Construction Industry and pay rates

Piriz

The Construction Industry Federation hiked up rates of pay during the boom to aprox 25euro per hour for all qualified trades people. Since the collapse of the industry and the economy these rates have remained.

The CIF is regularly lobbying for more investment in construction; however, they have not reduced pay rates to become more competitive..

Why? do you think it should happen? and do you think it ever will happen?

gaius c

Do builders have a union? Genuine question as I don't know.

hfallada

I think the labour court sets the pay as it traditional a industry with little union membership

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/information.nsf/0/e2771e4911fec84980256a1c002c85ab/

They got a 7.5% pay cut in 2011 which is sort of tiny considering how high their wages are in a recession

Mr. teddywinkles

Piriz wrote: »

The Construction Industry Federation hiked up rates of pay during the boom to aprox 25euro per hour for all qualified trades people. Since the collapse of the industry and the economy these rates have remained.

The CIF is regularly lobbying for more investment in construction; however, they have not reduced pay rates to become more competitive..

Why? do you think it should happen? and do you think it ever will happen?

Dont know too many in industry getting e25 an hour now

Bullseye1

Most have had a pay cut of 100%.

Hootanany

Their are carpenters still demanding €120 after tax per day, I know one chap that turned down 3 weeks work because all he was offered was €100 after tax.

Gumbo

Good tradesmen are still in demand. I know one builder who is still booked for for the following 12 months because he is good. I have bricked mates that have all branched off into other fields, but these were the guys earning 1k per week while the rest of us were earning €300-€350!

My electrician mates have had little or no impact from the recession if I'm honest. Yes, their core pay has dropped a bit but they are out the door wi evening or weekend work still.

All comes down to how good you are and what reputation you have I suppose.

maryishere

kceire wrote: »

Good tradesmen are still in demand.

...........................................................................................................

All comes down to how good you are and what reputation you have I suppose.

contrary to what you say most people in the construction industry have had major reductions in their workload etc. What else would you expect when the number of houses being built drops from what, 90,000 per year to less than 10,000 per year, or whatever?

ABEasy

Were the REA's not found to be unconstitutional in a recent Supreme Court ruling! Which in effect makes these rates out pay un-enforceable, making €8.65 the new minimum wage?

Gumbo

maryishere wrote: »

contrary to what you say most people in the construction industry have had major reductions in their workload etc. What else would you expect when the number of houses being built drops from what, 90,000 per year to less than 10,000 per year, or whatever?

Depends on what way you look at it. I have a good cross section of tradesmen mates, all based in working class suburbs who are doing well. And you also have the labour court figures that construction hourly rates are only down 7.5% shows they haven't been as slaughtered as people think.

Yes theres people who did lose their job, but the ones who kept theirs are getting by, and getting by comfortably too.

maryishere

kceire wrote: »

, but the ones who kept theirs are getting by, and getting by comfortably too.

not necessarily. Many are just scraping by. Same goes across the whole industry. Some trades and some areas of the country are probably worse affected than others though. You can get skilled workers for 80 to 100 euro a day in some areas. Try raising a family on that. No guarantee of work from one week to the next. No sick pay or holiday pay. No pension. You may think that's getting by comfortably. I suppose its comfortable compared to the 3rd world.

What else would you expect when the number of houses being built drops from what, 90,000 per year to less than 10,000 per year, or whatever?

The_Honeybadger

A very high proportion of my classmates and friends from school went into the trades as I graduated in 99 when it was really taking off and the money was attractive for lads without any real interest in academic study. Some are now on the dole, some are doing nixers for cash, some are on week on week off sporadic type arrangements as they are needed, many are in oz etc. I don't know a single one that is in a steady job with an employer. I would guess that many of them without ties (wife & kids) have left the country. There is a limited amount of work for guys who are willing to do small jobs like extensions, refurbs etc., but its a race to the bottom and many are doing it for cash or barely covering their costs.

A reduction in the €25 rate would do nothing to stimulate building, we have a surplus in housing stock in most areas, the banks are bust and the PAYE sector has SFA disposable income. If you are in construction and you are out of work you are probably better off to retrain (if you can afford to) or emigrate. Sad truth.

Gumbo

maryishere wrote: »

not necessarily. Many are just scraping by. Same goes across the whole industry. Some trades and some areas of the country are probably worse affected than others though. You can get skilled workers for 80 to 100 euro a day in some areas. Try raising a family on that. No guarantee of work from one week to the next. No sick pay or holiday pay. No pension. You may think that's getting by comfortably. I suppose its comfortable compared to the 3rd world.

What else would you expect when the number of houses being built drops from what, 90,000 per year to less than 10,000 per year, or whatever?

€100 per day, sure that's good money and that's all I have and currently earn over the last 5years or so?

CRH, the building materials company is posting record profits and has places 1st on this years company performance list. Also the construction sector as a whole have posted a 41% increase in turn over this year.

It's always going to be the different for different groups. Whether they are private or public sector, people are hit differently depending on salary and out goings.

Why would you state that employees get no sick pay or holiday pay? Every employee in this county is entitled to sick benefits?

RichardAnd

Hootanany wrote: »

Their are carpenters still demanding €120 after tax per day, I know one chap that turned down 3 weeks work because all he was offered was €100 after tax.

Then he's a fool, don't judge a group by the actions of one.

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

€100 per day, sure that's good money and that's all I have and currently earn over the last 5years or so?

CRH, the building materials company is posting record profits and has places 1st on this years company performance list. Also the construction sector as a whole have posted a 41% increase in turn over this year.

It's always going to be the different for different groups. Whether they are private or public sector, people are hit differently depending on salary and out goings.

Why would you state that employees get no sick pay or holiday pay? Every employee in this county is entitled to sick benefits?

CRH is an international company most of its business is now outside Ireland.

The other thing about the building industry is that most of the workers earning serious money during the boom were self employed. Some of these were only subbing there own work. When the boom ended a lot of these were incapable of continuing on most found that they were now not entitled to any unemployment benefit and as they only became self employed during the boom had never coped in a recession being self employed.

maryishere

kceire wrote: »

Why would you state that employees get no sick pay or holiday pay? Every employee in this county is entitled to sick benefits?

I said you can get skilled workers for 80 to 100 euro a day in some areas. These people generally are not employees - things are quite competitive and an employer who pays sick pay, holiday pay, pension plan etc would have higher costs than a self employed person.

Most self employed people do not have pension plans, paid holidays, paid half days to go shopping at Christmas, paid half hours to cash their pay cheques, paid sickies etc.

classic tiler

Piriz wrote: »

The Construction Industry Federation hiked up rates of pay during the boom to aprox 25euro per hour for all qualified trades people. Since the collapse of the industry and the economy these rates have remained.

The CIF is regularly lobbying for more investment in construction; however, they have not reduced pay rates to become more competitive..

Why? do you think it should happen? and do you think it ever will happen?

Personally I think rates should be reduced. It just makes sense. Tradesmen who are sticking with the boom rates are pricing themselves out of the market. My rate before the boom and during the boom was €18 per sq yard, I've since dropped it to €16 and I've noticed a slight increase every month since. If Publicans reduced their prices we'd see pubs getting a lot busier.

flutered

has any one here have the pleasure of working for BAM, if so you will be able to put posters in the know.

Gumbo

maryishere wrote: »

I said you can get skilled workers for 80 to 100 euro a day in some areas.

To which you said was crap money, to which I replied that was good money for a days work. No wonder the country got as bad as it did with opinions like that.

maryishere wrote: »

These people generally are not employees - things are quite competitive and an employer who pays sick pay, holiday pay, pension plan etc would have higher costs than a self employed .

Every employee in this country is entitled to sick pay from the SW. Are you on about the black market? If so, I hope you reported these people for working in the black market

maryishere wrote: »

Most self employed people do not have pension plans, paid holidays, paid half days to go shopping at Christmas, paid half hours to cash their pay cheques, paid sickies etc.

Sorry, no idea what you are babbling about here ?

michael999999

flutered wrote: »

has any one here have the pleasure of working for BAM, if so you will be able to put posters in the know.

I know a good few lads steel fixing for them at the moment. No problems with them.

maryishere

kceire wrote: »

To which you said was crap money, to which I replied that was good money for a days work.

I did not say it was crap money. It is the going rate, full stop. I said " Try raising a family on that. No guarantee of work from one week to the next. No sick pay or holiday pay. No pension. You may think that's getting by comfortably. I suppose its comfortable compared to the 3rd world."

kceire wrote: »

Every employee in this country is entitled to sick pay from the SW.

and all self employed people people in the country - and there are hundreds of thousands of them - are entitled to s.f.a. from the SW. Not even the dole if their business dries up. Hence many will work for close to the minimum wage just to put food on the table - and be glad to get it. I know a few who would be better off on the dole but they cannot get it as they have a wife working or a mortgage on a property.

skafish

maryishere wrote: »

and all self employed people people in the country - and there are hundreds of thousands of them - are entitled to s.f.a. from the SW. Not even the dole if their business dries up. Hence many will work for close to the minimum wage just to put food on the table - and be glad to get it. I know a few who would be better off on the dole but they cannot get it as they have a wife working or a mortgage on a property.

And yet again I will reiterate the same point to you...... Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW. I suggest (yet again) you check your facts before you post.

the_syco

kceire wrote: »

Every employee in this county is entitled to sick benefits?

What is "sick benefits"?

maryishere

skafish wrote: »

Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW.

Everyone who is self employed has to pay PRSI. The social welfare they get though is means tested ...if you have a working spouse, or a bit of property / assets, you do not get it.

barneystinson

maryishere wrote: »

Everyone who is self employed has to pay PRSI. The social welfare they get though is means tested ...if you have a working spouse, or a bit of property / assets, you do not get it.

That's because jobseeker's benefit accrues to people who have had employer's contributions paid on their behalf by an employer, usually at 10.75% (in addition to the 4% the employee pays). If self employed want the same benefits as employees then someone has to pay for it - in the case of the self employed that'll have to be themselves.

I think it'd only be fair to allow self employed people opt into class A to get the same benefits as employees, but I'd say there'd be an awful lot of people who wouldn't be willing to increase their effective rate of tax by another 11%. High self-employed earners would then have a marginal rate of almost 66% (41% tax + 4% PRSI + 10.75% PRSI + 7% USC + 3% USC on income above 100k).

the_syco

maryishere wrote: »

Everyone who is self employed has to pay PRSI.

What class of PRSI do they have to pay, as opposed to what class of PRSI that they can pay if they want to be able to claim SW should they be unemployed?

Popular Hardback

Seen a restored 2007 concrete lorry at a vintage rally the last day, next to the threshing mill.

A real blast from the past. Some old guys there even remembered how they mixed concrete.

They were also doing nostalgic 'breakfast rolls'.

Takes me right back. Aye those were the days.

Gumbo

the_syco wrote: »

What is "sick benefits"?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/disability_and_illness/disability_benefit.html

flutered

michael999999 wrote: »

I know a good few lads steel fixing for them at the moment. No problems with them.

they have every contractor cut to the bone, they keep them waiting for cheques,

flutered

skafish wrote: »

And yet again I will reiterate the same point to you...... Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW. I suggest (yet again) you check your facts before you post.

family member who was working in construction went to sign on, he was told as his wife was earning more than 400 a week he could go and whistle, like back in the day i had a kid in collage, i was refused the childrens allowance for her, when she was finished i was told that if i appealed it it would have been granted, every frivilous excuse is used to deny people what they are/were entitled to.

michael999999

flutered wrote: »

they have every contractor cut to the bone, they keep them waiting for cheques,

Can't say I have heard the same. I suppose it depends if BAM are waiting for stage payments aswell!

Farmer Pudsey

skafish wrote: »

And yet again I will reiterate the same point to you...... Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW. I suggest (yet again) you check your facts before you post.

Only means tested SW and I suggest you check your facts. Selfemployed have little or no access to SW in the way employed workers have. They would have to pass a means test which means that unless they have virtually no savings or other funds,however some employed try to put a bit away for there pension or college funds ( often in the form of property/Cash as they tend not to trust pension funds). This makes it impossible to qualify for SW. they have no access to jobseekers or sick benifit( the government was thinking of changing this)

Dob74

Piriz wrote: »

The Construction Industry Federation hiked up rates of pay during the boom to aprox 25euro per hour for all qualified trades people. Since the collapse of the industry and the economy these rates have remained.

The CIF is regularly lobbying for more investment in construction; however, they have not reduced pay rates to become more competitive..

Why? do you think it should happen? and do you think it ever will happen?

http://www.siptu.ie/divisions/utilitiesconstruction/construction/rearatesfortheconstructionindustry/

The Union rate of pay at the height was 18.60 an hour for a qualified trademens that's paye.
You could become self-employed and get 25 an hour but you won't qualify for holiday pay, social welfare etc since you where self-employed.

Geuze

the_syco wrote: »

What class of PRSI do they have to pay, as opposed to what class of PRSI that they can pay if they want to be able to claim SW should they be unemployed?

Self-employed pay class S, which does entitle them to the State Pensions, but not to JB. That is what they complain about.

Employed pay class A, which means they can get 9 months JB.

Both types of workers can apply for the means-tested JA ("dole").

Dob74

skafish wrote: »

And yet again I will reiterate the same point to you...... Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW. I suggest (yet again) you check your facts before you post.

PRSI for self employed is for your contributory pension. JA and JB are means tested so most people wouldn't qualify. So please check your facts.

Geuze

Please note that JB is not means-tested. It is based on having enough PRSI at class A.

Self-employed people pay class S.

See here:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Jobseeker's-Benefit.aspx

Social insurance (PRSI) contributions:

To qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit, you must pay Class A, H or P PRSI contributions. Class A is the one paid by most private sector employees. Class H is paid by soldiers, reservists and temporary army nurses, who do not qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit until they have left the army.

enricoh

theres 2 schools being built near me and both are being built by nordy contractors. pretty much everyone on site is nordy. the union hourly rates here are too high to compete with up north.
a mate looked for a job on one n was told by foreman the pay was 60stg a day! coz the dole is crap up north the lads will work for 300stg a week n travel up n down every day. if u get the dole here, rent allowance n any nixer at all u'd be better off not working

smellyfinger

flutered wrote: »

has any one here have the pleasure of working for BAM, if so you will be able to put posters in the know.

I know a few guys in working for them through an agency in a civils job in Tralee co Kerry and take €8.65 an hour. I also know of guys driving machinery on this site but not working directly for BAM but for a subbie for €8.65 an hour. Years ago when I worked on contract for local authorities we were warned that our subbies had to pay the jlc rates and if it was found out that we were non compliant then we could be kicked off the job. Also the unions were on our backs too looking for their touch too.

flutered

smellyfinger wrote: »

I know a few guys in working for them through an agency in a civils job in Tralee co Kerry and take €8.65 an hour. I also know of guys driving machinery on this site but not working directly for BAM but for a subbie for €8.65 an hour. Years ago when I worked on contract for local authorities we were warned that our subbies had to pay the jlc rates and if it was found out that we were non compliant then we could be kicked off the job. Also the unions were on our backs too looking for their touch too.

thanks for your info, this just proves what people are being asked to work for, tom parland need not ask for any more reductions in peoples pay, that is all ****e from the construction bosses, they are pulling in as much now as they were during the boom.

smellyfinger

i reckon the big construction firms are even more profitable now than during the boom. they have all the rates cut and are slow to pay and the tendering process here is set up that if your turnover is not high then you dont qualify to tender. in ten years there will be probably 10 firms doing all the government work and paying the trades people peanuts. thats progress i suppose

SIX PACK

With the Construction industry picking up. I think it's high time SIPTU fought for a new JLC agreement with the big players.
Expecting Some construction workers to work outdoors in the middle of winter in the freezing wind and rain for €8.65ph is taking the piss.

flutered

SIX PACK wrote: »

With the Construction industry picking up. I think it's high time SIPTU fought for a new JLC agreement with the big players.
Expecting Some construction workers to work outdoors in the middle of winter in the freezing wind and rain for €8.65ph is taking the piss.

according to breaking news.ie some are doing it for less, but we are well on our way to a low cost high tax economy.

gaius c

SIX PACK wrote: »

With the Construction industry picking up. I think it's high time SIPTU fought for a new JLC agreement with the big players.
Expecting Some construction workers to work outdoors in the middle of winter in the freezing wind and rain for €8.65ph is taking the piss.

Why? There's an over-supply of such workers and limited cash to go around.

flutered

gaius c wrote: »

Why? There's an over-supply of such workers and limited cash to go around.

a better reason is required.

SIX PACK

Just seen this on the news. Fair play to those lads for standing up for their rights too much exploitation going on by the Big firms. Luke Fitzpatrick and another guy stuck up on the Tower crane tonight until they get paid properly
http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/1007/650724-school-site/

Packrat

From the reports, those guys are "self employed" with a subbie under the "tax deducted" scheme.

How it works: Main contractor, in this case Rhattigans subcontract a package to a subbie for a fixed price under the new form of govt contract. He then gathers a crew of these guys, and puts them on "self employment" at lower rates per sq metre or per block or whatever way he thinks he can make a profit.
Main contractor pays the subbie (after 60 days if he's lucky) less whatever rate Revenue tell them to deduct (between 0 & 35% depending on how his status is with them)
He pays the gang weekly or fortnightly, - again deducting whatever rate revenue tell him to.
Revenue/ various accountants add up the tabs at year end and either refund or bill people depending on how they did.

Rhattigans have a huge number of these schools to build over the next year, and the unions (who are broke as a joke) want to reestablish some control over the industry.

Most lads working under this system would prefer a weeks wages, but (understandably after the debacles of 2008 - 11, most subbies would rather stop than employ people "direct" ever again.

The bottom line is that NOBODY is making money here, the GCs are still struggling to survive under vastly reduced rates, the subbies (average company lifespan is about 4 years) are barely making a living, and the lads on the lump are getting more than the dole.

Time and a return to profitability/ normal (pre 2000) building industry will sort out most of these issues.

SIX PACK

How did JJ Rhatigan get all those contracts ?
Must of made a big donation to Political party.

Packrat

SIX PACK wrote: »

How did JJ Rhatigan get all those contracts ?
Must of made a big donation to Political party.

:-) That wasn't even still working in 2009.

At least BAM didn't get them.

paul1969

no irish married man can drive kildare to dublin thats married with a couple of kids for 500 euro a week spend 60-100 on petrol pay for parking.there's nothing out of it.Maybe for 3 months work.no holiday pay no pension. that governments made us pay a few year ago.There has to be a decent rate of pay for us and the foreign man.i worked in other countries this place is gone to be a joke.They want u to work maybe 7.30-6 no overtime or nothing off most of them.It suits young lads where 6-7 are living in a house with nothing to keep only there mickeys.

chopper6

There's a "builder" on tradesmen.ie tried to charge a friend of mine 40 euros for putting 4 screws in a wall....another bloke quoted 500 quid to install a stove and was finished in an hour.

Farmer Pudsey

chopper6 wrote: »

There's a "builder" on tradesmen.ie tried to charge a friend of mine 40 euros for putting 4 screws in a wall....another bloke quoted 500 quid to install a stove and was finished in an hour.

I am not exactly sorry for your friend if he could not put the few screws in the wall himself. If you ask some one to do somthing stupid like that you deserve what you get.

Yes there tends to be lads that will try it on pricing stuff. You have to price around. When buying a car you do take first price from a salesman. Some lads consider 100/day huge money for a tradesman taht is a sole trader. However they should remember that he has to take his holiday pay and employer PRSI out of that. He also has to fund any day he is sick and any day he will not have work.

In general these sort of workers find the next 4-8 weeks hard nobody wants you around the house coming up to christmas and few want jobs done early in the new year for money reasons. Great time to bargin with trades men