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Retarded.

Czarcasm

This is one I've been thinking about for a while now in relation to Boards.ie as it's something I come across far too often on this site, and it IS a site wide issue-

The use of the word "retarded".

Under the newly published DSM-5 (The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), published on May 18th 2013, the phrase "Mental Retardation" has now been revised to "Intellectual Disability" or "Intellectual Development Disorder".

It's a phrase that is commonly bandied about on a whim in the After Hours forum, particularly in the Dumb Facebook Status thread, and even in one of the legendary threads, well, R. Rated was shown the more dubious side of our beloved Pighead.

To those who would question it as a site wide problem, I was reading the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender forum this morning and happened across this Moderator note from mango (I hope they don't mind me quoting) -

mango salsa wrote: »

Folks in future please don't use the word retarded on this forum. It is a word that people find offensive. Any problems pm me.

I also didn't bother correcting Seachmall on this little misinformed exchange between themselves and another poster in the political correctness thread in After Hours (deciding it was best I get all my ducks in a row first and not to appear like I was picking on posters as opposed to merely pointing out examples) -

suicide_circus wrote: »

why do Americans still use "retarded" as a proper medical term and we see it as offensive ? genuine question

Seachmall wrote: »

Because it is the medical term and was used in medicine before it became offensive. We shouldn't expect the sciences to alter the terminology just because some people have a stick up their arse.

I remember my leaving cert biology teacher having to explain that "Retarded" and "Mongoloid" were medical terms and hence used in the book and her class. In particular I remember the look of contempt on her face at the thought of needing to preface her class with a disclaimer.

Edit - References to Mongoloids to describe Down Syndrome had apparently been dropped in 1965. Meh.

But mango's Moderator warning was the straw that broke the camel's back this morning so to speak. It shouldn't have to be pointed out to posters that referring to a person as retarded is both insulting and misleading, and for Boards.ie and society in general where awareness surrounding mental health is becoming more prominent in society, I think it can only be a good thing that we start educating people in the proper use of the terminology and emphasise the importance of making people aware that there's ridiculous political correctness terminology, and then there's sheer ignorance, and you don't need an IQ below 70 to be able to tell the difference.

Now please, to those whose first thought having read the above is to quote Stephen Fry-

Nobody likes a smartàrse.

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Czarcasm

RopeDrink wrote: »

For me this whole thing is similar to the use of the word "Rape" during gaming sessions.

I don't find the words offensive per say, I just don't don't agree with their use in general and avoid doing it myself in ANY way, even if people around me throw these words around like common everyday banter / terminology for whatever.

The portmanteau'd word "frape" is one recent evolution of the English language that for me trivialises rape, but such morphemes seem to fall out of fashion quickly nowadays, whereas the use of the word retard or retarded has bothered me for the last 30 years, and it has taken over ten years of campaigning to have the word stricken from the DSM, so it shall no longer be used in a medical context, as it is misleading, misunderstood and carries with it inherently negative connotations and stigma.

If we ban the use of "Retarded" and "Rape" etc, then when a new trend starts do we continue to ban the use of words? Where does it end?

If you actually read the the After Hours charter, at least you have a starting point-

Sexism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia and many other forms of discrimination are censored if not banned, so would common sense not dictate that that just because there is no explicit statement in the charter, it doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate against, belittle or trivialise people with mental disorders?

A persons intellect, just like their sexuality, their gender, their ethnicity, is something they cannot change, they are born with it, they live with it, it is an inherent part of who they are as a person.

If we can censor, infract and ban the use of phrases like-

.....cool story bro, blasting with piss and yore ma.

and get 200 and odd appreciative acknowledgements for doing it, then how difficult is it to discourage people from using the word retarded?

Was going to suggest the censoring side of it but again, considering the word is used in medical terms etc then that wouldn't be useful either.

Seriously RopeDrink, how many times do people have to be told? Did you read the OP?

The word retarded is no longer recognised as a medical term, so that excuse for it's use immediately goes out the window

Myrddin

It does have a perfectly valid engineering/mechanical use as mentioned above. Ignition timing can either be advanced, or retarded to suit the demands of an engine/fuel efficiency reasons.

The internet, like life, is literally full of things that can offend people. Is boards.ie to censor everything deemed offensive by some?

LoLth

its a word that, like many words is defined as one thing but through mis-use has come to mean something else.

medically , it relates to a learning impairment.

In gaming, it came to mean stupid or idiotic.

now, I do not think that anyone calling someone a retard on boards is intending to imply that they have a learning impairment nor are they intending to imply that people with a learning impairment are stupid or idiotic - it is still a personal insult though and mods are quite within their rights to censure the poster for attacking the poster and not the post.

When I read a post that says "thats just retarded" I usually take it to mean that are saying the post / argument is stupid / idiotic / not fully realised . Some people read a personal insult into *any* use of the word. I dont. (one user took the use of the word retarded referring to his/her post on a thread to be a direct attack on the users child who has a mental impairment - it later emerged that the insulting poster knew nothing about the insultees personal life and meant that their post was pointless - he/she apologised anyway).

If you find the use of the word offensive, then , as Beruthiel says - just take it as an indicator of how much stock to put into that users posts.

It might sound a little callous of me but seriously, at some stage people have to grow some element of skin. You *cannot* in this day and age expect to go onto the internet, mingle with a group of anonymous strangers discussing potentially polarising issues and not read a phrase or two that may or may not be offensive. I'm not condoning direct, deliberate insults and I'm not saying we should all race to the lowest common denominator but you take care of your own behaviour and let others take care of theirs and if they go too far, trust that they will be dealt with by the moderators and/or the other members of the society or group.

i dont take offense to the use of the word Paddy or Mick when its used to describe Irish people...Stupid Paddy or Dumb Mick.. now thats different

It all comes down to context , if you are offended, take a break, step away and either forget about as not worth your attention or , re-read the post and see if maybe your own perception could be leading you to mis-interpret the intention behind the words. If you're still offended, no harm is asking for a second opinion by reporting it to the mods. I can almost guarantee though that :

"can you take a look at this please, I think its offensive"

is going to get treated with a lot more gravitas and respect than

"OMG, FFS ban this prick he's insulting me. I hate this kind of ****. Delete this NOW! or I'll call my lawyer and sue you all for the emotional turmoil you've subjected me to! I dont know how that poster knows my deep seated hatred of clowns but he obviously does and he's calling me one just to make a personal attack!!!!!!!onetyoneoneone!"

padd b1975

ejmaztec wrote: »

Having been brought up in the UK, It was made clear to me early on that the use of the word is unacceptable. It may be part of "common parlance", but as far as I can see, that would be common parlance on Boards only, the only people in real life that I've heard use it, being people one could describe as under-educated low-lifes.

Another word falling into the same category is "spastic" or more commonly "spa". It makes me cringe each time that I see those descriptions.

In my opinion, using either retard or spastic is as unacceptable as using the "N" word to describe coloured people.

Not really acceptable either.:o

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330132/European-golf-head-forced-apologise-using-word-coloured-talking-Sergio-Garcia-Tiger-Woods-racism-row.html

baby and crumble

I haven't read the whole thread- so apologies if this has been brought up before.

I work with, and am friends with, many people with intellectual disabilities. ALL of them, if you ask them (which I have) are extremely hurt and upset by people using the words 'retard' or 'retarded' to mean stupid, idiotic or ridiculous, or backward.

I understand that language changes. I agree, it does. And it should. But it hasn't changed so fast in this case. People who the word used to refer to are hurt by its usage. So why is that ok, and yet using the n-word, or "shemale" or "fag" is not allowed? Is it because the individuals who are upset and hurt, and who are being referred to, however obliquely, are generally not accessing the site directly? They have no direct voice here, and so those of us who feel strongly about it are the ones having to object. And that isn't enough for a lot of people.

I really dislike the term. It is offensive to many people I care about deeply. It is a form of belittling those people, however indirectly. I personally don't get offended as such, but it does upset me. I also immediately think less of the person who will use such language in general conversation, and who then argues that what they're doing is fine because the person who was upset by its usage is "wrong". Like you can choose what upsets or hurts you.

anncoates

I'd hate to see the phrase banned generally. People really need to be a bit more thick skinned and accept that some people are less offended than they are by the jocular use of some words.

Czarcasm

anncoates one could just as easily turn your post on it's head, like so-

anncoates wrote: »

I'd hate prefer to see the phrase banned generally. People really need to be a bit more thick skinned considerate and civil and accept that some people are less offended than they are by the jocular use of some words which are used outside the motors forum to refer to a persons intellect.

Humor (or should you prefer to use the qualifier "jocular" humor) is subjective, and on a site with as large an audience as Boards.ie (on mobile but as far as I can recall the roundabout figure was 600k members over 800 forums), the word "retarded" is not considered in any way funny, only by a minority of posters, the same type of poster who would dismiss slurs against other minorities as "jocular" humor.

If you find slurring people with mental disorders, many of whom actually DO have access to Boards.ie (through the wonders of technology) funny, then I would respectfully suggest that you keep such jocular humor for your offline company who will have a much greater appreciation of your lack of comedic talent.

returnNull

I think its all about context.

Calling someone a retard is out of order,but I see nothing wrong with saying a post is retarded or that someones point of view is retarded.If that person gets hurt/upset or offended by it I really dont give a sh1t.

Again I think the word is so little used on boards.ie that it is a non issue and the likes of czarcasm is just looking to get offended,he/she knows that by the fact he/she pre-empted quoting stephen fry by telling us not to quote him!

Although I did mis-read the OP too(surely stephen fry would never say 'nobody likes a smart arse'

)

P. Breathnach

Beruthiel wrote: »

I am of the opinion that when a poster uses said word, their opinion can be instantly dismissed as lacking any kind of credibility.

Let them off I say, they are doing more damage to themselves than they are to who ever the comment was directed at.

That means that you can see the poster as a dick, and value their contributions accordingly.

Following that reasoning, the DBAD guideline is a disservice to the boards community, as it deprives us of a useful measure of a poster's value.

Cushie Butterfield

I'd say that the vast majority of people that use the word aren't old enough to know or remember what it originally meant. It's meaning has evolved to a different one & it's only people who do remember the original meaning who find it more offensive.

I'd also say that it's use will probably become dated & 'uncool' like so many other buzz words do.

OldGoat

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

I'd say that the vast majority of people that use the word aren't old enough to know or remember what it originally meant. It's meaning has evolved to a different one & it's only people who do remember the original meaning who find it more offensive.

I'd also say that it's use will probably become dated & 'uncool' like so many other buzz words do.

Thats not right. People will still be offended by the use of words like Spa or Mongol and it's been many a year since they were in common parlance.

Is 'retarded' not part of a two word phrase, 'retarded mentatility'? The phrase should be frowned upon and the new more acceptable term (whatever it happens to be this week) should be used in it's place, but it's up to people to realise that for themselves.

Pointing it out in threads like this is a way of letting some users know that it's not the best word to use and the language has a plethora of other words that could be used in it's place.

However, banning the word retarded is a bit silly, a step too far.

LoLth

Its pretty simple really:

Boards.ie has a policy of not allowing personal abuse. Somebody calls you a retard on boards then they are calling you a name and attacking the poster and not the post. report it and let it go.

We can't start legislating for every word that changes meaning. Its covered under personal abuse.

If you see someone post that their neighbour is a retard, then they're just an insensitive gob****e and that type of comment says a lot more about them than it does about their neighbour.

@Czarcasm, honestly, *any* post can be turned on its head is you just cross out the assertive phrases and fill in the opposite.
Also, does The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders decide medical terminology for the entire world? You state in the opening post and you also correct Ropedrink later that the term retard is no longer a medical term. Is that worldwide or just in the States? What does the Irish equivalent of that body say? or better yet the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems published by the WHO?

Cushie Butterfield

OldGoat wrote: »

Thats not right. People will still be offended by the use of words like Spa or Mongol and it's been many a year since they were in common parlance.

That's my point.

When was the last time you heard or read either of the above words on a regular basis in recent years?

Czarcasm

returnNull wrote: »

I think its all about context.

Calling someone a retard is out of order,but I see nothing wrong with saying a post is retarded or that someones point of view is retarded.If that person gets hurt/upset or offended by it I really dont give a sh1t.

A wonderful sentiment, and so eloquently put too.

Your point of view albeit misguided is a perfect example of the monkeysphere - you don't give a ****e about something that doesn't directly affect you. However not everybody thinks the same as you do, and Nodin referred to a shared space earlier-

Boards then has a duty then to monitor that space and make room for everybody and see that everyone gets an equal hearing, whether one or two in the room could give a shìt, or not, the least they could do is consider that there are others sharing the space besides themselves.

Again I think the word is so little used on boards.ie that it is a non issue

You'd be given to think that, because you're not attuned to hearing it, or seeing it used, so just now I did a quick search on the word "retard" for your benefit (unlikely you'll give a shìt, but nonetheless, others might) -

http://touch.boards.ie/search?q=retard

and the likes of czarcasm is just looking to get offended,he/she knows that by the fact he/she pre-empted quoting stephen fry by telling us not to quote him!

I can at least reassure you I'm not looking for anything, I have enough fcuking headaches on a daily basis to be dealing with and as I posted already- the word "retard" or "retarded" has bothered me for the last 30 years. Now that it's use as a medical term been discontinued, I felt that it was the right time and the right medium for the issue to be highlighted and for Boards and it's members to help in discouraging the use of the word in Irish society.

The reason I knew that somebody would use the Stephen Fry quote is because faux intellectuals are attuned to the word "offended", therefore trip over themselves to wedge it in there without realising that it's showing them up for the feeble minded individuals they are- not only are they are unable to form an original opinion of their own, but they parrot the opinion of the biggest faux intellectual of them all as if his words were manna from literary heaven.

Although I did mis-read the OP too(surely stephen fry would never say 'nobody likes a smart arse' )

He wouldn't because he'd be afraid of his ****e he might offend somebody on the Internet.

Wibbs

Maybe I'm gettin old. Actually there's no maybe about it. Maybe I'm starting to get a pain in my arse with some taking offence where it's clearly not intended. Maybe I'm starting to get a pain in my arse with the rest of us having to tease out the minutiae of eff all. Actually there's no maybe about it.

What next? Banning phrases like "Christ I worked like a slave on that report"? After all the first word might have the crawthumpers up in arms and somebody is bound to think that the word slave insults/demeans black folks(go back far enough and you're insulting Greeks). Unlikely? Well slavery was/is an abhorrent practice, millions were affected and many of them died from it, so if we want to start really taking tweezers to words it's not that unlikely.

If we ban the word retarded when it's not used as a clear insult towards a person or people then this community will have jumped the shark and no mistake.

anncoates

Czarcasm wrote: »

If you find slurring people with mental disorders, many of whom actually DO have access to Boards.ie (through the wonders of technology) funny, then I would respectfully suggest that you keep such jocular humor for your offline company who will have a much greater appreciation of your lack of comedic talent.

I don't find "slurring people with mental disorders" funny at all.

I'm merely pointing out that appears to be a great deal of subjectivity around the use of the word in certain contexts on boards and that many people that use the word appear to not intend it to cause offence to people with mental disorders.

And with respect, your increasingly bellicose soapboxing about it probably won't change that.

Czarcasm

LoLth wrote: »

@Czarcasm, honestly, *any* post can be turned on its head is you just cross out the assertive phrases and fill in the opposite.
Also, does The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders decide medical terminology for the entire world? You state in the opening post and you also correct Ropedrink later that the term retard is no longer a medical term. Is that worldwide or just in the States? What does the Irish equivalent of that body say? or better yet the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems published by the WHO?

LoLth I understand the concept of "your sandbox, your rules", so before I expend any more energy here-

If I can get you a definitive statement from the College of Psychiatry of Ireland regarding the outdated use of the word "retard" in Irish psychiatric medicine, will you then formulate a policy to discourage the use of the word?

(I'm on a train in company at the moment so I can't really make any phone calls, not to mention the piss poor reception, but certainly I'll get back to you on it later. I have a full days presentations ahead of me on the issue of homelessness in Ireland so I need to prepare for those first).

LoLth

Czarcasm wrote: »

If I can get you a definitive statement from the College of Psychiatry of Ireland regarding the outdated use of the word "retard" in Irish psychiatric medicine, will you then formulate a policy to discourage the use of the word?

So, you are suggesting that , if a medical body has decided not to use a word then boards.ie, not being a medical institute, not being in any way affiliated with a medical institute and not allowing dissemination of medical advice, should follow suit and ban the word as well? Even though the word is in common use in media and social circles? ( Robert Downey jr in Tropic Thunder, the Hangover etc as well as television and books - should books be revised to remove the term much like the Noddy books were revised to remove references to Gollywog because it was offensive?)

there is already a provision for "attack the post not the poster" and any use of the word "retard" or any other derogatory comment should be dealt with under that rule. To make specific word-centric rules just confuses the issue and , imho, treats those words as somehow worse than others. An insult is an insult and thats the end of it. At the end of the day, I'm happy to let the mods decide on the context of the language used and not start banning people just for a string of letters that form a pattern we dont like.

As a boards USER I can post whatever I want and I wont get banned for it unless:

I use that word to be uncivil and/or personally attack another poster.
I post inflammatory words/phrases with the intention of getting an adverse reaction (trolling)
I post repeatedly or with no regard for the content of the discussion I am posting into (spamming / off topic trolling)

Exceptions to this are the posting of pornography (not illegal in the country but not allowed on boards.ie) , the posting of abusive, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, indecent, profane, inappropriate, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable Material, except where the content is appropriate to the content of the forum and you have been granted specific permission to do so and subject to our guidelines on said content.

Boards.ie has a broad user base with a broad range of interests that attract people from a broad range of social , political and cultural backgrounds. We cannot put specific rules in place to protect everyone's sensibilities. That would result in a forum that is so sterile and politically correct that no-one could post without a 1000 page guide book detailing a checklist for their post so they can avoid getting banned for breach of decorum. We get around that by leaving the basic rules there and then trusting our mods to make the judgement calls necessary as they arise. Some mods agree with your point of view and have banned the use of the term "retard" in their forums, others dont see it as an issue but will still respond to reports of personal abuse where that term is used to insult another member.

I would suggest that, in future, if you feel strongly about the misuse of the term retard you should, politely and as part of the discussion, point out to the person using it that they are mistaken and should use the correct terminology in future, unless its being used to insult another user, in which case report it as personal abuse and let the mod deal with it. If they arent using it in a professional capacity or to insult another user, PM them with the correct use of the term (again, politely!!!) so that they can be better informed and use the correct term in future should the need arise. Some people wont appreciate it but I, for one, am not averse to having the correct answer pointed out to me and I would take it as a user being considerate if the correction were made privately instead of in public. I'm sure there are many posters who would feel the same way I do about that.

There is a movement growing that is trying to stop the use of the word "retard" and "retarded" to reference people with learning disabilities or mental impairment. Good on them. Its not a word I am aware of using often, if ever myself. If people stop using it, then it wont appear on boards. Banning it wont stop it, it'll just get people banned and carded and piss them off for what they believe is an honest mistake - perhaps they are not aware of the dislike for those words and its just a common phrase for them in everyday life. Censoring it will just be a politically-correct step too far as the word itself is not wrong, its the usage of the word that is wrong. As already pointed out, retarded also means delayed and is a valid engineering term. It is also a term used in gardening iirc (not watering plants regularly will retard their growth).

ejmaztec

LoLth wrote: »

. As already pointed out, retarded also means delayed and is a valid engineering term. It is also a term used in gardening iirc (not watering plants regularly will retard their growth).

I think it safe to assume that 99.9999% of those using the word didn't decide to use it after researching gardening terms, or ignition timing on car engines.

Myrddin

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think it safe to assume that 99.9999% of those using the word didn't decide to use it after researching gardening terms, or ignition timing on car engines.

You can't ban legitimate words because people misuse them either though. The term 'retard' simply speaking was acceptable yesterday, & today it's not due to misuse. Tomorrow we will have a new word that takes its place, & when that starts getting misused, we'll have a new one after that. People have thrown names at each other to insult each others intelligence since forever, 'retard' is the latest in a long lineage of words used for this task. The practice will never change, & banning the word because of it, is over-reacting & ultimately futile.

Yes it's bad taste to use the word, yes it offends some people, yes it's crass. But using the internet, it should be obvious to all, that you're very likely to come up against something you find offensive. Do people walk out of their not expecting to hear the word 'retard' used on the street or in passing?

Mickeroo

I find the notion of banning the word more offensive than the word itself tbh.

P. Breathnach

Mickeroo wrote: »

I find the notion of banning the word more offensive than the word itself tbh.

If a poster in a forum you moderate called another poster a retard, what would you do about it?

Rev Hellfire

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If a poster in a forum you moderate called another poster a retard, what would you do about it?

That would fall foul of the "attack the post not the poster" rule of thumb, so would be typically actioned upon.

hullaballoo

The way I look at it, the precedent of banning specific words is a dangerous precedent.

If the admins ban specific words, people will try to argue that because they used a word that wasn't on the list of banned words, they cannot be sanctioned. You then have all sorts of threads flying around feedback/prison etc. with people whining that they were banned for callings someone a "fcuking lamp" when the word "lamp" isn't offensive.

The corollary is that you could end up banning the use of a word that, when used in a particular way, is perfectly acceptable: the example given above is that "retarded" may be used in relation to engineering, but similarly, "faggot"* has numerous inoffensive meanings.

On the otherhand, "don't be a dick" and the rule against personal abuse are far easier for everyone to understand and don't tie the moderators' hands.

Edit: *I had to lol that the swear filter asterisked this word out!

I don't know what that says about the rest of my post...

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

............

(..................., but certainly I'll get back to you on it later. I have a full days presentations ahead of me on the issue of homelessness in Ireland so I need to prepare for those first).

This is relevant how, exactly?

An appeal to authority isn't going to help here. This isn't an in-house psychiatric discussion board.

ejmaztec

Nodin wrote: »

This is relevant how, exactly?

An appeal to authority isn't going to help here. This isn't an in-house psychiatric discussion board.

If this were, the word would be outlawed as an obvious no-no.

Mickeroo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If a poster in a forum you moderate called another poster a retard, what would you do about it?

Infract them obviously. If they used it in a more general sense I wouldn't care. It's all about context.

Myrddin

ejmaztec wrote: »

If this were, the word would be outlawed as an obvious no-no.

And if it were an engineering/mechanical forum, it wouldn't be.

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

This is relevant how, exactly?

An appeal to authority isn't going to help here. This isn't an in-house psychiatric discussion board.

I love you too Nodin

LoLth thank you for the considered response, much appreciated.

Nodin

ejmaztec wrote: »

If this were, the word would be outlawed as an obvious no-no.

No, it would be "outlawed" as it's considered antiquated and inaccurate. Specialised discussions tend to require very carefully defined terms.