Soccer draft legends discussion thread

Moneymaker

I find whatever your first 2-3 players are will dictate the rest of your side. Snapping up defenders early on I think would lead to a defensive, hard to beat side whereas stacking up a bunch of attackers early on would mean a more 'Keegan-esque' style. Whoever gets the best balance is generally who wins imo.

Also, picking star players is great, picking star players that can play a ton of different positions is even better. Beckenbeaur, Di Stefano, Messi and C Ronaldo are great for this, Beckenbaeur in particular.

Copper_pipe

Said I better clear this up now, I won't be online between 9am-4pm for the rest of this week. I should have time to vote next week, sure its only the Leaving Cert!

Knex*

When we get to the end of the 1st round, are we working are way back up, as in Trippie gets another go, or does it go back to Jax Teller?

Apologies if this has already been stated and I've missed it.

Blatter

Knex. wrote: »

When we get to the end of the 1st round, are we working are way back up, as in Trippie gets another go, or does it go back to Jax Teller?

Apologies if this has already been stated and I've missed it.

Trippie will get two picks and it'll work it's way up from there, it'd be grossly unfair otherwise!

eagle eye

I'd like to be added to the backup list.

Morzadec

Moneymaker wrote: »

Flabbergasted it took 6 picks for Pele to be taken.

Not too surprising. Pele was playing at a time when football was a little bit slower. Goalkeepers were far poorer back then so his goal stats will be less impressive. I would've personally had Ronaldo ahead of him as my number 1 striker pick.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Maradona a steal at 3.

4 in fact

Was delighted to get him - he could've easily been a number 1 pick. Was expecting to get Brazilian Ronaldo which I would've been more than happy with, but Maradona is a nice surprise.

Just an idea for the draft. It would be cool if people threw up a link to a Youtube video or something for the player they picked. Obviously some people aren't around or are posting by phone but it would be fun to see some of these players best moments and have them all on the thread.

As I didn't get to do it yesterday, here are some of Maradona's best moments

carlop

Maradona at 4 is an absolute steal.

Blatter

Thought Puskas and Eusebio would have went a bit earlier, both very good picks at this stage.

Jax Teller

I'm slightly reluctant to select a really old player as football has changed a lot over the years . How would you fit an inside left into a modern day formation ?

Bounty Hunter

First name off my if they somehow last till me in rd2 list gone in Garrincha. Could be a good thing as I doubt anyone's seen him play much buthe is always mentioned in best rw (team) of all time discussions

Morzadec

Jax Teller wrote: »

I'm slightly reluctant to select a really old player as football has changed a lot over the years . How would you fit an inside left into a modern day formation ?

Tactically, physically - there will be some question marks over picking players that played in the days of the 2-3-5 formations.

I would take Ronaldo (both of them) over any of the old greats (Pele, Eusebio, Puskas, de Stefano).

While these guys dominated the game at the time, and deserve absolute respect for reaching the absolute pinnacle of football of the time, I believe that, for example, a modern day C.Ronaldo transported back to the 50s and 60s would probably tear up the defences and goalkeepers they faced to an even greater extent.

whatawaster

Morzadec wrote: »

Tactically, physically - there will be some question marks over picking players that played in the days of the 2-3-5 formations.

I would take Ronaldo (both of them) over any of the old greats (Pele, Eusebio, Puskas, de Stefano).

While these guys dominated the game at the time, and deserve absolute respect for reaching the absolute pinnacle of football of the time, I believe that, for example, a modern day C.Ronaldo transported back to the 50s and 60s would probably tear up the defences and goalkeepers they faced to an even greater extent.

What about Puskas, Pele, Eusebio, De Stefano etc transported into the 21st century with all the advances in fitness, sports science, footballs, football boots, pitch quality etc?

Morzadec

whatawaster wrote: »

What about Puskas, Pele, Eusebio, De Stefano etc transported into the 21st century with all the advances in fitness, sports science, footballs, football boots, pitch quality etc?

Who knows, more difficult to measure. I believe the game evolves over time. Tactically, physically, technically the game develops (remember how surprised everyone was when Cruyff did his famous turn? Kids are being taught that now as a basic technique. You see fullbacks using it regularly as a normal move.) I'm sure they would all still be top players, but I'm not sure of they would be in the Messi/Ronaldo bracket.

You judge the player as you see them. I never saw them playing - all I can say from watching clips from that era is that the pace, power and athleticism (not to mention the technique) of someone like Ronaldo would be almost impossible for defences to deal with.

whatawaster

Morzadec wrote: »

Who knows, more difficult to measure.

No, equally as difficult to measure. Impossible, in fact.

Transport Ronaldo back to the 50's, fine, but Ronaldo in the 50's is not as fit, not as strong, won't have the same equipment and won't be able to manipulate a football in the same way he can today.

PerrinV2

Morzadec wrote: »

Tactically, physically - there will be some question marks over picking players that played in the days of the 2-3-5 formations.

I would take Ronaldo (both of them) over any of the old greats (Pele, Eusebio, Puskas, de Stefano).

While these guys dominated the game at the time, and deserve absolute respect for reaching the absolute pinnacle of football of the time, I believe that, for example, a modern day C.Ronaldo transported back to the 50s and 60s would probably tear up the defences and goalkeepers they faced to an even greater extent.

Ronaldo would be hacked(maybe not hacked but tackled alot harder) out of it......and no free given.

Morzadec

PerrinV2 wrote: »

Ronaldo would be hacked(maybe not hacked but tackled alot harder) out of it......and no free given.

That's a good point - even looking at that Maradona video earlier it's crazy how officiating has changed in the last couple of decades. He had players flying into his legs and he would brush them off or just get straight back to his feet.

Ronaldo would certainly need to toughen up if he were to play back in the day!

Donnielighto

i love these drafts, think the big thing ppl forget about is the battling, ball winning midfield and a lot focus on strikers and centre backs, win midfield and the game gets a lot easier

Moneymaker

Morzadec wrote: »

Who knows, more difficult to measure. I believe the game evolves over time. Tactically, physically, technically the game develops (remember how surprised everyone was when Cruyff did his famous turn? Kids are being taught that now as a basic technique. You see fullbacks using it regularly as a normal move.) I'm sure they would all still be top players, but I'm not sure of they would be in the Messi/Ronaldo bracket.

You judge the player as you see them. I never saw them playing - all I can say from watching clips from that era is that the pace, power and athleticism (not to mention the technique) of someone like Ronaldo would be almost impossible for defences to deal with.

Look at the pitches back then? And how heavy the ball was, old leather boots.

To say the greats of the past wouldn't make it today is ridiculous.

SlickRic

you need your eye-catching, effective, forward thinking players though, especially in a game where any footballer ever is available.

i think your really elite forward players are a smaller pool than those who can make a solid midfield, or defence for that matter.

what i mean is, the absolute best players of all time are generally forward players.

it's hard to articulate properly, but I hope I'm making sense.

Pro. F

Jax Teller wrote: »

I'm slightly reluctant to select a really old player as football has changed a lot over the years . How would you fit an inside left into a modern day formation ?

From what I understand those inside left/right positions were very similar to what we would think of as a no10/second striker these days. And I would guess the famous players who played those positions that will go in this draft will be the very flexible players - lads like di Stefano and Puskas who could play anywhere in the attack and apparently played something like total football a lot of the time.

Also, don't forget the WM formation was how teams were still written up for years (decades I think) after the formation was no longer being used.

Morzadec wrote: »

Who knows, more difficult to measure. I believe the game evolves over time. Tactically, physically, technically the game develops (remember how surprised everyone was when Cruyff did his famous turn? Kids are being taught that now as a basic technique. You see fullbacks using it regularly as a normal move.) I'm sure they would all still be top players, but I'm not sure of they would be in the Messi/Ronaldo bracket.

You judge the player as you see them. I never saw them playing - all I can say from watching clips from that era is that the pace, power and athleticism (not to mention the technique) of someone like Ronaldo would be almost impossible for defences to deal with.

Just on the technique, I was watching a highlight video of some famous old Barca player the other day (can't remember his name) and he really did have properly impressive dribbling skills that would still stand out today. Comparing old players to the modern era is a very tricky question though.

Just in case any of you don't know, you can find a huge number of full games from years past on youtube/dailymotion/vimeo these days. They're usually World Cup, European Championship and European Cup finals, semis and quarters, but plenty of lesser games and friendlies too. Just search the year, team and competition you want and filter results by length to get the full games.

LuckyLloyd

I'd suggest that you waste time jumping down the rabbit hole of 'oh well, fitness levels and the pace of the game were totally different a half century ago'. The best would have been right up there if their natural ability and footballing brains were transported in time to a different era.

There is a massive, massive difference between pre 1986 WC and post 1994 WC in terms of physical prepardness and accepted training techniques at the top end of the game. The Liverpool teams that reached five European Cup Finals drank like fish; ate giant plates of greasy stodgy carbs and didn't train much outside of ultra competitive five a side type games. There were weight gain penalties which led players to starving themselves between the post match piss up on a Saturday night and the Monday morning weigh in. Even Maradona would have needed better training and lifestyle to be as dominant in the modern game as he was in the late 80's.

In my opinion you have to leave this stuff out of the equation. Going down a route of 'oh well, George Best was great but would never have cut it physically in the modern game' is silly. He would have cut it because even he would have been far, far fitter coming through the modern academy systems, etc.

Don't spoil this for yourselves. Take players on their merits.

Bounty Hunter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd suggest that you waste time jumping down the rabbit hole of 'oh well, fitness levels and the pace of the game were totally different a half century ago'. The best would have been right up there if their natural ability and footballing brains were transported in time to a different era.

There is a massive, massive difference between pre 1986 WC and post 1994 WC in terms of physical prepardness and accepted training techniques at the top end of the game. The Liverpool teams that reached five European Cup Finals drank like fish; ate giant plates of greasy stodgy carbs and didn't train much outside of ultra competitive five a side type games. There were weight gain penalties which led players to starving themselves between the post match piss up on a Saturday night and the Monday morning weigh in. Even Maradona would have needed better training and lifestyle to be as dominant in the modern game as he was in the late 80's.

In my opinion you have to leave this stuff out of the equation. Going down a route of 'oh well, George Best was great but would never have cut it physically in the modern game' is silly. He would have cut it because even he would have been far, far fitter coming through the modern academy systems, etc.

Don't spoil this for yourselves. Take players on their merits.

Agree with you and think people will but I must admit ive been enjoying the conversation and sure no matter what it will be up to each individual voter to decide how good each team / player is when they vote, everyone can have a different interpretation no matter what is said on the this discussion thread

bucketybuck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Don't spoil this for yourselves. Take players on their merits.

When it comes to the votes you can't ignore it though.

If you are magically lifting players at their peak and putting them on a football field, ignoring all outside factors, then the fact is that the modern players will blitz the older players. If we could really do this then we would absolutely have to pick players from after 1994 or there about.

You lift Bobby Moore at his peak and put him on a football field, fact is he won't be able to handle somebody like Ronaldo, he will never have faced pace and power like it!

SlickRic

bucketybuck wrote: »

When it comes to the votes you can't ignore it though.

you can, and should.

the Wigan team of this year would have a great chance against a "Greatest XI" pre-1986, including Moore, Best, Pelé...purely on the fitness factor.

for this to be fun, you cannot take the "fitness" thing too seriously.

Lovely Bloke

Pro. F wrote: »

From what I understand those inside left/right positions were very similar to what we would think of as a no10/second striker these days. .

I think they are more like "inverted wingers" of today - but they'd have conventional wingers out wider again, in the 2-3-5 formation

left winger--inside left--centre forward--inside right--right winger

the wingers go around the outside, while the inside forwards head into the box

Pro. F

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I think they are more like "inverted wingers" of today - but they'd have conventional wingers out wider again, in the 2-3-5 formation

left winger--inside left--centre forward--inside right--right winger

the wingers go around the outside, while the inside forwards head into the box

Yeah, that makes sense. Thinking about it, I would think it was as wide range of types of inside forward as there are inverted wingers these days. From proper pacey dribblers like Robben to creative types like Pedro. I'd guess there were plenty of each type.

I think all the inside forwards who go in the draft will be the most famous, most skilful ones who were very flexible players so I doubt they'll be hard to fit into a formation anyway.

Trippie

I was debating picking puskas, have read a lot about him and the Hungary side he spearheaded. In the end I went for garrincha because there is no debating his ability and reputation as the best ever.

eagle eye

I have to say I was shocked to see Maradona not go first or at the very worst second and I'm also shocked at who hasn't been picked yet.

Bounty Hunter

forgot to reply to this earlier

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd like to be added to the backup list.

Yurt and Seaneh are ahead of you though and with only 16 involved I dunno if you all will be needed but sure tis no harm having you guys listed even if you dont take part as I always think the views of non drafters is very interesting on these things

LuckyLloyd

bucketybuck wrote: »

When it comes to the votes you can't ignore it though.

If you are magically lifting players at their peak and putting them on a football field, ignoring all outside factors, then the fact is that the modern players will blitz the older players. If we could really do this then we would absolutely have to pick players from after 1994 or there about.

You lift Bobby Moore at his peak and put him on a football field, fact is he won't be able to handle somebody like Ronaldo, he will never have faced pace and power like it!

The Crystal Palace side that played yesterday would beat the Brazil 1970 WC winning side if you bended time and had them play. They'd just blow them away physically. Does that mean you draft Zaha over Jarzinho? Does it ****.

bucketybuck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Crystal Palace side that played yesterday would beat the Brazil 1970 WC winning side if you bended time and had them play. They'd just blow them away physically. Does that mean you draft Zaha over Jarzinho? Does it ****.

My point related to people having to make a vote between two close teams, and the fact is if I look at a team with Ronaldo up front, and the other team has Bobby Moore in defence then I will be only human to point out that in a match Ronaldo's pace will absolutely destroy Bobby Moore. Perhaps thats enough to get my vote one way or the other.

That doesnt take away from Bobby Moores legacy, this is all in the context of winning this internet competition, and I would wager the physicality of a team with more modern players as opposed to older generation players might easily be judged as more likely to win any fictional match up.

Bounty Hunter

using the past 2 posts as examples, lads can we try and use only people who have been drafted already for examples if possible not that we dont know about these guys

Knex*

Redzerdog taking Romario. Was hoping he would slip through. Thought he just might tbh.

Morzadec

Romario was good but there's lots of great Centre Forwards. To be honest Romario wouldn't even be my first choice of those still left.

Disappointed to see Ronaldinho and Xavi taken. Both very solid picks. Was hoping they might slip down to me.

whatawaster

I really don't get why Roberto Carlos is so highly rated to be honest.

Morzadec

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Crystal Palace side that played yesterday would beat the Brazil 1970 WC winning side if you bended time and had them play. They'd just blow them away physically. Does that mean you draft Zaha over Jarzinho? Does it ****.

Apart from the discussion about the values of older players in these teams, do people think Crystal Palace would beat Brazil 1970? I don't really know either way.... It's hard to judge to what extent the fitness/physical advantage would play a factor. I suppose if you looked at other sports such as tennis, McEnroe wouldn't have a chance against Number 100 in the world of today. But football is probably quite different.

Funnily enough I posited the same question to a friend earlier, but current Liverpool against Brazil 1970. He said Brazil would win, while I leaned towards Liverpool.

I know I was arguing against the value of older players earlier, but if you watch Pele play he would surely be playing at a very high level today given his natural ability. Surely the Kevin Phillips of today would have nothing on the Pele of yesteryear, even taking into account all the advantages modern players have.

G.K.

Xavi was high on my list as well.

Amirani

I'm surprised to see Ronaldinho fall so far. He was almost universally lauded as the best in the World at one point. I'm not sure you could say the same about Carlos and Romario for example.

SlickRic

plenty of players gave fallen through the net so far.

Carlos going this early when you think of whose still available is mental.

also, Ronaldinho falling that far is crazy. super value at this stage.

Knex*

Yeah, was delighted to be able to get him tbh. Had a few other players in mind, but like mentioned, too much value for the 20+ pick or whatever it was.

event

bucketybuck wrote: »

When it comes to the votes you can't ignore it though.

If you are magically lifting players at their peak and putting them on a football field, ignoring all outside factors, then the fact is that the modern players will blitz the older players. If we could really do this then we would absolutely have to pick players from after 1994 or there about.

You lift Bobby Moore at his peak and put him on a football field, fact is he won't be able to handle somebody like Ronaldo, he will never have faced pace and power like it!

I'm sorry, you cannot say "fact" when no one knows.

You have no clue how Bobby Moore would be against ronaldo. You can guess, or give your opinion, but neither are fact

Bounty Hunter

Can one of the next people to pick also head over to random.org an randomize this list and post the results at the same time

Jax Teller
Bounty Hunter
IncognitoMan
Morzadec
G.K
Copper_pipe
Blatter
Moneymaker
Bucketybuck
Knex.
ITT-Pat
redzerdrog
eugeneious
Eli Manning
whatawaster
Trippie

if its done in conjunction with a pick then we wont be waiting on a draw at any point, now is early enough to let people know if they will have an early/late pick to plan for and if someone different does it each time then it avoids anyone (me I guess) having control of each draw.

Trippie

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Can one of the next people to pick also head over to random.org an randomize this list and post the results at the same time

Jax Teller
Bounty Hunter
IncognitoMan
Morzadec
G.K
Copper_pipe
Blatter
Moneymaker
Bucketybuck
Knex.
ITT-Pat
redzerdrog
eugeneious
Eli Manning
whatawaster
Trippie

if its done in conjunction with a pick then we wont be waiting on a draw at any point, now is early enough to let people know if they will have an early/late pick to plan for and if someone different does it each time then it avoids anyone (me I guess) having control of each draw.

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Timestamp: 2013-05-29 06:27:07 UTC

Trippie

12 - redzerdrog
1 - jaxteller
5 -G.K
6 - Copper_pipe
16 - Trippie
14 - Eli Manning
10 - Knex
2 - Bounty Hunter
9 - BucketyBuck
15 - whatawaster
3 - IncognitoMan
13 - eugenious
7 - Blatter
8 - Moneymaker
11 - ITT-Pat
4 - Morzadec

Bounty Hunter

cheers trippie, added to the other thread as the rd3 draw which will be reversed in rd4

LuckyLloyd

Morzadec wrote: »

Apart from the discussion about the values of older players in these teams, do people think Crystal Palace would beat Brazil 1970? I don't really know either way.... It's hard to judge to what extent the fitness/physical advantage would play a factor. I suppose if you looked at other sports such as tennis, McEnroe wouldn't have a chance against Number 100 in the world of today. But football is probably quite different.

Funnily enough I posited the same question to a friend earlier, but current Liverpool against Brazil 1970. He said Brazil would win, while I leaned towards Liverpool.

I know I was arguing against the value of older players earlier, but if you watch Pele play he would surely be playing at a very high level today given his natural ability. Surely the Kevin Phillips of today would have nothing on the Pele of yesteryear, even taking into account all the advantages modern players have.

This is a topic that really annoys me.

Football took a long time dragging itself into modernity when it comes to physical preperation but it's there now. The Brazil 1970 team would all have been very tough men, no doubt, and highly skilled but there would be no way they live with a top professional team for 90 minutes 53 years on (if you could bend time and have them play in their peak blah, blah). Has anyone here ever watched a full half of the 66 or 70 World Cup finals? The game was played at a different pace to today (as you'd expect).

And that's before you take into account the greater time and better methodology that goes into set piece and tactical preperation today. 1970 Brazil would be in trouble at every corner and set piece against modern teams better able to target goalkeepers or use blocking runners, etc.

Of course, this stuff can never be proven. But it is frustrating to see football fans stubbornly ignore the great strides made in every other area of physical achievement over the last half century believing it doesn't apply to their sport. So silly. :rolleyes:

bucketybuck

event wrote: »

I'm sorry, you cannot say "fact" when no one knows.

You have no clue how Bobby Moore would be against ronaldo. You can guess, or give your opinion, but neither are fact

Really? Thats very interesting. Thank you for pointing it out.

Morzadec

NiallSparky wrote: »

I'm surprised to see Ronaldinho fall so far. He was almost universally lauded as the best in the World at one point. I'm not sure you could say the same about Carlos and Romario for example.

SlickRic wrote: »

plenty of players gave fallen through the net so far.

Carlos going this early when you think of whose still available is mental.

also, Ronaldinho falling that far is crazy. super value at this stage.

Knex. wrote: »

Yeah, was delighted to be able to get him tbh. Had a few other players in mind, but like mentioned, too much value for the 20+ pick or whatever it was.

As has been said, at his peak he was insanely. Really right up there with the best I've seen.

There's a few players I have my eye on that I think might slip through the net. Hard to judge if you should go for them early or take the risk and hopr you can get them at a later time

G.K.

Bah, I wanted to use my right wing spot for someone else much later. But Jairzinho was a standout choice here, unless I overlooked someone obvious.

Knex*

G.K. wrote: »

Bah, I wanted to use my right wing spot for someone else much later. But Jairzinho was a standout choice here, unless I overlooked someone obvious.

I've a list of a few stand out players and he was on it, so in terms of value I'd say its about as good a pick as you could have gone for.