Soccer draft legends discussion thread

G.K.

I've watched a decent bit, but perhaps not as much as I'd have liked. Reputation is obviously a big factor as well.

Knex*

Who here as seen Pele play? Didn't see anyone kick up a fuss with him going so early.

A lot of G.K.'s players have great reputations, especially with their respective clubs. I suppose in terms of the draft and people questioning his choices, G.K is just unfortunate that none of these clubs are English.

G.K.

Unfortunate would be the wrong word, given I made the choices myself. But yeah.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm a little surprised at some of the recent picks. Is Mats Hummels a legend? Really? Is Gareth Bale really a legend?

I know we can pick anybody, from any time, but I hope to god people won't be viewing Bale as more dangerous than George Best or Jairzinho just because he is flavour of the month.

I was surprised Robben went that early.

IncognitoMan

The keepers have started to go

Had 4 keepers in mind. 3 are now gone.

Trippie

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

anyone else get confused for a sec and think trippie just tried to draft Jonah Lomu?

Yeah, severely sleep deprived this morning, figured id have a laugh. Would be good to see him in full on hulk mode bearing down on Neville and Terry.

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm still not sure if he plans to stick Totti out on the left wing?

Totti is so good he could play anywhere I imagine

whatawaster

Trippie wrote: »

Totti is so good he could play anywhere I imagine

Has to be played either up front or behind the front man. Wasted on the wing

Bounty Hunter

whatawaster wrote: »

Has to be played either up front or behind the front man. Wasted on the wing

For me he is almost the definition of what the Italians call a trequartista,

LuckyLloyd

Hummels drafted? lol

Think what that means: Mats Hummels - 1 of the 176 greatest footballers to ever walk the earth. Ridiculous.

Jax Teller

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hummels drafted? lol

Lol ? He was one of best Cbs in the world a year or two ago . Which is his prime and what he'll be judged on .

LuckyLloyd

Jax Teller wrote: »

Lol ? He was one of best Cbs in the world a year or two ago . Which is his prime and what he'll be judged on .

Hummels has no business going in this process. He was hyped up as one of the best CBs in the world in advance of the European Championship last summer and had a poor tournament, in particular he was dominated by Balotelli and Cassano in the semi finals.

Hummels will be an after thought in 15 years time and won't be a name that springs to mind from this period. Recency bias blinds you from that.

Jax Teller

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hummels has no business going in this process. He was hyped up as one of the best CBs in the world in advance of the European Championship last summer and had a poor tournament, in particular he was dominated by Balotelli and Cassano in the semi finals.

Hummels will be an after thought in 15 years time and won't be a name that springs to mind from this period. Recency bias blinds you from that.

Wouldn't agree that he had a poor tournament , he had a poor game against Italy yes but overall I thought he had a good tournament .

He was awarded player of the group stages by the readers of the guardian .
Zidane referred to him as player of the tournament at one point during the tournament also .

Think your basing too much on that semi final performance .

Oh and why would I be biased ? I don't have him in my team ? I don't support Germany or Dortmund ? I appreciate the guys quality that's it .

Edit all these list him in their team of the tournament .
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1244548-euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament/page/4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18657918

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2012/07/02/euro-2012-best-xi-team-of-the-tournament/

http://www.setanta.com/ien/Articles/2012/07/02/Euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament/gnid-146649/

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/4401921/Euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament.html

http://backpagefootball.com/euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament-so-far-matchday-2/42767/

bucketybuck

Jax Teller wrote: »

Wouldn't agree that he had a poor tournament , he had a poor game against Italy yes but overall I thought he had a good tournament .

He was awarded player of the group stages by the readers of the guardian .
Zidane referred to him as player of the tournament at one point during the tournament also .

Think your basing too much on that semi final performance .

Oh and why would I be biased ? I don't have him in my team ? I don't support Germany or Dortmund ? I appreciate the guys quality that's it .

Edit all these list him in their team of the tournament .
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1244548-euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament/page/4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18657918

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2012/07/02/euro-2012-best-xi-team-of-the-tournament/

http://www.setanta.com/ien/Articles/2012/07/02/Euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament/gnid-146649/

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/4401921/Euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament.html

http://backpagefootball.com/euro-2012-team-of-the-tournament-so-far-matchday-2/42767/

Most of those links also include Glen Johnson in their teams of the tournament. Do you think Glen Johnson will be an early pick?

You are really damning Hummels with faint praise here. Hummels is one of the greatest defenders in history based on what exactly? On various media outlets naming him in their team of the tournament? Any pundit can pick a list of players, interestingly Hummels was not picked in the offical Uefa team of the tournament, and that even picks 23 players not 11.

Mats Hummels is 24 and has achieved feck all. The only reason you could include him in a draft like this is the idea that all modern players are better than those from past decades, and if that is the standard then I wish I had just picked all modern players.

Bounty Hunter

I dont think Age fully matters, look at Messi, arguably he hasnt even peaked yet and still id class him as the best ever

but um yeah what Jax said and... Thiago Silva has also been drafted already and I dont think he is any better than Mats despite him going before him and with Bobby Moore as his CB partner I think a faster / fitter modern quality CB is ideal to offset the people who wont be able to bend their minds around the concept of a partnership from yesteryear keeping up with the likes of Ronaldo & Messi when teams are paired up.

Its really up to each individual voters opinion in the end why they think one team will beat another but itl be interesting to read what thought process people went through when voting if they add an opinion with their vote in those threads

Jax Teller

bucketybuck wrote: »

Most of those links also include Glen Johnson in their teams of the tournament. Do you think Glen Johnson will be an early pick?

You are really damning Hummels with faint praise here. Hummels is one of the greatest defenders in history based on what exactly? On various media outlets naming him in their team of the tournament? Any pundit can pick a list of players, interestingly Hummels was not picked in the offical Uefa team of the tournament, and that even picks 23 players not 11.

Mats Hummels is 24 and has achieved feck all. The only reason you could include him in a draft like this is the idea that all modern players are better than those from past decades, and if that is the standard then I wish I had just picked all modern players.

Where I have i said Hummels was one of the greatest defenders in history ?
I've said he was one of the best Cbs in the world a year or 2 ago , and that period is what I will judge him on & and what he should be judged on .

The other player you mentioned has nothing to do with anything I have mentioned or has been mentioned so I have no idea why you named him . Especially seeing as he hasn't been picked yet , That's bad form .

LuckyLloyd

24 year old Mats Hummels, one of the 176 greatest players of all time!

Or further sub divided: one of the ~22 best center backs of all time!

In ten years, if he improves his level and breaks the 100 cap barrier for Germany; produces in an International Semi Final or Final; amasses more medals and trophies and becomes a key part in teams that are consistently up there for a few years then, yeah sure, he'd be worthy of inclusion in this.

As is?

LuckyLloyd

Hummels might be one of the ~22 best center backs plying his trade in world football today, maybe. I'll give him that much.

Blatter

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Thiago Silva has also been drafted already and I dont think he is any better than Mats despite him going before

Would honesty have Thiago Silva a clear level above Hummels, then again I would!

Not sure what most others would think on that.

LuckyLloyd

Blatter wrote: »

Would honesty have Thiago Silva a clear level above Hummels, then again I would!

Not sure what most others would think on that.

I thought he was brilliant the second half of his three years at Milan and you could possibly have made an argument that he was out on his own last summer. But next year's World Cup is his tournament. To fully justify inclusion in this you'd really want him to be rock solid there and live on at club level up towards the following World Cup.

Compare Lucio's career to Silva and Hummels and how good Lucio was at his best. If Hummels and Silva have put in performances like Lucio versus Chelsea in 2010 I've yet to see them...

SlickRic

Thiago Silva has also achieved fúck all to warrant going so early in the draft IMO.

but there's no doubt he's a great player, and IMO, better than Hummels.

there's plenty of players that should go well before either of them.

Bale being picked was the one I really :eek:'d at tbh.

bucketybuck

Jax Teller wrote: »

Where I have i said Hummels was one of the greatest defenders in history ?
I've said he was one of the best Cbs in the world a year or 2 ago , and that period is what I will judge him on & and what he should be judged on .

Its a soccer legends draft, it even says that right in the title. If you say a player is good enough to be picked then its an obvious implication that you consider him one of the greatest ever. Seems clear to me.

Bounty Hunter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

24 year old Mats Hummels, one of the 176 greatest players of all time!

Or further sub divided: one of the ~22 best center backs of all time!

In ten years, if he improves his level and breaks the 100 cap barrier for Germany; produces in an International Semi Final or Final; amasses more medals and trophies and becomes a key part in teams that are consistently up there for a few years then, yeah sure, he'd be worthy of inclusion in this.

As is?

Technically I could argue he is as good as if not better than players already gone and many of the older classics yet to go but it could be also argued that that would only be because he is a modern player and thus trained more professionally from a younger age capable of playing a much quicker tempo etc

I would not class him in the best 176 players of all time but then again if it was a straight list Id expect many more forwards than we have seen drafted and not as many defenders so personally i dont even think that number represents anything in this discussion.

As I said I think he would be a good foil for B.Moore in CB and think sometimes its not a bad thing to take a modern classic because everyone knows modern classics while not everyone might recognise the class of an older9th rd CB if i took one though I do think there are some very good ones.

Its not career vs career either its the players at their peak.

anywhoo lets not focus on my CB, I get that 1 or 2 dont think he, Silva, Bale etc are great value now but they might not have known who Mr X was that I was going to pick.

We had a discussion on G.Ks team but I was wondering, voting wise, what will people think about teams with players you honestly dont know and have to rely on wiki to tell you if their good?

Red Crow

SlickRic wrote: »

Thiago Silva has also achieved fúck all to warrant going so early in the draft IMO.

but there's no doubt he's a great player, and IMO, better than Hummels.

there's plenty of players that should go well before either of them.

Bale being picked was the one I really :eek:'d at tbh.

But it's not really about the best ever. I've picked Falcao from Brazil who is one of the greatest midfielders of all time. Yet half the kids here think of the Monaco player when you see the name Falcao despite this Brazilian fella being one of the best.

This is going to be about popularity. I should of adjusted my picks sooner to suit the audience.

Blatter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I thought he was brilliant the second half of his three years at Milan and you could possibly have made an argument that he was out on his own last summer. But next year's World Cup is his tournament. To fully justify inclusion in this you'd really want him to be rock solid there and live on at club level up towards the following World Cup.

Compare Lucio's career to Silva and Hummels and how good Lucio was at his best. If Hummels and Silva have put in performances like Lucio versus Chelsea in 2010 I've yet to see them...

Well he got into the UEFA team of the year the last two seasons and will probably get in again this season. Not that that counts for too much I suppose!

Won the Samba d'Or (best Brazilian plying his trade in Europe) 2 years on the trot. A few defender of the year awards as well.

As for individual performance in a big game, he was widely lauded for his performances against Barca this season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C1qnazKwnE

Best defender in the world over the last couple of years for me, I just think he has everything.

Blatter

SlickRic wrote: »

Thiago Silva has also achieved fúck all to warrant going so early in the draft IMO.

but there's no doubt he's a great player, and IMO, better than Hummels.

there's plenty of players that should go well before either of them.

Bale being picked was the one I really :eek:'d at tbh.

I don't really care what he has achieved in terms of trophies tbh, I think that's fairly irrelevant when it comes to his ability on the pitch. Maybe many will give a lot of weight to that when they'e voting, but I won't, I don't really see the logic in it.

Jax Teller

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its a soccer legends draft, it even says that right in the title. If you say a player is good enough to be picked then its an obvious implication that you consider him one of the greatest ever. Seems clear to me.

The rules are as follows:

unlike in other variations on a soccer forum draft this time all players from all leagues in the world and from all times past and present are eligable to be drafted. The quality should be immense

players will be considered as good as they were at their prime when picked. This includes currently active players.

There are no rules limiting how many players you can pick from a certain club/nation or if you can pick from the same club/nation in back to back rounds. If someone wants to create an all Irish / Barca 11 they can.

Everyone has 24hrs to pick but we would hope for a far better turnover between picks than that and if you know you are not going to be around when it will be your pick then i'd suggest pming your pick to the person after you or someone else online at the time in an effort the keep the game moving along smoothly.

Once teams have been drafted another site like random.org will be used to draw a list of quarterfinals, hence us having 16 draftees. These QFs and subsequent matches will each be given their own thread with a poll where people can vote on whos team they think would win. This poll can be voted on by anyone and all votes will count but the poll will only be added to the thread after both competitors have explained their selections / gameplan.

If there is a tie after the vote then we recount with only voters who explained on thread why they voted a certain way will have their votes counted.

Legends is just the name of the draft . Seems you never read the rules .

Also re Bale he just had the season of his life . Player of the year , scoring over 20 goals in the league. That is his prime and what he should be judged on as the rules state .

LuckyLloyd

Yeah, I think Silva has a much better case for inclusion than Hummels.

LuckyLloyd

Jax Teller wrote: »

Legends is just the name of the draft . Seems you never read the rules .

Also re Bale he just had the season of his life . Player of the year , scoring over 20 goals in the league. That is his prime and what he should be judged on as the rules state .

Hummels is 24, go away talking about his "prime". He's played less than 200 games at the top level. So what if he showed a particular sparkle over 50 of them tbh.

Blatter

Also, will people start to nit pick if I play Zidane on the left as an attacking midfielder, even though that's where he played most of his football to great effect for Real Madrid?

Could see people saying ''no no, has to be through the centre, he's a waste out there''

Jax Teller

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hummels is 24, go away talking about his "prime". He's played less than 200 games at the top level. So what if he showed a particular sparkle over 50 of them tbh.

Them be the rules .

LuckyLloyd

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Technically I could argue he is as good as if not better than players already gone and many of the older classics yet to go but it could be also argued that that would only be because he is a modern player and thus trained more professionally from a younger age capable of playing a much quicker tempo etcIts not career vs career either

its the players at their peak

Unfortunately this stuff scuttles the draft imo.

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

We had a discussion on G.Ks team but I was wondering, voting wise, what will people think about teams with players you honestly dont know and have to rely on wiki to tell you if their good?

If Mats Hummels had a career ending injury this weekend for Germany he wouldn't be mentioned in a draft like this in 15 years time. Sammer, Mattheus, MacGrath, Desailly and Baresi always will. Time moves on and only the very best are still talked about and remembered. That's why picking a center back who has had a couple of decent seasons for a top club the past couple of years is silly. Sure, he's very good now but far and away from being one of the players of his era.

Blatter

Blatter wrote: »

Also, will people start to nit pick if I play Zidane on the left as an attacking midfielder, even though that's where he played most of his football to great effect for Real Madrid?

Could see people saying ''no no, has to be through the centre, he's a waste out there''

Anybody?

Wouldn't mind some sort of consensus on this before my next pick.

Knex*

Wonder what the consensus is on me picking John Terry when I did?

Knex*

Blatter wrote: »

Anybody?

Wouldn't mind some sort of consensus on this before my next pick.

Nah, really don't think it should go against you. That's where he played for Real and Juve as far as I'm concerned.

Jax Teller

Blatter wrote: »

Anybody?

Wouldn't mind some sort of consensus on this before my next pick.

Zidane no as he's shown he's well able to play out there

But some other players have been picked to play on the wing when they usually play through the middle . . If I come up against them I'll certainly be using it in my argument against that team .

bucketybuck

Blatter wrote: »

Also, will people start to nit pick if I play Zidane on the left as an attacking midfielder, even though that's where he played most of his football to great effect for Real Madrid?

Could see people saying ''no no, has to be through the centre, he's a waste out there''

I think you can demonstrate Zidane was very effective from deeper in midfield, or from the left hand side far more than you can for say, Totti. I assume you don't mean playing on the wing, but more a left sided midfielder? I wouldn't mark him down for that, as you say, thats where he played quite often.

I have Baggio and wouldn't really put him out left, but Zidane is a different type of plaer.

Blatter

Knex. wrote: »

Wonder what the consensus is on me picking John Terry when I did?

Grand imo as I don't think he would have lasted much longer. Some people don't rate him as highly as others but he was unquestionably immense for a few years in the mid 2000's.

Blatter

bucketybuck wrote: »

I think you can demonstrate Zidane was very effective from deeper in midfield, or from the left hand side far more than you can for say, Totti. I assume you don't mean playing on the wing, but more a left sided midfielder? I wouldn't mark him down for that, as you say, thats where he played quite often.

I have Baggio and wouldn't really put him out left, but Zidane is a different type of plaer.

Yeah not as a winger, a playmaker that plays from the left hand side and drifts in occasionally. As far as I remember for Madrid it was:

---

Ronaldo

---

---

Raul

---

Zidane

---

Figo

.......for the most part.

Jax Teller

Any opinions on my team so far ?

Gk
Rb Lucio Santamaria Lb
Deschamps
Pirlo Iniesta
Bale Ribery
Ronaldo .
Most likely a 433 formation or 451 depending what way you look at it .

bucketybuck

Knex. wrote: »

Wonder what the consensus is on me picking John Terry when I did?

I certainly wouldn't have picked him, I think he was very overrated and benefited from the whole English media bulldog overhyped deal.

But...

He differs from Hummels in that you can certainly make a solid case for him. He has been at the top for a decade, and has won everything there is to win at club level. He has actually been there and done that in a way Hummels has not.

Which reminds me. There is a top quality centre back who was named on the team of the tournament at both the 2002 world cup and Euro 2004. Strange to see other centre backs picked ahead of him.

Kylo Ren

Just saw how far Sócrates fell. That is a crazy good deal.

Morzadec

Basically where I stand on the debate of what players to pick - I don't really feel comfortable picking players I've never really seen much, even if they were supposedly great. Yes you can read about how great they were, what they achieved etc... but if you can't actually envisage the player playing it becomes difficult.

How is he going to fit into your team? How's he going to work with other players? You're not really going to know as you haven't seen him play. It's just not something I would feel comfortable with (but hey that's just me - each to his own).

Now I wouldn't include the likes of Pele in this - we all know he's a great, we've all seen countless clips of him, we all know what he's achieved. I have Laudrup and Maradona in my team - the former I probably saw a handful of times, the latter I think just the once (against Greece '94). But there are a huge amount of video compilations out there, documentaries etc... to see the quality they have.

I've done my best with some of the players I've never heard of to try to check out videos etc... but a lot of them don't have any, or at least not much footage that is very clear.

If you have a lot of players like this it will become mighty difficult for people to judge your team.

Morzadec

Knex. wrote: »

Wonder what the consensus is on me picking John Terry when I did?

Well a lot of people make a case for their player by awards won - Terry has won the UEFA Best Defender award 3 times, more than anyone else. More than Stam, more than Hierro, more than Maldini (admittedly the ward only started in 97/98).

Ironically enough if people had never seen Terry play he might have gone even earlier as you could point to those awards and say - look, he was the best of his era!

Anyway, Terry at his peak was a top defender, probably considered amongst the top 3 in the world for a few years.

Trippie

I guess it comes down to how we define their prime, is it one game, one month, one season or more? I thought at the start it should of been a three year stint minimum

PerrinV2

Jax Teller wrote: »

Legends is just the name of the draft . Seems you never read the rules .

Also re Bale he just had the season of his life . Player of the year , scoring over 20 goals in the league. That is his prime and what he should be judged on as the rules state .

Personally I think its a bad rule for current players that you can just pick out 1 year that they've been outstanding and judge that as there prime.
Current players should have be consistenly been performing at a high level for a number of years.

Felexicon

PerrinV2 wrote: »

Personally I think its a bad rule for current players that you can just pick out 1 year that they've been outstanding and judge that as there prime.
Current players should have be consistenly been performing at a high level for a number of years.

Yeah if you can go off 1 season then a case can be made for Darren Bent ffs

PhlegmyMoses

Morzadec wrote: »

Basically where I stand on the debate of what players to pick - I don't really feel comfortable picking players I've never really seen much, even if they were supposedly great. Yes you can read about how great they were, what they achieved etc... but if you can't actually envisage the player playing it becomes difficult.

How is he going to fit into your team? How's he going to work with other players? You're not really going to know as you haven't seen him play. It's just not something I would feel comfortable with (but hey that's just me - each to his own).

Now I wouldn't include the likes of Pele in this - we all know he's a great, we've all seen countless clips of him, we all know what he's achieved. I have Laudrup and Maradona in my team - the former I probably saw a handful of times, the latter I think just the once (against Greece '94). But there are a huge amount of video compilations out there, documentaries etc... to see the quality they have.

I've done my best with some of the players I've never heard of to try to check out videos etc... but a lot of them don't have any, or at least not much footage that is very clear.

If you have a lot of players like this it will become mighty difficult for people to judge your team.

Absolutely. It's why I suggested that G.K stick in a few modern players to get a few more votes. Most will have no idea if Figueroa was quick or strong or a good passer. They'll have no idea if Fachetti was good in the air when faced with a big team or able to play a one-touch passing system.

It's harder to make an argument for these players when they are faced with a team with IncognitoMan's front-line, for example, because it's hard to envisage anyone handling Henry, Shevchenko and Ronaldo in any era so your argument has to be good and something people can get their heads around.

The likes of Pele, Maradona and Best are easier to make an argument for, even if many have only seen clips, because there is a decent amount of footage out there that most will have seen and people have it in their heads anyway that these guys were the greatest.

Blatter

Yeah, I think Neeskens is the only one in my team so far that a few wouldn't have heard about. By all accounts he was a great all round midfielder overshadowed by Cruyff. Miguel Delaney ranked him as the 19th best footballer ever and he made it into his greatest team of all time.

http://footballpantheon.com/2011/09/the-100-greatest-players-of-all-time/13/

This is the piece on him:

....but both were also greatly helped by the ferocious natural aggression of Johan Neeskens. As Ajax assistant manager Bobby Haarms said, “he was like a kamikaze pilot, a forward soldier”. On first getting into the side, Neeskens would ferociously hound opposition players into their half while also intimidating them with his hard tackling. He was irrepressible.

But it wasn’t all about the energy with Neeskens. He also had the ingenuity. Sjaak Swart said that “in midfield, Neeskens could play for two”.

As Brian Glanville described it, “he broke frequently and furiously into attack”, usually exchanging flowing passes with Johan Cruyff.

The partnership also provided the engine for both the Ajax and Dutch teams of the early ’70s. Indeed, so central were they that it was these two Michels picked when he went to Barcelona as manager.

After the Cup Winners Cup victory of 1979 – which Neeskens had helped settled with two glorious through balls against Fortuna Dusseldorf in the final – the fans chanted his name. Weeping at the official ceremony, Neeskens threw his tie into the crowd.

A player who mixed passion and aggression with genuine creativity, Neeskens was the complete midfielder.

Would be interesting to gauge if many on here know about him or have seen him play before.

LuckyLloyd

Essentially, the draft is unworkable. If you need to have seen players play to properly assess them and mark teams down because you didn't see the likes of Puskas play yourself well, what's the point? If Mats Hummels is an acceptable pick because well 'he has pace and is probably better than Moore anyway because he's a modern player' then ye are all wasting your time imo. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news!

SlickRic

i think it's workable; saying it's unworkable is going OTT.

you're just going to have a lot of arguing.

sorry to pick on someone like Bale, but he's an obvious one for me to highlight. he has had one absolutely fantastic 6 months for instance. there are plenty of players, Premier League players at that, that had more impactful careers than he has had so far that have not been touched yet.

people like Totti and del Piero, who have thankfully gone, should be destroying Bale in this sort of draft IMO. but i would fear that they won't.

the debate between teams is going to be absolute war.