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Sub-leaser and their rights

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  • 23-05-2013 1:26am
    #1
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭


    Hi, I recently have a new subleaser for my apartment this summer. These guys have been quite rude and have still not paid me the rent or security deposit. The have moved in only a few days ago, however even if they do pay me the money owed, can I remove them without penalty from the PRTB or otherwise and get in new subtennents if i am still uncomfortable with them?

    NOTE: I would not keep their rent or security deposits, only the rent for the time stayed would be kept, not trying to scam them, They seemed nice but now that they have moved in, it is a whole different game.

    Thank you in advance


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    #2
    power101
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭power101


    Never ever ever leave tenants in without a full rent and deposit received. If they want to pay you the rent when they get paid, thats a no. If they want to pay you a deposit next month, thats a no.

    This will not end well.


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    #3
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Snow joke


    power101 wrote: »
    Never ever ever leave tenants in without a full rent and deposit received. If they want to pay you the rent when they get paid, thats a no. If they want to pay you a deposit next month, thats a no.

    This will not end well.

    Well say i did? can i throw them out? seeing as I am still technically living there and there is no lease or agreement signed?


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    #4
    ElleEm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭ElleEm


    They haven't signed anything, haven't paid anything AND are living in your place. I would have thought they have no rights!


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    #5
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Snow joke wrote: »
    These guys have been quite rude and have still not paid me the rent or security deposit. The have moved in only a few days ago, however even if they do pay me the money owed, can I remove them without penalty from the PRTB or otherwise and get in new subtennents if i am still uncomfortable with them?
    From my understanding, as you are subleasing to them, they are living with the landlord, and thus can receive 24 hour notice to get them out?


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    #6
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Snow joke


    the_syco wrote: »
    From my understanding, as you are subleasing to them, they are living with the landlord, and thus can receive 24 hour notice to get them out?

    I should qualify this, I will be moving out in the next day or 2 to live on campus accommodation for work.


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    #7
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    So did you assign your lease?

    You are going to have to be clearer here to get any kind of good advice. Who has the agreement with the landlord?


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    #8
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    also if it is a sub-let did you get the approval of your LL in advance?


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    #9
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    I would be of the opinion that someone who is there without having paid any money or signing any kind of lease is a guest, not a tenant, and as such its up to you to tell them to get lost if you want rid of them.

    This, of course, is just my opinion; Im not sure legally where you stand. They might claim that you have a verbal agreement with them, but them proving it would be a whole different matter.


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    #10
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Snow joke


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    also if it is a sub-let did you get the approval of your LL in advance?

    Sorry for the confusion folks.

    Basically I've just unofficially moved out now. I have gotten full approval and permission from the landlord and he told me to just chuck them out on their ear if we dont want them, but I wanted to make sure I could do this.

    So from next week all 3 rooms will be taken by the tennants and I will NOT be living there. I have signed the lease with 2 other guys that I live with normally so the lease is under our name. So these 3 new tennants have not signed any lease


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    #11
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    Snow joke wrote: »
    Sorry for the confusion folks.

    Basically I've just unofficially moved out now. I have gotten full approval and permission from the landlord and he told me to just chuck them out on their ear if we dont want them, but I wanted to make sure I could do this.

    So from next week all 3 rooms will be taken by the tennants and I will NOT be living there. I have signed the lease with 2 other guys that I live with normally so the lease is under our name. So these 3 new tennants have not signed any lease

    If they don't sign any lease you would still technically be liable for the rent, you need to sort that out straight away.


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    #12
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Am I understanding correct here (I am using some assumptions that still are not clear).
    You and 2 others are the leaseholders.
    You are breaking a lease?
    You gave correct notice to the landlord?
    The landlord has given you permission to assign the rest of the lease to others.
    It seems you assigned the lease to others without the prior approval of the new tenants by the landlord.
    They have given you no rent.
    You and the two other leaseholders have already moved out.

    So now you are the leaseholder on a house in which you no longer live and have allowed tenants to move in without a security deposit or prepaid rent.

    I don't understand 'unofficially' moved out. You either live there or you don't. Test. Have you your own room and bed that you have full access to?
    Is this your primary residence?
    If not there is a danger here that you are actually a landlord now.
    If yes then you have lots of rights.


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    #13
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Snow joke


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Am I understanding correct here (I am using some assumptions that still are not clear).
    You and 2 others are the leaseholders.
    You are breaking a lease?
    You gave correct notice to the landlord?
    The landlord has given you permission to assign the rest of the lease to others.
    It seems you assigned the lease to others without the prior approval of the new tenants by the landlord.
    They have given you no rent.
    You and the two other leaseholders have already moved out.

    So now you are the leaseholder on a house in which you no longer live and have allowed tenants to move in without a security deposit or prepaid rent.

    I don't understand 'unofficially' moved out. You either live there or you don't. Test. Have you your own room and bed that you have full access to?
    Is this your primary residence?
    If not there is a danger here that you are actually a landlord now.
    If yes then you have lots of rights.

    We are not breaking the lease, the lease is up but the landlord has allowed us a monthly lease now, so we still wish to stay there.

    this is my primary residence. The landlord knows this situation and has approved of subletters


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    #14
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Ok.
    Did you give adequate notice that you are moving out?
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

    If you did then once your notice period expires you have no further interest in the house so it is up to the landlord needs to provide a lease to the new tenants aswell as collect the rent/deposit.

    That they moved in while you were there too seems like a strange way to start a tenancy. Is there 6 bedrooms where you and the two other leaseholders along with the new tenants?
    Trying to help you here but you need to provide more information to advise you properly. Not to be nosey but there are alot of strict rules around tenancy that you don't seem to understand and without the details of your agreements with your landlord and new tenants it is impossible to give definite answers to your questions.


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    #15
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Snow joke


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Ok.
    Did you give adequate notice that you are moving out?
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

    If you did then once your notice period expires you have no further interest in the house so it is up to the landlord needs to provide a lease to the new tenants aswell as collect the rent/deposit.

    That they moved in while you were there too seems like a strange way to start a tenancy. Is there 6 bedrooms where you and the two other leaseholders along with the new tenants?
    Trying to help you here but you need to provide more information to advise you properly. Not to be nosey but there are alot of strict rules around tenancy that you don't seem to understand and without the details of your agreements with your landlord and new tenants it is impossible to give definite answers to your questions.

    We plan to move back in for September, so the lease is still under our names. Its a 3 bedroom place, we are subletting it for the summer with the permission of the landlord. I gave them the benefit of the doubt as they seemed like nice people and would pay their rent when they said they would.


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    #16
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    There seems to be confusion as to exactly what a sub-tenant is.

    When a tenant sub-lets, the tenant then vacates the property and becomes a landlord (aka the head landlord) while still retaining possession of the property; the sub-tenant pays rent to the head landlord (i.e. the previous tenant). However, as a landlord s/he must comply with all RTA 2004 and PRTB regulations. S/he is also responsible to the owner landlord for the rent due on the property.

    If the original tenant remains in the property, the new occupant is not a sub-tenant but licensee/lodger.

    As regards the OP main question, a lease may be verbal or written. Terms and conditions of verbal leases can be difficult to prove as it is the tenant's word against the landlord's word as to what was agreed. However, for a lease agreement to exist there must also be payment made: deposit + 1 month's rent being the norm. If the occupants have not paid a cent then IMO, no lease exists although they are in the property.

    If the OP remained in the property or has agreed the occupants do not have exclusive use of the property, then again, the occupants are licensees.


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    #17
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Thanks odds_on. This is the crux of the issue OP and the reason for all of my annoying questions.
    I was trying to determine whether you are a landlord or an 'owner occupier' (for want of a better term) as there are huge differences in the tenants rights in both cases.
    If as I suspect you are actually a landlord you could have a huge issue on your hands.


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    #18
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Thanks odds_on. This is the crux of the issue OP and the reason for all of my annoying questions.
    I was trying to determine whether you are a landlord or an 'owner occupier' (for want of a better term) as there are huge differences in the tenants rights in both cases.
    If as I suspect you are actually a landlord you could have a huge issue on your hands.
    Yes, it can be difficult to determine exactly what a situation is. OPs give much detail about their situation without providing the basic information required for a reasonable answer to their problem.

    Part of a lease agreement requires that "a valuable consideration" must pass between the parties which in this case has not happened, thus, I believe the occupants may be squatters.


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    #19
    Snow joke
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Snow joke


    I had a chat with threshold and FLAC, They told me because it is within the first 6 months, I can fallow rule 4 of the tennancy code. Meaning that I can give them 28 days notice to leave the premises. Im just wondering if I could have them removed before that.


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    #20
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Snow joke wrote: »
    I had a chat with threshold and FLAC
    Did you tell them that no lease was signed, no deposit was paid, and no rent was paid? TBH, if you don't get them out very soon, I don't see them moving out, and taking the severe piss regarding you having to go through months of court to get them evicted.


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    #21
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Oh, and if no lease has been signed, is there anything to stop the OP from staying in the house, and giving the new tenants 24 hours to get the f**k out, if OP played owner occupier, as technically as the subletter person, they are?


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    #22
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    the_syco wrote: »
    Oh, and if no lease has been signed, is there anything to stop the OP from staying in the house, and giving the new tenants 24 hours to get the f**k out, if OP played owner occupier, as technically as the subletter person, they are?

    This.

    I don't understand here why the OP can't just ask them to leave and then call the police. They are nothing more than unwelcome guests, surely?


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    #23
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    They are subletting and have full tenants rights
    This is a very awkward situation a d throwing them out without notice could be hassle
    But I don't know them
    And how they will react


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    #24
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Tigger wrote: »
    They are subletting and have full tenants rights
    This is a very awkward situation a d throwing them out without notice could be hassle
    But I don't know them
    And how they will react

    Not while the OP hasn't moved out, while the OP is still technically there they are licensees with few rights


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    #25
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,306 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Snow joke wrote: »
    We plan to move back in for September, so the lease is still under our names. Its a 3 bedroom place, we are subletting it for the summer with the permission of the landlord. I gave them the benefit of the doubt as they seemed like nice people and would pay their rent when they said they would.
    I'd say you won't be making that mistake again!


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    #26
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Not while the OP hasn't moved out, while the OP is still technically there they are licensees with few rights
    no they are sub-leasers
    read the title of the thread


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    #27
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Tigger wrote: »
    no they are sub-leasers
    read the title of the thread

    They're not anything at the moment as they haven't paid anything nor have they a written lease. At best they are guests; I don't see how they have any legal rights whatsoever.


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    #28
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Tigger wrote: »
    no they are sub-leasers
    read the title of the thread

    Am I being a bit slow here?

    My understanding is that they have signed no lease, paid no deposit and paid no rent. So they have zero right to be there. I don't understand how they have any legal protection at all.

    They're not even squatting as the OP is still there. Are they not just unwelcome guests? With no more legal right to spend the night than a drunk uncle who has overstayed his welcome at a dinner party. In which case the guards should be able to remove them.


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    #29
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    They've signed no lease.
    They've paid no rent.
    They've paid no deposit.

    The thing to do would be call the Guards and have them tossed out as unwelcome "guests".

    But if I understand you've now moved out leaving them in the house?!? WTF? :rolleyes:


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    #30
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    The fact that they have signed no lease is irrelevant - a lease agreement may be verbal but difficult to prove the terms and conditions.

    The fact that there has been no "valuable consideration" paid is important as this completes a lease agreement.


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    #31
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    odds_on wrote: »
    The fact that they have signed no lease is irrelevant - a lease agreement may be verbal but difficult to prove the terms and conditions.

    The fact that there has been no "valuable consideration" paid is important as this completes a lease agreement.

    For a lease to be legally enforceable it must be in writing.

    I'm far from convinced that there is any lease here but even if there were its unenforceable as its not in writing and the tenants are in breach as they haven't paid the rent.


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