primetime 27-5-13 creche expose [read mod notes in post #4 and #434]

bumper234

lazygal wrote: »

TBH I'd be focused 100% on my child and her welbeing. Analysing the ins and outs of how someone got my phone number would be a much lower priority.

Do you have children in any of the creches run by any of the companies involved? If so have you ever got the feeling that your child was not happy? As has been stated here already none of us have ever got the sense that children were not happy or were being mistreated and in fact have turned up at the creches at many different times of the day unannounced to see nothing but happy children. Until i see the footage i am going to take this to be what they seem to be. A couple of mistakes made by an employee that is being blown out of proportion by RTE who don't forget also have their motives (ad revenue) for publicizing/sensationalizing this.

ezra_pound

Orion wrote: »

I'm not blaming RTE for a poor standard of care in the creches - that's on the creches.

I'm blaming RTE for a blatant disregard of the privacy, rights and mental wellbeing of the parents who had children in the creche. Their actions from the time the journalist made the first report to the HSE have been nothing less than reprehensible imo. Refusing to show the HSE, creches and parents the footage until they were forced to is disgraceful. As I said earlier it's the worst form of tabloid journalism - they have put their own bottom line ahead of children's and parent's welfare. Saying "in the public interest" does not absolve them from ethics and morals.

Yes but legally establishing that such a duty of care exists - between RTE and the parents is a bit of a long shot to say the least. On the other hand establishing duty of care between creche and children...

dub_skav

If my kids were in the creches involved, my anger would be directed at, in this order:

Carers directly involved
Creche Management
HSE
RTE / reporter

I can understand people being angry at RTE to some extent, but I would put that on the back burner and find out exactly what they have uncovered and how much of it is ongoing, e.g. if what I have read here about ratios in giraffe not being adhered to, that would be an ongoing widespread issue as opposed to one employee

dub_skav

bumper234 wrote: »

Do you have children in any of the creches run by any of the companies involved? If so have you ever got the feeling that your child was not happy? As has been stated here already none of us have ever got the sense that children were not happy or were being mistreated and in fact have turned up at the creches at many different times of the day unannounced to see nothing but happy children. Until i see the footage i am going to take this to be what they seem to be. A couple of mistakes made by an employee that is being blown out of proportion by RTE who don't forget also have their motives (ad revenue) for publicizing/sensationalizing this.

as a simple example, children might be perfectly happy playing away in a ratio of 1 adult to 8 babies. However, that is not safe.
Maybe, they have bad policies for the next age group up from your baby so you don't see them, maybe your baby is an easy baby to mind.

We do need to see the show / footage, but I wouldn't be assuming the best form the creche involved.
I might think the best of my favourite restaurant if my experiences differed from a reporter's, but my dinner is a lot less precious than my baby.

lazygal

bumper234 wrote: »

Do you have children in any of the creches run by any of the companies involved? If so have you ever got the feeling that your child was not happy? As has been stated here already none of us have ever got the sense that children were not happy or were being mistreated and in fact have turned up at the creches at many different times of the day unannounced to see nothing but happy children. Until i see the footage i am going to take this to be what they seem to be. A couple of mistakes made by an employee that is being blown out of proportion by RTE who don't forget also have their motives (ad revenue) for publicizing/sensationalizing this.

No, I don't have my child in a creche. As I stated, I worked in this industry and heard too many stories from ex staff of Links and Giraffe to make me confident of placing a child in their care. When others asked me, I told them what I knew, some of which came direct from parents who were very unhappy, especially when a 'good' creche was taken over by one or ther other.

You don't get to 'make mistakes' in child care. There are copious rules and regulations, and I never got advance notice of HSE inspections, plus I didn't want to be able to feel I could 'make mistakes'. Taking care of children is not the place for an 'everyone makes mistakes' attitude.

[mod snip - unsubstantiated allegation]

bumper234

dub_skav wrote: »

as a simple example, children might be perfectly happy playing away in a ratio of 1 adult to 8 babies. However, that is not safe.
Maybe, they have bad policies for the next age group up from your baby so you don't see them, maybe your baby is an easy baby to mind.

We do need to see the show / footage, but I wouldn't be assuming the best form the creche involved.
I might think the best of my favourite restaurant if my experiences differed from a reporter's, but my dinner is a lot less precious than my baby.

Agreed that the ratio subject is serious and i would like to hear Giraffes take on this but people are saying RTE reporter should not be taken to task is silly. Creche hired her as a carer, She left the room (many times?) to film around the creche therefore CREATING a ratio issue and putting children in danger but no one can see this?

Sheep Shagger

[mod snip - no source for this allegation]

Seems there is 11 minutes footage that will be aired out of 20 hours worth that was actually recorded.

lazygal

bumper234 wrote: »

Agreed that the ratio subject is serious and i would like to hear Giraffes take on this but people are saying RTE reporter should not be taken to task is silly. Creche hired her as a carer, She left the room (many times?) to film around the creche therefore CREATING a ratio issue and putting children in danger but no one can see this?

I see that as a managment failing. Did they not wonder what a staff member was doing, leaving children unattended, or did they know ratios weren't being adhered to? How is that NOT a problem of the creche's making?

bumper234

lazygal wrote: »

No, I don't have my child in a creche. As I stated, I worked in this industry and heard too many stories from ex staff of Links and Giraffe to make me confident of placing a child in their care. When others asked me, I told them what I knew, some of which came direct from parents who were very unhappy, especially when a 'good' creche was taken over by one or ther other.

You don't get to 'make mistakes' in child care. There are copious rules and regulations, and I never got advance notice of HSE inspections, plus I didn't want to be able to feel I could 'make mistakes'. Taking care of children is not the place for an 'everyone makes mistakes' attitude. [mod snip - quoting unsubstantiated allegation]

You make these statements but have no 1st hand knowledge of working for either of these companies you just go along with unsubstantiated allegations, rumour and hearsay? Maybe you would be better off getting FACTS before listening to idle gossip.

bumper234

lazygal wrote: »

I see that as a managment failing. Did they not wonder what a staff member was doing, leaving children unattended, or did they know ratios weren't being adhered to? How is that NOT a problem of the creche's making?

I agree and if you read the whole thread you will see it mentioned that the staff member was on a fast track to being sacked but unfortunately due to our you know labour laws and stuff you have to go through a whole process of warnings, written warnings and such before you can just dump someone out of a job. Shocking aint it:rolleyes:

lazygal

bumper234 wrote: »

You make these statements but have no 1st hand knowledge of working for either of these companies you just go along with unsubstantiated allegations, rumour and hearsay? Maybe you would be better off getting FACTS before listening to idle gossip.

I listened to 'gossip' or whatever you call it from too many parents and ex staff to be happy sending my child in to be cared for by either chain. If you're happy with the creche and want to focus on RTE and the report, rather than the allegations, that's up to you. As I said, I worked in the industry and its a very small pool of staff, providers and interest groups. Word gets around. Is one or two stories a reliable gauge of the quality of a service? No. Are dozens of them? Well, they'd made me think twice.

You don't have to justify your child care choices to me or anybody else, and if your problem is with RTE, that's up to you to deal with. Me, if I had a problem with my child care, no matter how it came to light, shooting the messenger wouldn't be what I'd be posting about, I'd be worrying about my child and dealing with ancillary concerns about privacy much later down the road.

deisemum

Is it known if the reporter/childcare worker worked in all 3 creches in the report?

Nordieboy

Bumper - Ever thought of putting down the shotgun? You must be getting tired of having a go at every one that posts who doesn't agree with your line of thinking.
I know you have been upfront regarding your biased opinions of Giraffe and the reasons for them.
I must say that if I felt someone was attacking my wife I'd probably do the same, but no-one is attacking your wife for working as a manager in Giraffe, or you for having your children in their creche.

Lazygal, Macy, Rose and Dubskav are all entitled to their opinions, as are you, but seriously your bias is more than showing.

Everyone is expressing their concerns and feelings, which given the situation is more than justified. I'm beginning to suspect that your bias may have stronger roots than you say. I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you here, just questioning the validity of your said bias.

bumper234

Nordieboy wrote: »

Bumper - Ever thought of putting down the shotgun? You must be getting tired of having a go at every one that posts who doesn't agree with your line of thinking.
I know you have been upfront regarding your biased opinions of Giraffe and the reasons for them.
I must say that if I felt someone was attacking my wife I'd probably do the same, but no-one is attacking your wife for working as a manager in Giraffe, or you for having your children in their creche.

Actually this is where you are wrong as she is being verbally abused by parents over this so yes i do have strong feelings over this. Not because she is employed by Giraffe but because i know she passionately cares abut the children in her care. Giraffe staff have been told not to wear their uniform/cover it up when out in public as two members of staff have been spat on in the last 2 days!

Nordieboy wrote: »

Lazygal, Macy, Rose and Dubskav are all entitled to their opinions, as are you, but seriously your bias is more than showing.

Everyone is expressing their concerns and feelings, which given the situation is more than justified. I'm beginning to suspect that your bias may have stronger roots than you say. I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you here, just questioning the validity of your said bias.

Again the only "bias" i have is toward the safety of my partner and i have already stated that if any mod wishes to verify that i have no ties to Giraffe personally then i can prove this in seconds by emailing them from my work email address which has 0 connection to childcare.

Nordieboy

I accept what you are saying regarding your wife, but no one here is attacking her.

The bias everyone here is showing is towards their children, be it from the perspective of what has happened in the creches or from the perspective of RTE's reporting standards.

If you read back through the chain of posts, you'll see that whilst everyone is exchanging and commenting on everyone's views, you are the only one commenting on everyone's posts that disagree with you.

Macy0161

bumper234 wrote: »

So your child is in a creche, An incident happens in that creche but not in the same room that your child is in. You think it's ok for a reporter/researcher to call you up and start asking you questions about the incidents and the creche in general? Would you not even for one second ask yourself how these people got your name and private mobile number?

No, I'd be more concerned if there were issues at the creche. Data protection would be way down the list to be honest.

Just because my children were happy, doesn't mean that there aren't issues. A child could be happy in an unsafe ratio. They might be happy messing around in a chair all day. That doesn't mean its safe or appropriate, or even if it is it might not necessarily be the curriculum that parents are paying big money on the basis of the creche doing.

Failure to adhere to staff ratios was the main reason we left one of the other large chains. There is zero reason for not maintaining staffing ratios - it's either poor organisation on the managements part, or cost saving.

As for labour laws now being the excuse - workers have much reduced rights if there under a year, and no entitlement to even statuatory notice if there under 13 weeks. So it's RTE's, the Reporters, the tabloid press, data protection, the labour laws - are the actual companies going to take any responsibility soon?

Phibsboro

Have to say I am astonished at the "shoot the messenger" attitude some people are taking in this thread. My first concern would be for my child and the care they are receiving - I would welcome any input that showed my child was not being cared for properly. Having said that, I think RTE need to handle the fallout from the leak better - I think they should try to call an open meeting of parents over the weekend, possibly with the co-operation of the creches involved.

Aside from that, just a note to remind people who may have joined the thread half way in that Bumper234's partner is a Giraffe manager (he made this clear in his first post but obviously some may have missed that).

josip

Can anyone confirm whether the programme will air or not next Monday as originally indicated?

Sheep Shagger

bumper234 wrote: »

Giraffe staff have been told not to wear their uniform/cover it up when out in public as two members of staff have been spat on in the last 2 days!

This is disgusting and quite sad.

Crumpet

I understand where Bumper324 is coming from, although I don't have a partner or anyone close to me working in Giraffe, but my 22 month old baby goes to one of their centres. I'm upset, concerned and stressed about this, and really the seed has been planted now and I have spent the last few days in work, wondering how my LO is getting on by himself all day in that creche. BUT I think it's important to remember that this was just, allegedly, the actions of - in Giraffe's case - ONE member of staff. Personally speaking, I find it appalling that carers could be spat on, as Bumper324 seems to be saying! So many of them in our centre, are lovely, caring girls that my son got to love so much. I have the utmost respect for what they do (couldn't do it myself!!) and it would never cross my mind to take it out on them in such a way. Especially without having seen the footage.

Calhoun

Crumpet wrote: »

I understand where Bumper324 is coming from, although I don't have a partner or anyone close to me working in Giraffe, but my 22 month old baby goes to one of their centres. I'm upset, concerned and stressed about this, and really the seed has been planted now and I have spent the last few days in work, wondering how my LO is getting on by himself all day in that creche. BUT I think it's important to remember that this was just, allegedly, the actions of - in Giraffe's case - ONE member of staff (I'm going to include any management issues here). Personally speaking, I find it appalling that carers could be spat on, as Bumper324 seems to be saying! So many of them in our centre, are lovely, caring girls that my son got to love so much. I have the utmost respect for what they do (couldn't do it myself!!) and it would never cross my mind to take it out on them in such a way. Especially without having seen the footage.

I understand to a point of where he is coming from but there is a huge amount of bias coming through, something doesnt smell right when you try and turn around and point the blame at the broadcaster. Yes RTE probably do have allot to answer for but that doesnt remove any fault from Giraffe (if there is a case to answer for).

There were also points brought up about not using guards ect again because of bad service but i think a key thing missing from this line of conversation is Giraffe are a private service being paid for by parents. Its irrelvant what the staff get paid as the overall cost is quite high.

I really do hope that for the sake of the company the documentuary isnt as bad or sensationalist as has been made out, they have been really driving the positive PR over the past day or so with their customers and the goodwill could turn bad if it seems like they have been covering their ass to much.

mrsqueen

I have worked in creches in Dublin for a good while now, and I am sad to say it's not an issue of Giraffe only. No creche is safe, even the newest one with fancy rooms and resources. There are many other creches that pose many many problems. I have raised my concerns to HSE and got no answer. I have seen many examples of bad practices; accidents that happened because of poor safety measures, and then handled awfully, lying to the parents about the causes, and not getting doctors involved when it was needed. I have seen many managers lying about number of students to get more money for the ECCE program. Most of the staff are under qualified and have no interest in the care of the children. I know there are important exceptions, and there are some rare wonderful carers. But, from my experience, creches in Dublin are quite a scam. They charge parents way beyond what they should, paying the staff minimum wages, so all the managers are after is making money.

I am so so happy that it all is finally coming to light. Mr. John Lonegan said in front of the Children's Minister that "creches in Dublin were run like Mickey Mouse clubs". If he meant that they were run only in a ludicrous way, prioritizing it above anything else -whether it be children's safety, welfare or educational development- then Mr. Lonegan was very right.

Postgrad10

It's not possible to lie about numbers in the ECCE scheme, pps numbers are required from each eligible child.

mrsqueen

Yes, but how about including children under the scheme when they are not in the creche for those days and hours? Managers get a lot of PPS numbers from children and they play with them as they please.

lazygal

Yes, I've heard of massaging of ECCE numbers, children who only attend for one or two days being registered for five days, children who register with the service and then move/leave being kept on the books, that sort of thing.

Sparks

Calhoun wrote: »

Yes RTE probably do have allot to answer for but that doesnt remove any fault from Giraffe (if there is a case to answer for).

Can someone explain to me the idea that we can only be angry at RTE or at Giraffe?
Is this a football match with two sides or something?

Because honestly, if the two of them both did wrong, I have zero problem in being angry at both of them.

We know today that RTE did things wrong. Forget what Giraffe are saying (though that's bad enough) - the HSE say the complaints made were anonymous, and no video footage was provided. That's wrong. Plain and simple. And someone needs a slap for it.

We may know tomorrow or the next day that Giraffe did wrong (today we very strongly suspect there's a problem but nobody knows the actual facts, thanks in large part to RTE not releasing footage) -- if and when we do know, we're going to want them given slaps as well.



What I want right now is that the footage be shown to any parent in the creches involved that want to see it (and I don't mean edited clips either); that the complaints made by the parents who saw those clips to the Gardai be followed up on and that the full footage be released to them and the HSE (which seems to have happened) and that a full investigation take place and the results be made known publicly and that the HSE oversees the creche if they keep it open or that they close it down. And any carer or manager who did something wrong should be crucified for it.

And I also want RTE crucified for (a) deciding to make a film about a problem in a creche instead of passing on their concerns to the HSE (it's not like it's hard - pick up the phone and dial 0128221122 and ask for the early years investigator); (b) then exacerbating the situation in the creche and putting more kids at risk by their reporting methods; (c) ignoring requests from parents involved in all this; (d) making anonymous reports and continuing to film for several weeks instead of making formal complaints with supporting video footage.

If RTE had acted as if the safety and care of the children were their priority (or, as the rest of us call it, basic human decency), we would already be in the middle of a formal HSE investigation, people would have been suspended weeks ago (presumably), kids wouldn't have had weeks of compromised care, and parents wouldn't have been driven out of their minds finding out that there was a problem through the rumour mill and the front page of the Herald. But had they done that, RTE wouldn't have made much money I suppose.


There's more than enough nails around to crucify both RTE and Giraffe. I don't see why we need to choose only one of two parties to punish. Life's more complicated than that.

dub_skav

By anonymously reporting incidents rte may have (unintentionally) highlighted problems with hse procedures.

If it takes a reporter with video footage for the hse to sit up and take notice i would be very worried.
Surely staff reporting breaches/abuse would do it anonymously, so the fact the complaints were made anonymously should not be an excuse for hse.

As you say though, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Rte could say they followed the only avenue open to normal people. However, when this did not result in immediate action, they could have gone further

lazygal

I still place the blame with the service providers. I understand parents are annoyed and upset about the footage, getting phone calls from reporters and being kept in the dark, but really, if this happened to me I'd be looking after my child first and foremost, not flapping about apportioning blame at other parties not contracted to care for her.

Calhoun

I wasn't actually advocating you blame one or the other, my point was in response to the bias and deflection from one party to the other. So yeah by all means blame RTE but if the allegations are true Giraffe need to also take their share of the responsibility.

Calhoun

lazygal wrote: »

I still place the blame with the service providers. I understand parents are annoyed and upset about the footage, getting phone calls from reporters and being kept in the dark, but really, if this happened to me I'd be looking after my child first and foremost, not flapping about apportioning blame at other parties not contracted to care for her.

Well this is an emotive issue and i think a big factor in all this from any parents perspective is having to leave the child in the creche in the first place. I can only assume its not the easiest thing to do in this world putting a child into daycare, any good parent will try to put them in the best and most safe environment possible.

Its not exactly easy to hear that you might have made the mistake and possible put them into an at risk place. Not that its any fault of the parents at hand, it just still isnt easy to think about it.