Retarded.

ejmaztec

EnterNow wrote: »

And if it were an engineering/mechanical forum, it wouldn't be.

If used in the correct context, it shouldn't be, but it's used everywhere else and has absolutely nothing to with engineering.

Nodin wrote: »

No, it would be "outlawed" as it's considered antiquated and inaccurate. Specialised discussions tend to require very carefully defined terms.

I assume that you mean "wouldn't be outlawed", but in my opinion mental health professionals would take it as read that it wouldn't be used, and that none of them would be seen dead using the word in the context of mental health.

Myrddin

ejmaztec wrote: »

If used in the correct context, it shouldn't be, but it's used everywhere else and has absolutely nothing to with engineering.

As I said before, to ban words because people misuse them really is pointless. They'll find another word to misuse to convey the same point.

baby and crumble

I'm still surprised people think that you can just choose to be hurt or offended by something. Like there's a switch. Ok, some people take things too far, but nobody seems to care about the individuals who are genuinely upset.

Just to say, I don't agree with banning words. I just agree with questioning why people are using those words, and trying to educate them by letting them know that their usage does genuinely hurt people I love and makes them miserable. Why anyone would be ok with using a word or phrase that you KNOW does that is beyond me. It's actually incredibly selfish.

returnNull

baby and crumble wrote: »

I'm still surprised people think that you can just choose to be hurt or offended by something. Like there's a switch. Ok, some people take things too far, but nobody seems to care about the individuals who are genuinely upset.

Just to say, I don't agree with banning words. I just agree with questioning why people are using those words, and trying to educate them by letting them know that their usage does genuinely hurt people I love and makes them miserable. Why anyone would be ok with using a word or phrase that you KNOW does that is beyond me. It's actually incredibly selfish.

There's nothing wrong using the word retarded when it's not used as a clear insult towards a person,if you want to get upset or get upset for other people when its used in that context,it really is your look out and again it's PC at its worse.

ejmaztec

EnterNow wrote: »

As I said before, to ban words because people misuse them really is pointless. They'll find another word to misuse to convey the same point.

Does this mean that we can use words such as "chink" any old way we like, we could after all be discussing the light appearing through a gap in the curtains?

Myrddin

ejmaztec wrote: »

Does this mean that we can use words such as "chink" any old way we like, we could after all be discussing the light appearing through a gap in the curtains?

I'd suggest you go over the thread again, these points have been made & refuted a few times now, it's common sense really.

If you say "X user is a silly chink", that's racist, personal abuse, & you're getting a holiday.
If you say "The Venetian blinds in my bedroom allow a chink of sunlight to hit my eye at 6am every morning", then there's no problem using that word.

Myrddin

Similarly,

"X user is a retard" is personal abuse, & will be dealt with on those grounds.
"If I retard the ignition timing on my Ford Escort, what affect will that have on power & fuel consumption" is a perfectly valid use of the word retard.

wonderfulname

returnNull wrote: »

There's nothing wrong using the word retarded when it's not used as a clear insult towards a person,if you want to get upset or get upset for other people when its used in that context,it really is your look out and again it's PC at its worse.

So it's insulting to be called "retarded" but not to be mentally disabled and have to listen to things and people being called such in a negative fashion. I'm going to agree with the selfish verdict. Could be worse, could be PC gone mad.

LoLth

baby and crumble wrote: »

I'm still surprised people think that you can just choose to be hurt or offended by something. Like there's a switch. Ok, some people take things too far, but nobody seems to care about the individuals who are genuinely upset.

If you are referring to my post about growing a skin, I should clarify, I do care about people that are genuinely upset. And I used to be suprised that people can choose to be hurt or offended but I've seen it, multiple times, on this site and elsewhere. I've seen internet users get upset and angry on behalf of someone else even when the person the comment was aimed at doesnt see any harm done. I've seen people argue til the very meaning of the word through history and its etymological roots are *fully* explored before they'll admit the possibility that the culprit , who they have never spoken to before, have never met and who knows nothing at all about their personal life, may not have intended a direct and personal attack. And I've spent time, a lot of time, dealing with these people. I've been patient and I've been polite as I possibly can. Only once have I given up and gone "you just dont get it because you dont want to get it. go away and bother someone else because I've had enough". If I didnt care about users being upset I wouldnt do any of that, I'd just make a rule to ban the words I dont like and be on my way - and *still* my advice is , make allowances for differences in culture / society / upbringing , accept that not everyone will be as polite as you and if you take offense, re-read it with a clear head and report if its still abuse in your eyes or just let it go and make mental note not to bother with that user in future.

Just to say, I don't agree with banning words. I just agree with questioning why people are using those words, and trying to educate them by letting them know that their usage does genuinely hurt people I love and makes them miserable. Why anyone would be ok with using a word or phrase that you KNOW does that is beyond me. It's actually incredibly selfish.

you do realise that we previously had a long discussion about whether or not to ban people from making jokes, throwing insults and posting disturbing links in threads offering condolences to the families of those who have passed away.... we actually had to bring in a rule to prevent this behaviour because some people see it as a basic right. People thinking its ok to use words that the majority accept as hurtful or insensitive is, unfortunately, not a suprise to me. But, we do our best to look after the majority who are just normal people looking to have a chat.

Its the internet. Some people see the supposed anonymity as a license to let the part of themselves that they keep in check so they can actually survive as part of a society slip out and have free reign. Others just treat it exactly as they would if they were in the room personally. The majority use it as a tool to allow them to discuss / learn / inform.

returnNull

wonderfulname wrote: »

So it's insulting to be called "retarded" but not to be mentally disabled and have to listen to things and people being called such in a negative fashion. I'm going to agree with the selfish verdict. Could be worse, could be PC gone mad.

get offended over whatever you want.Its been pointed out time and time again,depending on the context the word retard/retarded is valid. If you are someone who gets offended that easily thats your look out. Dont see why anyone has to pander to oversensitive souls.

LoLth

returnNull wrote: »

Dont see why anyone has to pander to oversensitive souls.

I also dont see why some people have to deliberately go out of their way to antagonise them either. A little less sensitivity and a little less focus on a persons "right" to insult and hopefully we can all have a nice chat somewhere in the middle.

returnNull

LoLth wrote: »

A little less sensitivity and a little less focus on a persons "right" to insult and hopefully we can all have a nice chat somewhere in the middle.

yeah with a butchered language only because of the fear of offending someone that doesnt understand the concept of context.Context is everything!

Scruffles

thanks to czarcazm for being a different voice on this for once,sorry for only just seeing it am really struggling with severe mental health issues at the moment.



not just on boards but am forever trying to make people aware of the effects of language without people jumping in and yelling about it being PC but it seems no matter how well czarcazms put it across people have assumed its about wanting to be offended or having a 'thin skin',it really isnt-its easy to make assumptions if are not the particular group that is affected by specific slurs of any form.

as many probably know from the countless times have tried getting view across- am intelectualy disabled and one of those this label had been aimed at though in the UK it is medicaly called learning disability [and what america calls learning disability is something else; its what the UK calls learning difficulty,but thats another story].
had grown up recieving severe verbal and physical bullying using every disablist term that had been available at the time and they were even used by the teachers on us ,retard only came here in the mid nineties due to southpark;am a fan of south park and always had been in case anyone wants to make a remark about the thickness of skin.

retard has profound and devastating connotations for us,exactly the same way connotations of racial slurs have for people who are the targets of them,look how often black people for example get abused for 'playing the race card' because they show offence for a racial slur....people havent got the right/insight to say racial slurs havent any significant connotations for that person and its the same with us.
slurs of any kind whether being directly used to the person or indirect use show a utter lack of respect and care to the group the word is aimed at,and its rather showing that instead of people choosing slurs which have heavy representation on the internet, the most abused slurs are those which involve a very vulnerable group who are all on the lower functioning spectrum-with many being unable to come here and voice their concern on the term for various reasons.

the majority of people with intelectual disability or staff who work with us have personaly spoke to about the slur dont actualy think it shoud be banned, banning things of any kind doesnt work,the common interest seems to be that we want people
to get educated on what theyre actualy using and develop a bit of open mindedness and understanding for how other people experience disablism every day in their lives without coming to chill out online and getting it in their face here to, and its just as bad when we see people complaining about people using racial,gender or sexuality slurs but the same people throw around retard without offering the same basic respect they ask for.

K-9

The one thing I've learned from this discussion and time modding, just ban the term pc and you aren't going to far wrong. Much less noise and far more quality and rationale debate., on a wide range of issues.

ejmaztec

EnterNow wrote: »

I'd suggest you go over the thread again, these points have been made & refuted a few times now, it's common sense really.

If you say "X user is a silly chink", that's racist, personal abuse, & you're getting a holiday.
If you say "The Venetian blinds in my bedroom allow a chink of sunlight to hit my eye at 6am every morning", then there's no problem using that word.

Nothing has been refuted in my eyes, and my value system remains perfectly intact. The world and his dog know the significance of the two examples that you've used. It's the non-personal use of the word that some people have issues with e.g. "so and so's retarded", or "that's retarded", and defending this usage by referring to gardening and engineering returns is pure bunkum, when the world and his dog also know that the usage is nothing to do with gardening or engineering.

People using the word either don't know the significance, or don't care.

Myrddin

I agree such uses are in bad taste, but they are mis-uses of a legitimate word as I've pointed out.

Rochelle

Czarcasm wrote: »

LoLth I understand the concept of "your sandbox, your rules", so before I expend any more energy here-

If I can get you a definitive statement from the College of Psychiatry of Ireland regarding the outdated use of the word "retard" in Irish psychiatric medicine, will you then formulate a policy to discourage the use of the word?

(I'm on a train in company at the moment so I can't really make any phone calls, not to mention the piss poor reception, but certainly I'll get back to you on it later. I have a full days presentations ahead of me on the issue of homelessness in Ireland so I need to prepare for those first).

Are you for real?

Czarcasm

Rochelle wrote: »

Are you for real?

Who pìssed in your cornflakes sweetheart?


To answer your question though- No. No I'm not for real. As I said to Wibbs earlier this morning-

Czarcasm wrote: »

So to say looking for crap on Boards is my bag- I may look like a duck, I may walk like a duck, but I'm actually a platypus!

wonderfulname

Czarcasm wrote: »

sweetheart

In a thread where you're claiming peoples language is such an affront that you shouldn't have to explain why, do I really have to tell you where you went wrong here?

Czarcasm

wonderfulname wrote: »

In a thread where you're claiming peoples language is such an affront that you shouldn't have to explain why, do I really have to tell you where you went wrong here?

I know what you're thinking wonderfulname, and you're right, it was a condescending, sexist, dismissive and patronising remark.

I had a look at the users 30 post history and figured she'd appreciate that turnabout is fair play given her own particularly condescending, dismissive and patronising remark that was more a personal attack than actually seeking to add anything to the discussion.

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

I know what you're thinking wonderfulname, and you're right, it was a condescending, sexist, dismissive and patronising remark.

I had a look at the users 30 post history and figured she'd appreciate that turnabout is fair play given her own particularly condescending, dismissive and patronising remark that was more a personal attack than actually seeking to add anything to the discussion.

So its ok when you do it, essentially - it's when the less enlightened go beyond their permitted vocabulary that the problem starts

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

So its ok when you do it, essentially - it's when the less enlightened go beyond their permitted vocabulary that the problem starts

Nodin as you said yourself many times, if you have a problem with my posts, report them and let the Moderators deal with it. I'm tired of dealing with you myself tbh and I think you know that well enough by now as I have made it clear to you on a number of occasions.

I am satisfied that the discussion on this issue was well received and discussed from all sides and as far as I'm concerned a satisfactory resolution was reached in LoLth's last post.

If you have something else to contribute on this particular issue, by all means do, otherwise start your own thread on whatever your issue is.

Alternatively you are more than welcome to PM me should you need any further clarification of my opinion on a particular issue so we don't drag this thread off topic.

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nodin (.......)off topic.

The thread is entirely on-topic. Your post was an excellent example of the compromises involved in using a shared space, the perils of limiting language deemed offensive by some but not others and the importance of context - all of which have come up.

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

The thread is entirely on-topic. Your post was an excellent example of the compromises involved in using a shared space, the perils of limiting language deemed offensive by some but not others and the importance of context - all of which have come up.

Nodin I've never done this before, but if it's ok with the Moderators here, I'm going to quote an extract from a PM I sent to somebody on the 27th, that's three days ago-

I live in hope with the faith in the belief that Nodin will come good one day and surprise me with an opinion that's not only on topic but will actually contribute to the discussion. It takes an immense leap of faith though to imagine that he might actually change my perspective on an issue, but again- some of the most mundane trivialities that other people take for granted in life never cease to amaze and amuse me, because I leave myself open to believing in the impossible...

And, well, I need to sit down! We've finally come to an understanding and actually agree on something! If that's not a result, seriously, I'm well chuffed right now.

And that's not being sarcastic or disrespectful or patronising or any of the rest of it. I truly am happy we agree on something three days after I've said it when I was thinking in a time frame of three decades before we'd agree on something!

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nodin I've (................)before we'd agree on something!

An irrelevance that personalises the debate.

Czarcasm

Nodin wrote: »

An irrelevance that personalises the debate.

Discussion Nodin, discussion.


Anyway, that was nice for the three minutes it lasted, and speaking of which-

I'm done with this particular discussion now, it has achieved it's aims and then some.

clairefontaine

There is a misunderstanding about freedom of speech on these boards.

First of all freedom of speech is an American right and all it means is that the GOVERNMENT can't stop you or punish you for free speech. So for example in a public library [government paid for] you can watch porn on the internet [protected by 1st amendment] but a private library would be allowed to say, NOT HERE BUDDY.

Secondly, even then freedom of speech is not absolute. You can't for example, watch child pornography in a public library, or anywhere else for that matter. There are limits.

So you guys are in Ireland, which has blasphemy and all sorts of tight libel laws and on a private website. No such thing as freedom of speech here I'm afraid.

So let's move it from the legal standpoint to the philosophical standpoint. On one hand you have people who think they can say whatever they want, whenever they want and to whomever they want and that others should just get thick skinned and take it on the chin. Then on the other end of the spectrum you have super hypersensitive folks who get offended by everything and anything. Both ends of this spectrum are tyrannical because on end is abusive and the other end is ultimately prohibitive. Everything in between is negotiation. And that can be uncomfortable and tricky but ultimately necessary if you want to avoid tyranny, which I think is what most people want to do.

Now if you want to cry free speech in the case of using the term retard or any other derogatory put down, you might also consider that if you are going to import values such as the first amendment, for the sake of consistency and context you might also have to import the idea that all men are created equal. Now when you do that, you might consider that you lose credibility when crying out for free speech when you have just violated a fundamental philosophical right regarding equality, when you have attempted to demote someone else by using the word retarded.

hullaballoo

clairefontaine wrote: »

There is a misunderstanding about freedom of speech on these boards.

First of all freedom of speech is an American right and all it means is that the GOVERNMENT can't stop you or punish you for free speech...

Secondly, even then freedom of speech is not absolute. You can't for example, watch child pornography in a public library, or anywhere else for that matter. There are limits.

So you guys are in Ireland, which has blasphemy and all sorts of tight libel laws and on a private website. No such thing as freedom of speech here I'm afraid....

Just to be clear, we do have freedom of speech/expression laws that apply to Ireland, both under the Constitution (Article 40.6.1) and in line with the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003 (albeit subordinate to the Constitution).

I absolutely agree that the right is fettered here more than it is in the USA and even the above Article 40.6.1 limits the right on its own terms. However, it is incorrect to say there's "no such thing as freedom of speech here".

Generally, though, there is no such thing as an unfettered or absolute right under Irish Constitutional jurisprudence. As such, freedom of expression cannot be said to have any lesser a status than any other constitutional or fundamental right.


Edit: sorry for the OT post, I just wouldn't like people going around thinking they have absolutely no right to freedom of expression in Ireland. clairefontaine is 100% on the money wrt this being a private site, which takes it beyond the ambit of the right.

SerialComplaint

LoLth wrote: »

Its pretty simple really:

Boards.ie has a policy of not allowing personal abuse. Somebody calls you a retard on boards then they are calling you a name and attacking the poster and not the post. report it and let it go.

LoLth wrote: »

I would suggest that, in future, if you feel strongly about the misuse of the term retard you should, politely and as part of the discussion, point out to the person using it that they are mistaken and should use the correct terminology in future, unless its being used to insult another user, in which case report it as personal abuse and let the mod deal with it. If they arent using it in a professional capacity or to insult another user, PM them with the correct use of the term (again, politely!!!) so that they can be better informed and use the correct term in future should the need arise. Some people wont appreciate it but I, for one, am not averse to having the correct answer pointed out to me and I would take it as a user being considerate if the correction were made privately instead of in public. I'm sure there are many posters who would feel the same way I do about that.

This issue has come up a few times over the years on boards. The suggestion to report it to the mods is generally a waste of time, as most mods do not act on such reports most of the time, in my experience. If you try calling out other users on their inappropriate behaviour, you get accused of being off-topic.

LoLth wrote: »

There is a movement growing that is trying to stop the use of the word "retard" and "retarded" to reference people with learning disabilities or mental impairment. Good on them. Its not a word I am aware of using often, if ever myself. If people stop using it, then it wont appear on boards. Banning it wont stop it, it'll just get people banned and carded and piss them off for what they believe is an honest mistake - perhaps they are not aware of the dislike for those words and its just a common phrase for them in everyday life. Censoring it will just be a politically-correct step too far as the word itself is not wrong, its the usage of the word that is wrong. As already pointed out, retarded also means delayed and is a valid engineering term. It is also a term used in gardening iirc (not watering plants regularly will retard their growth).

Why is censoring of 'retarded' considered to be a 'politically correct' step too far, but censoring of ****** n-i-g-g-e-r, or of paki , or of ****** f-a-g-g-o-t or of spa is considered normal. Either proper censorship or no censorship please.

Just FYI, this is from a US campaign, and might help to explain why this word caused great offence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T549VoLca_Q

Mickeroo

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Why is censoring of 'retarded' considered to be a 'politically correct' step too far, but censoring of ****** n-i-g-g-e-r, or of paki , or of ****** f-a-g-g-o-t or of spa is considered normal. Either proper censorship or no censorship please.

Just FYI, this is from a US campaign, and might help to explain why this word caused great offence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T549VoLca_Q

It's because there's nowhere near the same level of stygma around the word for the majority of people. The whole reason there's a campaign like the one in the video to stop people using the word is because the word is considered socially acceptable by lots of people.