Confederations cup 15th-30th june

miralize

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The current Spain reminds me of Michael Schmacher at his best in Grand Prix. Incredibly good, efficient and ruthless, but it just got tedious over time.

I believe thats his pornstar name. Other than that, very good point.

~Rebel~

miralize wrote: »

I believe thats his pornstar name. Other than that, very good point.

Ha, the perils of typing on the ipad!

Optimalprimerib

Knex. wrote: »

I think Andersonisgod used to work as one of those fellas on Yahoo typing out the Live Match Commentary stuff.

He was fired because he only ever reported on one team

miralize

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

He was fired because he only ever reported on one team

I thought he was one of Ray Hudsons ghostwriters?

Andersonisgod

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

He was fired because he only ever reported on one team

I admit, I LOL'ed

GTR63

Balotelli is probably out of the semi final vs Spain.
http://www.football-italia.net/35671/doctors-balotelli-out-against-spain
F*ck it anyway, I desperately wanted to type 'Bitches be sayin Mario be complainin' again.

Giruilla

Jernal wrote: »

I do think people are misguiding in saying Germany are entertaining. Bayern Munich maybe but Germany not so much. There is a caveat there and that's that Munich need teams to actually go at them and attack them for the game to be entertaining.

Personally when I think of 2010 WC all I think of is how entertaining Germany were and how unbearable Spain were. Honestly can barely remember a game Spain played that world cup apart from the final/sf.

batistuta9

Giruilla wrote: »

Personally when I think of 2010 WC all I think of is how entertaining Germany were and how unbearable Spain were. Honestly can barely remember a game Spain played that world cup apart from the final/sf.

& that's probably because of the Dutch kicking the shít out of them

Giruilla

Corholio wrote: »

Theyre a great, great team. People are mixing up saying theyre play can seem boring as not appreciating their quality.

Of course when theyre passing it around they are destroying teams, but watching it relentlessly over 90 minutes can be tough going sometimes. I hate the notion that if someone says they can find it boring they don't appreciate good football. Appreciation and an opinion of the total excitement of a 90 min match are two very different things.

Yeah it's embarrassing how people think because you find them boring you can't appreciate their quality. It wins games.. you can't really argue with that.

I do think the style of play ruins the sport a little.. I watch football first and foremost to be entertained, and two CM's and CB's passing it around the upper edge of their own half for me just isn't entertaining. Take basketball as an example.. the exact same problem happened there and they had to bring in a 'shot clock'.

Giruilla

batistuta9 wrote: »

& that's probably because of the Dutch kicking the shít out of them

Which I personally enjoyed very much!

citytillidie

Giruilla wrote: »

Personally when I think of 2010 WC all I think of is how entertaining Germany were and how unbearable Spain were. Honestly can barely remember a game Spain played that world cup apart from the final/sf.

Only match I remember from Spain was Switzerland beating them, the rest were boring 1 goal victories

batistuta9

Giruilla wrote: »

Which I personally enjoyed very much!

a good tackle is often under appreciated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwqLn0F8jXk

i wonder will andersonisgod treat us to one of his laudatory synopsis on this masterpiece

LuckyLloyd

Spain are just pure cynical ultimately - 'whatever it takes' as artform. They play the most effective football. If you can keep it like they do and work opponents backwards and forwards for however long it takes to prise an opening you should absolutely do so.

They also lean on modern refereeing standards like no team before them - no exagerrated roll or protest to the referee is too much, And they know how to foul - Busquets is a master of the cynical professional hack to break up a dangerous passage of play.

They are utterly ruthless and brilliant at the business of winning football matches. No arguments there. Beautiful and entertaining though? No, and it shouldn't be at all controversial to note that.

Bohrio

Giruilla wrote: »

Which I personally enjoyed very much!

My favorite bit was at the end when the the whole dutch team were complaining about Iniesta being off side when he scored the goal...

I wonder what would have happened in that final if the Dutch would have decided to play football instead of kicking the s... out of everyone :S

inforfun

batistuta9 wrote: »

& that's probably because of the Dutch kicking the shít out of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wALiyDM_Nk

Portugal - Holland in 2006 was on another level though.

Curious what match it will be in Brasil when my fellow countrymen will lose it again. Could be against Brasil.

dfx-

Notable mention to Germany v Cameroon in 2002

Giruilla wrote: »

Personally when I think of 2010 WC all I think of is how entertaining Germany were and how unbearable Spain were. Honestly can barely remember a game Spain played that world cup apart from the final/sf.

Until they faced Spain themselves and then quickly cowered back in the corner like every other team. Against a sacrificial England side and a Maradona led Argentina, they were good.

LuckyLloyd

Bohrio wrote: »

My favorite bit was at the end when the the whole dutch team were complaining about Iniesta being off side when he scored the goal...

I wonder what would have happened in that final if the Dutch would have decided to play football instead of kicking the s... out of everyone :S

They would have lost in normal time by a couple of goals or more. They nearly (and probably should have - Arjen Robben I'm looking at you) beat Spain using the approach they utilised. Came damn close. As such, I conclude that kicking them up and down the pitch was the right strategy on the night.

Giruilla

dfx- wrote: »

Until they faced Spain themselves and then quickly cowered back in the corner like every other team. Against a sacrificial England side and a Maradona led Argentina, they were good.

Or to put it another way, putting 4 past the 7th and 6th seeded teams respectively!

dfx-

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Spain are just pure cynical ultimately - 'whatever it takes' as artform. They play the most effective football. If you can keep it like they do and work opponents backwards and forwards for however long it takes to prise an opening you should absolutely do so.

They also lean on modern refereeing standards like no team before them - no exagerrated roll or protest to the referee is too much, And they know how to foul - Busquets is a master of the cynical professional hack to break up a dangerous passage of play.

They are utterly ruthless and brilliant at the business of winning football matches. No arguments there. Beautiful and entertaining though? No, and it shouldn't be at all controversial to note that.

So in other words they do both skill sets. Equally adept at 'The Dark Arts' and skill at the same time - in the same fleeting moment in Busquets' case. Unbeatable combination.

Gbear

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They are utterly ruthless and brilliant at the business of winning football matches. No arguments there. Beautiful and entertaining though? No, and it shouldn't be at all controversial to note that.

Thing is, you say that, and then you see Iniesta glide past 3 players or Xavi do an increidble turn and invent space out of nothing or scything through their opponents with a series of one touch passes.

There's certainly large amounts of ruthlessness, gamesmanship and playing the percentages but they have some tremendously talented footballers that can produce more quality than anyone else, basically on a whim.

It's the marrying of the two that makes them both a steamroller in tournaments but also capable of incredibly beautiful football.

When you're that much better than anyone else (I don't think anyone comes close in terms of technical ability right through the squad) it makes beautiful football high percentage football too.

GTR63 wrote: »

Balotelli is probably out of the semi final vs Spain.
http://www.football-italia.net/35671/doctors-balotelli-out-against-spain
F*ck it anyway, I desperately wanted to type 'Bitches be sayin Mario be complainin' again.

A pity.
He's starting to look like one of the most complete CFs on the planet. His hold up play is only second to Ibrahimovic, imo.

Richard Hillman

Giruilla wrote: »

Personally when I think of 2010 WC all I think of is how entertaining Germany were and how unbearable Spain were. Honestly can barely remember a game Spain played that world cup apart from the final/sf.

I remember the game against France in the Quarters but that is only because I think it is in my Top 5 dullest games I have ever seen in my life.

dfx-

Meanwhile, Iniesta last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNW-LXjRc9o

Moneymaker

I think what grates people is this whole 'beautiful football' 'the Barcelona/Spain way' 'the way to play' etc etc is that fact it gets shoved down all our throats so much. And the fact that its supporters seem to think this type of football has only existed since 2008 and it's like has never been seen before.

People can form their own opinions based on what they watch. Ultimately they decide what is great football and what isn't no matter how much the Spain/Barca droolers will **** off over it.

/rant

Giruilla

Gbear wrote: »

A pity.
He's starting to look like one of the most complete CFs on the planet. His hold up play is only second to Ibrahimovic, imo.

He looks a different player to when he was at city.. his goal against mexico was impressive

Gbear

Giruilla wrote: »

He looks a different player to when he was at city.. his goal against mexico was impressive

Probably helps being the focal point of club and country.

Didn't happen like that at City. To be fair the them, he was too crazy to rely on in that way at the time.

Most of all he seems to have settled down a bit.

Bohrio

dfx- wrote: »

Meanwhile, Iniesta last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNW-LXjRc9o

Class... or like someothers would say... boring, I almost fell asleep

Dr_Brian_Cocks

As great as Spain are they aren't as great as some might think.

Portugal deserved to beat them in the Euro 2012 semis last year and it took them til extra time to beat Holland in the world cup final. Wouldn't be surprised to see Brazil pip them.

Bohrio

Moneymaker wrote: »

I think what grates people is this whole 'beautiful football' 'the Barcelona/Spain way' 'the way to play' etc etc is that fact it gets shoved down all our throats so much. And the fact that its supporters seem to think this type of football has only existed since 2008 and it's like has never been seen before.

People can form their own opinions based on what they watch. Ultimately they decide what is great football and what isn't no matter how much the Spain/Barca droolers will **** off over it.

/rant

I think every spanish football fan (barcelona or not) will tell you that this type of gameplay it started back in the 1970s with the Holland and Cruyff, in fact, it is thanks to him. This is not something that started in 2008, first time Barcelona played this type of football was back in 1990s, if not before that...

I find some of Barcelona's game boring, but most are quite entertaining, unless of course you are playing against a team with 10 defenders, then, no matter who you have in front, the game is going to be boring. I dont remember a game of a team against an ultradefensive team being fun to watch... or maybe there are some but probably just a few.

And dont say that's the only way to play them because is not true, there have been many teams (even before this season which is, by far, their worst) who have won Barcelona without defending with 10 men. Even Portugal almost won them back in 2012 (eurocup semifinal)

Gbear

Moneymaker wrote: »

I think what grates people is this whole 'beautiful football' 'the Barcelona/Spain way' 'the way to play' etc etc is that fact it gets shoved down all our throats so much. And the fact that its supporters seem to think this type of football has only existed since 2008 and it's like has never been seen before.

People can form their own opinions based on what they watch. Ultimately they decide what is great football and what isn't no matter how much the Spain/Barca droolers will **** off over it.

/rant

People generally don't like being told what to think. Whether they're right or they're wrong almost doesn't come into it. Either way their first reaction is to push back against it.

Dr_Brian_Cocks wrote: »

As great as Spain are they aren't as great as some might think.

Portugal deserved to beat them in the Euro 2012 semis last year and it took them til extra time to beat Holland in the world cup final. Wouldn't be surprised to see Brazil pip them.

That's where the ruthlessness comes in.

Football is largely based on the notion that any team can beat any other on a once off. That's a function of it being relatively low scoring.

You wouldn't generally get a team playing absolute crap in basketball but winning from a "poxy deflected 3 pt shot".

Even very good teams can play terribly. The proof of the pudding is in the eating though - Utd had some really crap performances last season. They still won the league at a canter.

Spain's record in competitive matches speaks for itself. At a certain point the statistics come in and show that although you can pick out certain evidence to the contrary, this Spain side win in the end.

It's not any of their last 3 trophies in isolation - it's the fact that they've done all 3 back to back.
Spain have played 97 games (all competitions and friendlies) since January 1st 2007.
In that time their record is W84 D7 L6 or a win rate of 86.6% and loss rate of just 6.2% (FIFA Website).

Dr_Brian_Cocks

Yes but had the holland game gone to penos in the WC it was a toss up which Spain could have lost. Same with the Portugal match if Portugal scored (which they should have done) then we'd be talking about Spain underachieving still.

I think Germany are up there with Spain, probably don't have the depth of Spain which improves competition. I don't think Spain will win the WC next year.

Bohrio

Dr_Brian_Cocks wrote: »

Yes but had the holland game gone to penos in the WC it was a toss up which Spain could have lost. Same with the Portugal match if Portugal scored (which they should have done) then we'd be talking about Spain underachieving still.

I think Germany are up there with Spain, probably don't have the depth of Spain which improves competition. I don't think Spain will win the WC next year.

There is little point in "guessing" what could have happened if... And penalties is probably one of Spain's greatest skills, eg, they got through in penalties by beating Italy in 2008 if I remember correctly. Casillas is probably one of the best goalkeepers to have in a penalty shootout.

Portugal had a great game and could have won, but they went to penalties and they lost. Life and football are always full of ifs.

Germany lost 1-2 against Italy and in the final, Italy got beaten 4-0 by Spain

Being so close to loosing and still winning it what makes a team great. Even if Spain would have lost the euro 2012 that wouldn't have mean the end of their dominance. Even teams like greatest Brasil of recent times (1994) never won the Copa America, sames as France in 1998 never won the Eurocup after that.

What Spain has achieved is impressive, unthinkable if we go back 15 years. And its even more impressive if you look at what the National team, sub-21 and sub-19 have achieved in the last 5 years.

Eurocup 2008 (National Team)
World cup 2010 (National Team)
Eurocup 2011 (Sub-19)
Eurocup 2011 (Sub-21)
Eurocup 2012 (Sub-19)
Eurocup 2012 (National Team)
Eurocup 2013 (Sub-21)

Turtwig

Giruilla wrote: »

Personally when I think of 2010 WC all I think of is how entertaining Germany were and how unbearable Spain were. Honestly can barely remember a game Spain played that world cup apart from the final/sf.

Yes, but you are making the mistake that everyone else is making. It's the combination of the two teams that make the game interesting or not. Spain are so far ahead of the rest of world technically that if most teams doesn't compact themselves nice and tightly they'll be torn to shreds. Is that boring? Yeah possibly but it's not solely Spain's fault. The point here is that Germany are entertaining only because they're not so far superior to other top quality sides that they have to retreat into their shell.

Spain Italy for example games are generally more entertaining because the gap in technical ability is quite close. Spain are still superior but not my much. For most teams who face them if they open themselves up they'll get a thumping. A larger number of teams can actually have a go at Germany without risk of openly conceding - providing Germany with more opportunities for entertaining counter attacks. That's why in tournaments like the euros and WCs German games are more entertaining. For the WC Argentina were a tactical mess and England were dire.

One other point. How many games have I seen Spain play where they miss absolute sitters but still win? Too many. Their, at times, profligate finishing is undoubtedly their weakness. (Possibly even more so than their defence.)

dfx-

Dr_Brian_Cocks wrote: »

As great as Spain are they aren't as great as some might think.

Portugal deserved to beat them in the Euro 2012 semis last year and it took them til extra time to beat Holland in the world cup final. Wouldn't be surprised to see Brazil pip them.

They are though. And that's not a controversial thing to say either.

The way to take on Spain is to attack them like Italy and Portugal did in Euro 2012. Teams don't do that generally because it takes an exceptional level of fitness, organisation and technique.

That teams - including the much vaunted (here) Germany - don't feel good enough to do this is the biggest clue as to how good Spain are.

Gbear

dfx- wrote: »

They are though. And that's not a controversial thing to say either.

The way to take on Spain is to attack them like Italy and Portugal did in Euro 2012. Teams don't do that generally because it takes an exceptional level of fitness, organisation and technique.

That teams - including the much vaunted (here) Germany - don't feel good enough to do this is the biggest clue as to how good Spain are.

I feel like Germany actually would've given Spain a better game than Italy last year (although Italy were a bit unlucky).

LuckyLloyd

dfx- wrote: »

They are though. And that's not a controversial thing to say either.

The way to take on Spain is to attack them like Italy and Portugal did in Euro 2012. Teams don't do that generally because it takes an exceptional level of fitness, organisation and technique.

That teams - including the much vaunted (here) Germany - don't feel good enough to do this is the biggest clue as to how good Spain are.

Is it? Their last two losses in International competition came against robust performances from the USA and Switzerland who were physical and defensive and concentrated on nicking a goal and holding onto it. Paraguay gave Spain a close run in the 2010 WC Quarters through sitting off and playing on the break essentially. And Holland went out to hurt them and came within a whisker of winning the WC Final.

By contrast, Chile went after Spain in the WC and paid a heavy price; Nigeria went after them on Sunday and paid a price; Italy tried to replicate their group game approach in many aspects and got trounced in the final.

Bayern Munich crushed Barcelona this year, but Chelsea and Inter won by being tactical, defensive and physically aggressive. I think there is a notion of how best to take on Spain that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. I think the Dutch or US approaches from 2010 and 2009 respectively are the right approaches. Executing is the hard part, but it's an easier game plan to execute than what Chile tried to do against them in the last WC.

SlickRic

i know what you're saying Lloyd, but the Dutch approach should not even be acknowledged.

thuggery.

plus, a stronger referee would have sent someone off and Spain would've won in normal time.

LuckyLloyd

SlickRic wrote: »

i know what you're saying Lloyd, but the Dutch approach should not even be acknowledged.

thuggery.

plus, a stronger referee would have sent someone off and Spain would've won in normal time.

The Dutch did what they did and nearly won the world cup. It's a valid option, and hardly a novel one - Roy Keane on Overmars springs to mind. You gamble the ref doesn't reach for the yellow cards willy nilly in the first 20 minutes. If he doesn't, you are giving yourself a chance. Has to be the best option for playing Spain for many nations.

Giruilla

Jernal wrote: »

Yes, but you are making the mistake that everyone else is making.

You make it out like relative enjoyment of football has a universal logical basis to it!

Jernal wrote: »

It's the combination of the two teams that make the game interesting or not. Spain are so far ahead of the rest of world technically that if most teams doesn't compact themselves nice and tightly they'll be torn to shreds. Is that boring? Yeah possibly but it's not solely Spain's fault. The point here is that Germany are entertaining only because they're not so far superior to other top quality sides that they have to retreat into their shell.

I don't share that view at all.. dominant entertaining teams have always had teams retreat into their shell and yet the games are still entertaining to watch. I find Spains relentless passing around their back four and centre mids tiresome to watch. It has nothing to do with teams going into their shell or not. Theres nothing wrong with keeping possession.. it just depends on where on the pitch they're doing it. If they were doing it in the oppositions half and closer to final third I'd put them down as one of the great sides.. but its mostly in their own half. For this reason and because their games are so unmemorable, I'll never see them as one of the greats.

SlickRic

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You gamble the ref doesn't reach for the yellow cards willy nilly in the first 20 minutes.

no, you gamble that the ref doesn't do his job.

and doing a hatchet job should never be the option. ever. play negative football. get everyone behind the ball. niggle at them. foul them. that's all fine and understandable.

doing what the Dutch did was completely extreme and should not be an option for anyone IMO.

Bohrio

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Bayern Munich crushed Barcelona this year, but Chelsea and Inter won by being tactical, defensive and physically aggressive. I think there is a notion of how best to take on Spain that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. I think the Dutch or US approaches from 2010 and 2009 respectively are the right approaches. Executing is the hard part, but it's an easier game plan to execute than what Chile tried to do against them in the last WC.

Chelsea and Inter won by parking 10 men in their area and playing counter attack. That might work and get you a victory but, IMO apart from behaving like a small team (basically accepting you are inferior to them), it doesnt always work. I think that in total (both legs) Barcelona shot 60 times on chelseas goal?

Bayern crushed them and they didnt have park the bus to do it, they were, like dfx said, very organized and very aggressive. Also Barcelona havent been themselves for a few months (and personally I dont know if they will ever be again) but I would love to see another game between the best Barcelona (maybe the one 2 years ago) and this years Bayern, that would be a nice game to watch (not saying Barcelona would win nor bayern will just saying it could be a nice game to watch). There has been a few teams this year who have played Barcelona face to face and have come out quite well (Athletic Bilbao, Betis, Madrid)

And on a side note, regarding the Dutch in the WC final, is also a matter of how you want to lose or win, do you want to win a WC by playing dirty and using non football related strategies or do you want to win by playing football?

In the end, the end doesnt justify the means. I rather play good football and lose than play dodgy football and win.

Funny enough it was the Dutch team in the 1970s who made history with their football, despite never winning a WC final (74 and 78), 36 years later, every football aficionado will remember them and their Total Football. And this is the interesting part, nobody remembers who won those two WC finals now (Germany and Argentina btw), but they will never forget this Dutch team... they became legends

I am sure (or at least I hope) that Dutch people will feel immensely proud of their 1970s National team but not so much of the 2010 team. At least I would.

dreamers75

Bohrio wrote: »

sames as France in 1998 never won the Eurocup after that.

:pac:

Bohrio

dreamers75 wrote: »

:pac:

Oopss.. I mean consecutively! before and after the WC :S

Reganio 2

What time is kick off in today's game. Is it 7? Sorry in work and googled it on phone and it said 4pm assume that is their time zone.

miralize

Reganio 2 wrote: »

What time is kick off in today's game. Is it 7? Sorry in work and googled it on phone and it said 4pm assume that is their time zone.

8pm

klose

Bbc commentary on rte?

bennyl10

BBC taking over RTE commentary?..

Paully D

Lawro, great :rolleyes:

A Disgrace

That's not even the BBC feed.. What's going on?

Jax Teller

It was Clive Tyldesley off Itv . That was strange

Kirby

Does Marcello look a stone overweight to anyone else?