report through this reporter without stating they were RTE, didn't mention the video footage let alone hand it over, and kept on filming for weeks afterwards.

Frankly, I don't want to be left alone in a room with that "reporter" right now - she filmed kids being abused (or at least that's what RTE say she filmed, I've asked to see the footage as a parent of one of the kids in the creche and they've not even responded let alone shown me the film). Didn't stop it, didn't intervene, just filmed so they could make a tv show and sell ads.

That's not duty of care to anyone or anything but their own profit, and I don't trust them as far as I could throw them. I don't trust the Giraffe company either. The carers I know, I trust; and my son's condition I observe directly. And if you're wondering whose side I'm on, it's his - not the side of Giraffe's profits and not the side of RTE's profits.

Creche has duty of care to children in its care. RTE does not.

It would appear that the creche in question has seriously breached that duty.

RTE exposed this failure in its duty. As childrens welfare was involved it appears as if it notified the relevant authorities.

I think you're pretty clearly biased.

Orion

ezra_pound wrote: »

Creche has duty of care to children in its care. RTE does not.

Actually the reporter was hired as a care worker so she (and her secret employer RTE) did have a duty of care to the children which she was negligent in also.

Sparks

bumper234 wrote: »

What i would like to know is how did RTE manage to get the private phone numbers of parents who had children in this creche

Were their numbers ex-directory?

Sparks

ezra_pound wrote: »

Creche has duty of care to children in its care. RTE does not.

Damn right, and they've acted like it.

It would appear that the creche in question has seriously breached that duty.
RTE exposed this failure in its duty. As childrens welfare was involved it appears as if it notified the relevant authorities.

Yup, lots of appearances. And lots of us worried. And no actual facts, because RTE wouldn't release them.

I think you're pretty clearly biased.

Damn right I am, I have a child in that creche, I am completely biased towards him.

Macy0161

Orion wrote: »

Actually the reporter was hired as a care worker so she (and her secret employer RTE) did have a duty of care to the children which she was negligent in also.

Reporter, or a care worker(s) who agreed to film? There is a difference.

I haven't seen the footage or the seen the report to know whether she raised her concerns at the time. Often in these type of stings, the failure to take seriously issues raised is part of the failings exposed. The worker could also have agreed to take part because of a failure of the companies/ HSE to deal with past complaints, for all I know, so in that context gathering evidence would be legitmate.

I'd rather wait and see the programme than make assumptions, largely based on what vested interests would have us believe about the persons, and RTE's, actions.

doubletrouble?

dont know if it's still being aired. conflicting reports between here and the media.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/concern-mistreatment-claims-113123657.html#23u51Gg

again this thread raises the issue on these types of reports/ probes and who's right and wrong
is the undercover reporter who's trying to find dirt/ truth right or wrong. as we all know news sells ,dirt gets attention. now the fact this is out in the open and if it is aired R.T.E. will have what they want. viewers and more importantly for them ratings. she deceived the creches . but yet shes supposedly exposed alot of stuff.
but then other sides will see dirty tricks in the way it was carried out. these type of exposures go on all the time. reporters pretending to be people they're not. whether it's at home, in the creche or wherever it may be our children are being looked after, there is one thing we'd love to see and thats what goes on when we the parents are not around. even in our own house we'd love to see what the childminder does. after all these little bundles are the most precious thing any parent can have.
yes it's dirty tricks, the creches were probably conned but if my child was in one of those creches and if it was proven about the allegations then i wouldn't have a problem.
where i work there are spies everywhere watching my every move. so i have to be careful all of the time, not some of the time.

lazygal

I think people are shooting the messenger. The main duty of care falls with the management, who clearly didn't know undercover filming was going on and that a staff member was perhaps neglecting care duties because they were filming.

What I know of these creches is that the attitude comes from the management, not RTE, parents or anyone else. As I said, I've heard anecdotes (from working in the business of child education its a small world and things get around) from staff and parents of the two chains, and when I was on the lookout for childcare, I didn't rate them as providing the care I'd be happy for my child to have.

I understand parents might get defensive about their creches if they are part of the chain, that's their right. But blaming RTE for a poor standard of care and forewarned inspections is missing the point. I never, ever got notice of an inspection, not once.

bumper234

Sparks wrote: »

Were their numbers ex-directory?

1 Does not matter you are entitled to privacy and even if they were not ex-directory the RTE researchers would have still had to find out the names of the childrens parents somehow.

2 Both of the parents i have been in contact with were both called while in work on their mobiles (one took the call and the other got a voice mail)

Orion

Macy0161 wrote: »

Reporter, or a care worker(s) who agreed to film? There is a difference.

She was an RTE reporter. She took the job to film not the other way around.

Macy0161

bumper234 wrote: »

1 Does not matter you are entitled to privacy and even if they were not ex-directory the RTE researchers would have still had to find out the names of the childrens parents somehow.

2 Both of the parents i have been in contact with were both called while in work on their mobiles (one took the call and the other got a voice mail)

And if they'd gone ahead without contacting the parents? Personally, I'd rather be contacted directly, if the alternative was going through the companies involved for them to put their own spin on things.

Orion

lazygal wrote: »

But blaming RTE for a poor standard of care and forewarned inspections is missing the point. I never, ever got notice of an inspection, not once.

I'm not blaming RTE for a poor standard of care in the creches - that's on the creches.

I'm blaming RTE for a blatant disregard of the privacy, rights and mental wellbeing of the parents who had children in the creche. Their actions from the time the journalist made the first report to the HSE have been nothing less than reprehensible imo. Refusing to show the HSE, creches and parents the footage until they were forced to is disgraceful. As I said earlier it's the worst form of tabloid journalism - they have put their own bottom line ahead of children's and parent's welfare. Saying "in the public interest" does not absolve them from ethics and morals.

bumper234

Macy0161 wrote: »

And if they'd gone ahead without contacting the parents? Personally, I'd rather be contacted directly, if the alternative was going through the companies involved for them to put their own spin on things.

So your child is in a creche, An incident happens in that creche but not in the same room that your child is in. You think it's ok for a reporter/researcher to call you up and start asking you questions about the incidents and the creche in general? Would you not even for one second ask yourself how these people got your name and private mobile number?

lazygal

bumper234 wrote: »

So your child is in a creche, An incident happens in that creche but not in the same room that your child is in. You think it's ok for a reporter/researcher to call you up and start asking you questions about the incidents and the creche in general? Would you not even for one second ask yourself how these people got your name and private mobile number?

TBH I'd be focused 100% on my child and her welbeing. Analysing the ins and outs of how someone got my phone number would be a much lower priority.