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Renting without a lease

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  • 23-05-2013 6:22pm
    #1
    COH
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭


    Hi guys,

    I'd appreciate your insight into this situation. My partner and I have been living at our current address for 14 months. we signed a standard 12 month lease, paying the standard one month security deposit etc.

    12 months later I called the landlord (who conveniently lives upstairs) and told him that we would be happy to renew out lease. He called down and informed us that he was actually selling the building, but that he would be happy to carry on as usual eg. we pay the same monthly rent and that he'd give us ample notice about any sale date.

    My concern is that I am not entirely sure what our rights are in this situation and as we have no lease we are slightly uneasy about how protected we are... I arrived home on Monday to find the building covered in scaffolding (nobody told us this was going to be happening) and are awoken each day to the sounds of tradesmen outside our bedroom window (ground floor flat). And really have no idea about what is going on... The landlord then requested access to our apartment that evening, as we were both still in work we told him that he could enter if he needed to, but he never really said for what... so my questions are, aside from how protected are we, are...

    1 - On completion of the 12 month contract should we not have been entitled to a refund of our security deposit?

    2 - Essentially, as we are pretty much on a rolling 30 day eviction notice should we find another property to let do we need to offer the full months notice?

    3 - If the landlord sells tomorrow, and we have not located a new place to live, what happens there!?

    4 - A number of issues have arisen with the electrics (loss of lighting etc) in the past month, is the landlord still obligated to pay for repairs in the absence of a lease?

    5 - If we just decided to be awkward and stopped paying rent until an amicable and written agreement regarding the lease is in place, are we likely to end up in court?

    6 - Should we not have been informed about the work being carried out on the building?




    Appreciate your input - I should add that I have no intention of being difficult, I like the landlord and don't really want to be a pain.


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    #2
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    1 - On completion of the 12 month contract should we not have been entitled to a refund of our security deposit?

    No. You attain part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months living there. Renewing a lease does not affect this right either.
    2 - Essentially, as we are pretty much on a rolling 30 day eviction notice should we find another property to let do we need to offer the full months notice?

    You are not on a 30 day rolling eviction notice. No such thing exists. Once you have part 4 tenancy the LL has to serve a valid notice. How long depends on how long you are there.
    3 - If the landlord sells tomorrow, and we have not located a new place to live, what happens there!?

    Afaik most mortgages these days won't be completed unless the property is empty so they would need to serve you notice to leave and you have more rights than you think you currently have.
    4 - A number of issues have arisen with the electrics (loss of lighting etc) in the past month, is the landlord still obligated to pay for repairs in the absence of a lease?

    Yes all repairs are still to be done by the LL. It's his property.
    5 - If we just decided to be awkward and stopped paying rent until an amicable and written agreement regarding the lease is in place, are we likely to end up in court?

    Yes you must still pay rent. You don't actually need a new lease every 12 months. It's actually pretty common not to renew. Signing a new lease can only add to your rights and not take away any rights you have as a tenant under law. If you stop paying rent, you can be served with a notice of late payment and ultimately the LL could take a case to PRTB against you. If you are happy to stay there it's better to pay the rent as under Pt 4 tenancy the LL can only evict for a few specific reasons. Non payment of rent is one.
    6 - Should we not have been informed about the work being carried out on the building?

    What kind of work are we talking about. I think you should be notified about it at least but I actually don't know if he has to notify you. It probably depends on the work being done.


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    #3
    COH
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭COH


    Yawns wrote: »
    No. You attain part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months living there. Renewing a lease does not affect this right either.

    Good to know thanks, I know we attain part for after 6 months but wasn't sure if that was effected by not having a lease

    You are not on a 30 day rolling eviction notice. No such thing exists. Once you have part 4 tenancy the LL has to serve a valid notice. How long depends on how long you are there.

    I made up the term... :D I mean't that we could get notice any day really as opposed to knowing a fixed end date to our tenancy.

    Afaik most mortgages these days won't be completed unless the property is empty so they would need to serve you notice to leave and you have more rights than you think you currently have.

    Good to know!


    Yes all repairs are still to be done by the LL. It's his property.

    Also good to know, we have no lighting in our sitting room and its been 6 weeks since he said he would have someone fix it.

    Yes you must still pay rent. You don't actually need a new lease every 12 months. It's actually pretty common not to renew. Signing a new lease can only add to your rights and not take away any rights you have as a tenant under law. If you stop paying rent, you can be served with a notice of late payment and ultimately the LL could take a case to PRTB against you. If you are happy to stay there it's better to pay the rent as under Pt 4 tenancy the LL can only evict for a few specific reasons. Non payment of rent is one.

    No intention of not paying rent really, I love where I live and get on with the landlord was just curious.

    What kind of work are we talking about. I think you should be notified about it at least but I actually don't know if he has to notify you. It probably depends on the work being done.

    I don't know, my main issue was more to do with nearly breaking my face off the scaffold that was erected at nose level about a foot in front of the front door.


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    #4
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    12 months later I called the landlord (who conveniently lives upstairs)

    Is this an (old) house converted in two flats, with you living on the ground floor and the owner on the first floor?


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    #5
    COH
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭COH


    odds_on wrote: »
    Is this an (old) house converted in two flats, with you living on the ground floor and the owner on the first floor?

    Yes, old house converted to three flats... One on each floor, landlord lives 2 floors up


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    #6
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    One thing to make sure of is that you are not just renting a room as you have very little rights under that way. If it's a private residence on it's own and you had a lease for that, then you are in an extremely good position. Is it a flat/apartment on it's own right. Bedroom, living room, kitchen, bathroom or do you share the rest of the house with others?


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    #7
    COH
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭COH


    Yawns wrote: »
    One thing to make sure of is that you are not just renting a room as you have very little rights under that way. If it's a private residence on it's own and you had a lease for that, then you are in an extremely good position. Is it a flat/apartment on it's own right. Bedroom, living room, kitchen, bathroom or do you share the rest of the house with others?

    Yes its a private residence, completely self contained apartment.


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    #8
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    Then you should be well covered under the part 4 tenancy. No need for a lease as you have all the rights as a tenant you need. Just keep paying rent and have a read through this for a summary of rights etc with some links. It should cover most of the basic question that you might think of later. Anything you are unsure of then just post back here.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html


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    #9
    COH
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭COH


    Yawns wrote: »
    Then you should be well covered under the part 4 tenancy. No need for a lease as you have all the rights as a tenant you need. Just keep paying rent and have a read through this for a summary of rights etc with some links. It should cover most of the basic question that you might think of later. Anything you are unsure of then just post back here.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html

    Thanks for your help mate much appreciated


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    #10
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    COH wrote: »
    Yes, old house converted to three flats... One on each floor, landlord lives 2 floors up

    The fact that the house id divided into 3 flats is your saviour. You therefore have a Part 4 tenancy and all the rights that go with it.

    If the house was only divided into two (self contained flats), then there could have been a problem.


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    #11
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    odds_on wrote: »
    The fact that the house id divided into 3 flats is your saviour. You therefore have a Part 4 tenancy and all the rights that go with it.

    If the house was only divided into two (self contained flats), then there could have been a problem.

    Why would two self contained flats be different to three?


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    #12
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    djimi wrote: »
    Why would two self contained flats be different to three?

    If its a Pre-63 building, and the owner is still living in it, irrespective of the manner its subdivided, the OP may still be living there under licence.

    Councils issued enforcement orders to owners of properties such as the OP has described, last year. It sounds like the owner is fixing up the structural issues associated with the building, and selling up- rather than comply with current regulations- which is his or her prerogative.

    OP- you're safe there until you're issued with notice to vacate. By not notifying the owner of your intention to remain in the residence past the elapse of the lease on Part 4 terms, while you enjoy the benefits of the Part-4 terms, the terms of the original lease, which are in addition to any Part 4 rights or obligations and not detracting from them, continues to apply.


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    #13
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    smccarrick wrote: »
    If its a Pre-63 building, and the owner is still living in it, irrespective of the manner its subdivided, the OP may still be living there under licence.

    Ah cool, didnt know that.


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    #14
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    odds_on wrote: »
    The fact that the house id divided into 3 flats is your saviour. You therefore have a Part 4 tenancy and all the rights that go with it.

    If the house was only divided into two (self contained flats), then there could have been a problem.
    RTA 2004 Section 25
    —(1) This Part does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling where
    the conditions specified in subsection (2) are satisfied if the landlord
    of the dwelling opts, in accordance with subsection (3), for this Part
    not to apply to it.
    (2) Those conditions are—
    (a) the dwelling concerned is one of 2 dwellings within a
    building,
    (b) that building, as originally constructed, comprised a single
    dwelling, and
    (c) the landlord resides in the other dwelling.
    (3) A landlord’s opting as mentioned in subsection (1) shall be
    signified in writing in a notice served by him or her on the tenant
    before the commencement of the tenancy.

    "Then there could have been a problem" - if the owner had fulfilled clause 3.


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