The right to be forgotten (online)

Cerco

JD DABA wrote: »

the google app called forget-me works pretty good.

How do you know that it does?

The Backwards Man

Lunni wrote: »

That's really idealistic, tbh. I don't think an interviewer googling you for a job has any need to know about what you were going through as a teenager and what he/she finds may well put him/her off offering you a job. Things are hard enough, without your past being dredged up to haunt you.

As I said, that says more about them than it does about you, you're better off not getting that job if that is how you are evaluated.

Dravokivich

Lunni wrote: »

That's really idealistic, tbh. I don't think an interviewer googling you for a job has any need to know about what you were going through as a teenager and what he/she finds may well put him/her off offering you a job. Things are hard enough, without your past being dredged up to haunt you.

You're going on the very far end of the scale there. The only people that do that kind of thing are Politicians.

rox5

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Did you use your real name or a made-up username when posting on Yahoo answers?

These days, I know better now, and always use a made-up username, but being young and stupid I used my full name on Yahoo. I genuinely thought I would never be found because it is such a huge community.

rox5

Dravokivich wrote: »

If someone was to come up to me with something I said or wrote 10 years ago, out of context and attempt to use it to discredit or undermine me, I'd be of mind that the problem is with them, not with something I'd written long ago.

True, but only smart, open-minded people would realise that the past is past. But you have no idea how much people I am surrounded by who still go on about stupid rubbish that has happened years ago (not online, but in real life)

Dravokivich

rox5 wrote: »

True, but only smart, open-minded people would realise that the past is past. But you have no idea how much people I am surrounded by who still go on about stupid rubbish that has happened years ago (not online, but in real life)

I get that it can be upsetting and don't mean to be harsh in anyway saying this. But objectively, if such an issue persists in your local social environment, how can it be expected to be dealt with in an infinite environment such as the internet?

Lunni

The Backwards Man wrote: »

As I said, that says more about them than it does about you, you're better off not getting that job if that is how you are evaluated.

And in the real world, that's how it works.

rox5

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If you're not the same person why would you worry about it? What's past is past.
There's no going back.

It's because there are so many people who can judge you by your past, and this can be particulary bad if that person happens to be your boss, for example. You can be in your job, just happily working away, then your boss can find out your stuff online and might fire you because some bosses can be that shallow.

godwin

There should be methods to allow forum/facebook etc etc users to delete their info at will.

Luckily I have never used my real name or put photos of me online , ever.

The Backwards Man

rox5 wrote: »

It's because there are so many people who can judge you by your past, and this can be particulary bad if that person happens to be your boss, for example. You can be in your job, just happily working away, then your boss can find out your stuff online and might fire you because some bosses can be that shallow.

If your boss is like that, then, pardon my French, fcuk them. People who judge you by your online past will judge you regardless. Forget about worrying about what people like that think.

godwin

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I remember things I said and had said to me all through my life, I can't turn back the clock and erase them, nor would I want to. Good or bad, they are part of what makes who I am in the here and now.

That's right you can't , because it's not physically possible , but given the choice I bet there is things you have said or done that you would go back and change/erase.

So I don't see any logic is comparing something thats not physically possible(time travel) to something that is possible(deleting internet footprint)

Dravokivich

rox5 wrote: »

It's because there are so many people who can judge you by your past, and this can be particulary bad if that person happens to be your boss, for example. You can be in your job, just happily working away, then your boss can find out your stuff online and might fire you because some bosses can be that shallow.

Aren't there laws in place to protect the employee from an abusive work environment? If you were to be fired over something so trivial, you'll be able to get compensation for it.

Lunni

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If your boss is like that, then, pardon my French, fcuk them. People who judge you by your online past will judge you regardless. Forget about worrying about what people like that think.

Have you ever actually had a job? The vast majority of employers will search for you online and base their decision on what they find.

Dravokivich

Lunni wrote: »

Have you ever actually had a job? The vast majority of employers will search for you online and base their decision on what they find.

I work for a multi-national and they couldn't be bothered to do that.

smash

People should have the right to be anonymous online and forgotten if they want to be. A lot members close their accounts here and start fresh but I'd hazard a guess that most would like their closed accounts to disappear just like spam accounts do and I think the likes of boards should offer the service, even for a small fee!

Historically when message boards were set up, the level of threat of personal information appearing easily on-line wasn't there but now it is as the web grows bigger and SEO becomes more and more important to an online business. Everything is searchable!

smash

Dravokivich wrote: »

I work for a multi-national and they couldn't be bothered to do that.

I guarantee they already do it by looking at linkedin profiles, which in turn will open access to social media channels.

The Backwards Man

No, I've never had a job


If I ever apply for a job I'd expect that the employer would base the decision on my ability to do the job. If that includes searching online for an essence of my character so be it, but if I am precluded for knacker drinking when I was thirteen then that it is not somewhere I would want to work anyway.

smash

The Backwards Man wrote: »

No, I've never had a job


If I ever apply for a job I'd expect that the employer would base the decision on my ability to do the job. If that includes searching online for an essence of my character so be it, but if I am precluded for knacker drinking when I was thirteen then that it is not somewhere I would want to work anyway.

You are a reflection of the company you work for!

Lunni

The Backwards Man wrote: »

No, I've never had a job


If I ever apply for a job I'd expect that the employer would base the decision on my ability to do the job. If that includes searching online for an essence of my character so be it, but if I am precluded for knacker drinking when I was thirteen then that it is not somewhere I would want to work anyway.

Yeah, you can tell.

In the real world, bills need paying and food needs buying. Who cares if your boss is a bit judgemental? It's hard enough to get a job matching your skills and experience as it is. The last thing you need is someone dredging up something from your past which is now completely irrelevant.

All this 'that's not somewhere I'd like to work anyway' is stuff you only hear from people who have never actually had to support themselves.

The Backwards Man

Lunni wrote: »

Yeah, you can tell.

In the real world, bills need paying and food needs buying. Who cares if your boss is a bit judgemental? It's hard enough to get a job matching your skills and experience as it is. The last thing you need is someone dredging up something from your past which is now completely irrelevant.

All this 'that's not somewhere I'd like to work anyway' is stuff you only hear from people who have never actually had to support themselves.

From the employer's point of view, do you think that they would be more willing to employ someone that is completely open and honest about the past, and any mistakes that they have made, or someone who tries to hide it?

If I was an employer (which will never happen because as you say I could never even have a job:p) I know which one I would choose.

Dravokivich

smash wrote: »

I guarantee they already do it by looking at linkedin profiles, which in turn will open access to social media channels.

Who has enough time to be doing that? Because a multi-national certainly doesn't.

smash

Dravokivich wrote: »

Who has enough time to be doing that? Because a multi-national certainly doesn't.

Don't be naive. They do it all the time with job applicants. I know this for a fact and I know people in HR departments of large multi-nationals who have not hired or even interviewed candidates based on the contents of their social media channels.

Lunni

The Backwards Man wrote: »

From the employer's point of view, do you think that they would be more willing to employ someone that is completely open and honest about the past, and any mistakes that they have made, or someone who tries to hide it?

If I was an employer (which will never happen because as you say I could never even have a job:p) I know which one I would choose.

It's absolutely nobody's business what I did in the past. Why should your employer know all this personal stuff about you? It's not relevant and it's none of their business. They would never be able to ask about this stuff in an interview, but they can go and search online for it and find posts you made years ago before you realised just how searchable the internet would be in 2013.

Dravokivich

smash wrote: »

Don't be naive. They do it all the time with job applicants. I know this for a fact and I know people in HR departments of large multi-nationals who have not hired or even interviewed candidates based on the contents of their social media channels.

I'd of said ignorant more so. The whole practise seems like a waste of time to me.

The Backwards Man

Lunni wrote: »

It's absolutely nobody's business what I did in the past. Why should your employer know all this personal stuff about you? It's not relevant and it's none of their business. They would never be able to ask about this stuff in an interview, but they can go and search online for it and find posts you made years ago before you realised just how searchable the internet would be in 2013.

It's entirely their business, you are representing who you work for, why wouldn't they want to know what kind of person you are?

Then again, what would I know, I just sit on my hole, sponging.

Lunni

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's entirely their business, you are representing who you work for, why wouldn't they want to know what kind of person you are?

Then again, what would I know, I just sit on my hole, sponging.

Because what kind of person you were at 15 often has very little to do with what kind of person you are at 25.

I find it really sinister and worrying that the concept of privacy just doesn't seem to exist for some people. Every single aspect of your past, including stuff which is embarrassing or painful, is fair game for everyone to know about. Weird and creepy.

entropi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxK_nA2iVXw

The Backwards Man

Lunni wrote: »

Because what kind of person you were at 15 often has very little to do with what kind of person you are at 25.

I find it really sinister and worrying that the concept of privacy just doesn't seem to exist for some people. Every single aspect of your past, including stuff which is embarrassing or painful, is fair game for everyone to know about. Weird and creepy.

And what type of person you are at 35 is often very much the same as you were at 25. I'm pretty sure employers are more interested in your ability to turn up on a Monday morning and your general attitude towards work than they are about what you said about Mickey down the road twenty years ago.

People treat the internet as if it is something seperate from reality. It's not, it's an ever increasing part of it.

Lets face it there are plenty of every day things that you wouldn't want potential employer seeing that can end up online and even with privacy setting etc things still slip through and can be found. When you have the job it doesnt matter as much its the early stages that it matters.

For instance pictures of being hammered drunk and asleep in the pub on a saturday night. No big deal normally and not something that should have any influence on you getting a job but say some HR person who is a bit dry is researching you and something like that might lead them to recommended you are not interviewed.

You should be able to delete this sort if stuff at least temporarily and you are on facebook but it should be possible everywhere online.

Capt'n Midnight

It's too late. The genie is out of the bottle.

ISP's must keep data records for a long time. It's a legal requirement.

Also Echelon

Also archive.org and it's ilk

Also everyone who has ever seen the data may have it in cache anyway.



The only good news is that everyone is in the same boat so meh

Also

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/24/one_in_ten_uk_facebook_users_leave_network/

In a report examining social media use among web-savvy Brits, the market research firm found a 9 per cent drop in Facebook usage since April 2012.

Among the people who had quit Facebook, 23 per cent said they'd done so because they were "fed up with social marketing promotions", up 18 per cent from April 2012. Exactly one-fifth ditched the social network because they were nervous their personal info would be handed over to third parties.

Remember

What goes on tour stays on tour.

What goes on the internet stays on the internet.

oppenheimer1

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's too late. The genie is out of the bottle.

ISP's must keep data records for a long time. It's a legal requirement.

Also Echelon

Also archive.org and it's ilk

Also everyone who has ever seen the data may have it in cache anyway.



The only good news is that everyone is in the same boat so meh

Also

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/24/one_in_ten_uk_facebook_users_leave_network/


Remember

What goes on tour stays on tour.

What goes on the internet stays on the internet.

Its not the web saavy that will need such rights and protections, it is those that less understand what they are saying will last forever.

For example that young girl that was appointed police commissioner in the UK was forced to resign over some allegedly controversial tweets she made some time ago.

Capt'n Midnight

Maybe if I say it a different way,
no matter what laws are passed anything you've made public could and probably has already been grabbed by third parties.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/22/parasite-porn-websites-images-videos

A study by the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) reveals that 88% of self-made sexual or suggestive images and videos posted by young people, often on social networking sites, are taken from their original online location and uploaded on to other websites.
...
The original pictures and videos were uploaded by young people on to commonplace websites but then stolen by porn sites for display. Of the 12,224 images and videos monitored on 68 different websites, 10,776 were later found on parasite websites.

Also, if your stuff was properly removed such that it doesn't show up in searches then beware that recent UK laws on orphaned works mean that Photographs or other creative works can be used without the owners' explicit permission as long as a "diligent search" has taken place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22337406

oppenheimer1

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Maybe if I say it a different way,
no matter what laws are passed anything you've made public could and probably has already been grabbed by third parties.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/22/parasite-porn-websites-images-videos


Also, if your stuff was properly removed such that it doesn't show up in searches then beware that recent UK laws on orphaned works mean that Photographs or other creative works can be used without the owners' explicit permission as long as a "diligent search" has taken place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22337406

I understand that, and its never a good idea to put sexually explicit photographs or videos on the web as they are likely to be copied. What I think the right to be forgotten is all about is that if someone were to ask boards to close and delete their account they would do so. A typical poster may over the years have made rash comments, or were trolling for devilment. The right to be forgotten prevents someone trawling through forum histories and using this against them.

Of course there may be other copies of this stuff elsewhere online, but for the most part material is only stored on a single site.

Downlinz

Ultimately all this shows an ugly side to humans, no longer are misdemeanour's of the past subject to photographs in limited supply, memories increasingly blurring over time or one persons word against another. People are arguing for their right to deceit and that responsibility for ones actions should have a timeframe.

If you don't want something to be known don't publish it on a global network, it's very simple.

Downlinz

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its not the web saavy that will need such rights and protections, it is those that less understand what they are saying will last forever.

For example that young girl that was appointed police commissioner in the UK was forced to resign over some allegedly controversial tweets she made some time ago.

Why should laws be made to protect the uneducated from themselves?

rox5

Downlinz wrote: »

If you don't want something to be known don't publish it on a global network, it's very simple.

Yeah it is that simple...it will be simple to the future generations now who will know from experiance, or from future parents who posted stupid **** when they were teenagers who will tell their own children, or if people now decided to educate kids in school in the future more about the internet and it's pros and cons...it will become more simple for them to know not to post any private information on the internet anymore.

But it was not like that for us, social networking and the internet itself was slowly becoming more available and part of our lifes when we were younger, I mean I am 20 now, when I was in primary school internet was just something you had if you needed to google something important, and even then it wasn't worth the hassle because of the dialup internet.
But then once I came into secondary school, all of a sudden broadband was available, and Bebo and Yahoo Answers and I ended up becoming hooked, and unfortunately put up information I wish I could take back.

But that's the thing, even though warning might have been there somewhere, I don't think a lot of people was aware of the whole "digital footprint" until recently for the past couple of years, and even then it was too late. A lot of us had to learn the hard way, but that does not mean that info should still be online for the world to see.

Lunni

rox5 wrote: »

Yeah it is that simple...it will be simple to the future generations now who will know from experiance, or from future parents who posted stupid **** when they were teenagers who will tell their own children, or if people now decided to educate kids in school in the future more about the internet and it's pros and cons...it will become more simple for them to know not to post any private information on the internet anymore.

But it was not like that for us, social networking and the internet itself was slowly becoming more available and part of our lifes when we were younger, I mean I am 20 now, when I was in primary school internet was just something you had if you needed to google something important, and even then it wasn't worth the hassle because of the dialup internet.
But then once I came into secondary school, all of a sudden broadband was available, and Bebo and Yahoo Answers and I ended up becoming hooked, and unfortunately put up information I wish I could take back.

But that's the thing, even though warning might have been there somewhere, I don't think a lot of people was aware of the whole "digital footprint" until recently for the past couple of years, and even then it was too late. A lot of us had to learn the hard way, but that does not mean that info should still be online for the world to see.

Exactly. Nobody had any idea how searchable and permanent the internet would turn out to be. You might have posted things on Yahoo Answers figuring no-one you know would ever come across it. Now a quick google of your name and all that stuff will come up.

Capt'n Midnight

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I understand that, and its never a good idea to put sexually explicit photographs or videos on the web as they are likely to be copied.

Likely ?
It was measured at 88% and that's only the stuff they found on the usual suspects within the timeframe. And you've to add caches , private sites, and downloads to that.

What I think the right to be forgotten is all about is that if someone were to ask boards to close and delete their account they would do so. A typical poster may over the years have made rash comments, or were trolling for devilment. The right to be forgotten prevents someone trawling through forum histories and using this against them.

This gets interesting when you remove one side of a discussion, it gets impractical when someone was quoted.

There are also legal aspects, if you try to sue someone and they pull the comments after the damage was done.

Of course there may be other copies of this stuff elsewhere online, but for the most part material is only stored on a single site.

just what exactly do you think the likes of Google Cache / archive.org do ?



In theory you could remove an object and keep a hash of it so identical copies could be auto-removed later on, but since the first thing a lot of sites do is remove exif data / add their watermaker that just isn't going to work.



Yes people should have the right to remove content they own from the internet but I just don't see how it could be done perfectly in practice and it's not helping anyone to suggest that it could be done. People have to understand it could only be "best endeavour" and that horse has almost certainly bolted.



However, most sites take away your copyright which means it's no longer your content and so you have no rights - read the T&C's when blogging or updating maps or even backing up data on line

Capt'n Midnight

Downlinz wrote: »

Why should laws be made to protect the uneducated from themselves?

Why should laws be made to protect the companies who steal and remove tracking data from "orphaned" content ?