Price of a pint in Cork City.

Unclebumble

clerk wrote: »

Good post.

l'm delighted to have a proper debate about over €5 pints. What you say is valid but my basic point is l'm a disgruntled punter who won't pay over €5 for a pint.

I'm amazed that this issue hasn't got more attention in general. I reckon it's going to become a huge issue and publican's that think it won't have their heads buried in the sand.

I'm off to town tonight to find myself a new local with pints under €5.;)

I think the publicans need to have an informed discussion with the likes of Diageo etc., you can't get water out a stone albeit you'll get plenty of water in a pint.:D

What's next the €6 pint/bottle, that is madness and unsustainable even in the short term !!!

I agree that the price has to come down.

I think that one of the problems is the brand loyalty that Irish drinkers have shown.
For example in the Uk there is less brand loyalty and people tend to ask for "a pint of lager". Consequently, the publican can shop around for a cheaper product to sell.
Here I believe Heineken and Diageo have too strong a market hold and publicans are too afraid to tell them bugger off!
I think that is starting to change though, some pubs in Dublin are starting to stop selling Heineken/Diageo products.
It'll be interesting to see how they go!

I can't afford to go out - having a can at home now! cheers!

clerk

Unclebumble wrote: »

I can't afford to go out - having a can at home now! cheers!

Don't worry kid l don't get into town much these Days either and l'll be going even less the way things are going.

Cape Clear

RoyMcC wrote: »

11% of Irish pubs have closed since 2005. The rest have an average debt of €270,000 each. Maybe that's why they can't give beer away.

I'm not asking for the pints to be given away but I am asking for prices to become more realistic

rob316

clerk wrote: »

If you ask anybody to take a pay increase, supplier etc. they generally say no.

It's called running a business, you negotiate as many businesses have.

There are legal obligations of course but there already have been legal cases taken and the landlord has lost on the basis that the request is reasonable.

Or you could play hardball and tell him the business will close if costs aren't cut. If the business goes into liquidation and the Company is Limited the landlord will get fcuk all and will be left with an empty shell which he/she will have to rent out with probably a 50% decrease in Cork City.

Generally running costs, stationary, cleaning are all down. Just tell them to take 10% less and if they're not happy get a new supplier.

Tell the staff to take a 10% decrease if wages aren't down as most businesses have done already.

Get a proper lobby going and tell the drink suppliers the industry is going down the drain and they need to drop prices. The hotel industry successfully negotiated a 9% VAT rate.

Just stop passing every problem lazily onto the consumer.

You clearly dont run a business do you?

Say your staff are on minimum wage you expect them to take a 10% cut?
Rates are not down, most businesses cant afford them and are on payment plans with city hall to pay back arrears.
Rents are down for new tenants, if you have a long term lease on a property, your landlord is under no obligation to reduce your rent. Back in the boom loads of businesses signed leases with upward rent reviews only plenty of these still there today.

Douglas Eegit

Cape Clear wrote: »

I'm not asking for the pints to be given away but I am asking for prices to become more realistic

What's a realistic price for you?

clerk

rob316 wrote: »

You clearly dont run a business do you?

Say your staff are on minimum wage you expect them to take a 10% cut?
Rates are not down, most businesses cant afford them and are on payment plans with city hall to pay back arrears.
Rents are down for new tenants, if you have a long term lease on a property, your landlord is under no obligation to reduce your rent. Back in the boom loads of businesses signed leases with upward rent reviews only plenty of these still there today.

I am involved in running a business and deal with other businesses as well as it happens. I work in the retail trade and am very well acquainted with rent, rates and wage rates etc. As it happens 2 of my Uncles have run pubs too, one very successfully. Previously to my current role I have also experience in practice which included preparing the books of basic entry for pubs (Bank Recs/VAT returns/PAYE&PRSI returns etc).

To be honest the hardest thing with running a pub is keeping the punters happy, which is very difficult in fairness, apart from that it's hardy rocket science.

I never said rates were down, they are flat, albeit they are way too high agreed. l'm not talking about "most businesses", l'm referring specifically to City centre pubs that are charging over €5 for a pint.

If staff are on the minimum wage you can't give them a pay cut as it's illegal fair enough. Are you trying to tell me that all the staff in City pubs are on the minimum wage.

People always get fierce jumpy when you tell them that costs need to come down, the fact is they do. You get business owners that will say " Jesus, l couldn't do that to Joe, he's sound", "but Christ that supplier is related to wife", "I couldn't do that to the staff" etc. but the businesses that l deal that haven't genuinely cut costs in the last 3/4 Years are gone or going out of business. Most businesses that go out of business are badly run and refuse to change with the times which is in this economy is terminal.

I don't want to get too caught up on wages but if the business was in trouble would the staff prefer a 10% pay cut or have no job. Most people l know have taken pay cuts over the last 3/4 Years, l presume the pub industry is no different.

l know for a FACT of one business that negotiated a rent decrease with their landlord. The business l work in and it didn't even go legal. Sure legal is all part of the dance too, if it comes to it.

Welcome to the real World of cost reductions. It's shocking l know, the Celtic Tiger is dead.

gimmick

Has this all posted earlier pre the shutdown but feel it needs an airing all the same. Do here goes. Again.

A keg of Heineken costs approx €230. There are 88 pints in a keg. To break even on that keg you need to charge €2.61 per pint. Now that's assuming you have no rates, insurance or staff. Also it doesn't take into account a publicans need to make a profit. It is a business afterall.

So let's say per pints the above adds an extra €1 to it. Break even point now is €3.61. The bar now needs to be painted and the toilets re done. Where is the rainy day fund? So the publican adds another €0.50 to include his profit and money for the pubs account. That's €4.11 at least a fella has to charge for a pint. Tbh €5 is not a terrible price taking the above into consideration.

horgan_p

To be fair I think its a simple enough case of economics.

As long as people will pay €5 odd for a pint then pubs will charge it. If people stopped going to the expensive pubs then they have 2 choices - either drop prices or ,ultimately, go out of business.
I do think Wetherspoons will make a difference. If they are selling at €4 or €4.50 then people will be drawn to the pub and other bars will either drop the price to compete , offer better service to compete or ultimately go out of business.

Watch when its closer to the opening for vintners to pop up on the radio giving out about letting "foreign pubs" into the market place. Same thing happened when Lidl and Aldi opened up.
Now when I go into Tesco they are doing price comparisons with Lidl.


Say what you might but market forces will out.

For Forks Sake

gimmick wrote: »

Has this all posted earlier pre the shutdown but feel it needs an airing all the same. Do here goes. Again.

A keg of Heineken costs approx €230. There are 88 pints in a keg. To break even on that keg you need to charge €2.61 per pint. Now that's assuming you have no rates, insurance or staff. Also it doesn't take into account a publicans need to make a profit. It is a business afterall.

So let's say per pints the above adds an extra €1 to it. Break even point now is €3.61. The bar now needs to be painted and the toilets re done. Where is the rainy day fund? So the publican adds another €0.50 to include his profit and money for the pubs account. That's €4.11 at least a fella has to charge for a pint. Tbh €5 is not a terrible price taking the above into consideration.

Most pubs will only factor for selling 80 pints/keg to account for waste/spillage which makes it more expensive again.

Loire

How about smaller pints? Let's say 5 euro is the tipping point for many. At, or above this price people would stay away. Given that there is 568ml per pint, this works out at .88 cent per ml. How would people feel about a 450ml "pint" that costs 3.96?

rob316

I think €4 - €4.50 is a fair price for a pint today of the usual Heineken, Bud etc. You understandably have to pay more for the more craft type beers.

A bog standard pub that doesn't do food or anything else has to survive on the price of a pint and I find that understandable. But the likes of Soho are taking the piss as they all ready have a roaring food trade and late night trade which provides excellent profit margins. Charging someone €5.50 for a pint during the day is just plain greed nothing else.

sligoface

rob316 wrote: »

I think €4 - €4.50 is a fair price for a pint today of the usual Heineken, Bud etc. You understandably have to pay more for the more craft type beers.

A bog standard pub that doesn't do food or anything else has to survive on the price of a pint and I find that understandable. But the likes of Soho are taking the piss as they all ready have a roaring food trade and late night trade which provides excellent profit margins. Charging someone €5.50 for a pint during the day is just plain greed nothing else.

So they are having success with their business, whatever they are selling is in demand and people are buying it up, so they're going to lower their prices as a result? I wish businesses worked that way but they don't, they are not charities. Unless people stop paying it, it will continue, a loyal customer is just a cash cow to them, day or night. I agree that it is greedy what they charge, but it's to be expected, especially for as long as drinking is the national past time.

There is a pub in town here doing great, selling food, craft beer and has a good atmosphere with a good mix of patrons of various ages and goth sexes, from afternoon on, whilst all the others are either student pubs or old man pubs, which are cheaper but have crap atmosphere, bog standard beers only, and aregenerally empty during the afternoon/early evening. I like going to this pub, but they came out with a new menu which was basically a few new items thrown in to distract from all the other items still on it being put up in price by 2 euro. And on top of that the portions and quality have gone down. So I stopped eating there. And even though they do sell some cheap p!ss for 3 euro a pint, the price of anything nice is nearly a fiver with craft pints being 5.50, so I don't drink in there now either.

The place will do fine without me, but I just decided I'm not going to moan about how I was drinking there when the place was only opened and no one was in it and this isn't fair, because reality is no one owes me a cheap pint. I am just making my own business decision that I'm not going to allow myself to get ripped off while the pub owner gets richer.

All you can do is either go and pay it and enjoy it, or stay out and keep your money. Paying for it and moaning about it is madness, it's the worst of both worlds. Yer man expecting the staff to take a pay cut so he can have a cheaper pint is really in la-la land, bartenders make crap money and it's hard work dealing with drunk people all the time. By that logic you should ask your boss for a raise since the price of a pint has gone up. Doubt you'd get very far with that.

clerk

sligoface wrote: »

Yer man expecting the staff to take a pay cut so he can have a cheaper pint is really in la-la land, bartenders make crap money and it's hard work dealing with drunk people all the time. By that logic you should ask your boss for a raise since the price of a pint has gone up. Doubt you'd get very far with that.

Good post --- but the thing about the wages is being taken out of context, if you read through the thred you'll see how the topic progressed. I was saying that pints were going up and up in the last 3/4 Years but costs weren't. If wages in the pub trade are low then what is the excuse for the excessive pint pricing. People always get fierce emotional when you mention wages which is fair enough, therefore it's always difficult too have a rational discussion about wages but at the end of the Day it's a business cost. If the wages are low so be it - no need for further cuts there then.

Apart from that as you say vote with your feet, which I am doing.

clerk

horgan_p wrote: »

To be fair I think its a simple enough case of economics.

As long as people will pay €5 odd for a pint then pubs will charge it. If people stopped going to the expensive pubs then they have 2 choices - either drop prices or ,ultimately, go out of business.
I do think Wetherspoons will make a difference. If they are selling at €4 or €4.50 then people will be drawn to the pub and other bars will either drop the price to compete , offer better service to compete or ultimately go out of business.

Watch when its closer to the opening for vintners to pop up on the radio giving out about letting "foreign pubs" into the market place. Same thing happened when Lidl and Aldi opened up.
Now when I go into Tesco they are doing price comparisons with Lidl.


Say what you might but market forces will out.

Agree 100%.

clerk

gimmick wrote: »

Has this all posted earlier pre the shutdown but feel it needs an airing all the same. Do here goes. Again.

A keg of Heineken costs approx €230. There are 88 pints in a keg. To break even on that keg you need to charge €2.61 per pint. Now that's assuming you have no rates, insurance or staff. Also it doesn't take into account a publicans need to make a profit. It is a business afterall.

So let's say per pints the above adds an extra €1 to it. Break even point now is €3.61. The bar now needs to be painted and the toilets re done. Where is the rainy day fund? So the publican adds another €0.50 to include his profit and money for the pubs account. That's €4.11 at least a fella has to charge for a pint. Tbh €5 is not a terrible price taking the above into consideration.

Good and interesting post, what is there mark-up on long knecks and there's no spillage on bottles ( the other poster mentioned spillage) . Some pubs charging €5.75 for a long kneck Bulmers.

FTA69

Who in their right mind thought SoHo was a posh gaff? The amount of full on brawls I've seen outside of that place is unreal. More than I've seen anywhere else in town for that matter.

rob316

FTA69 wrote: »

Who in their right mind thought SoHo was a posh gaff? The amount of full on brawls I've seen outside of that place is unreal. More than I've seen anywhere else in town for that matter.

I think it used to be snobby when it first opened. I was in there one back holiday and in the space of ten mins there was 2 fights and in both fights they bit each other....****ing unreal. From what I hear its like where you go after you have outgrown the catwalk.:pac:

murphym7

One Wetherspoons opening in Cork city will make zero difference by the way. 4/5 Wetherspoon type places would make a difference, one will do nothing for the price of a pint in Cork.

gimmick

rob316 wrote: »

I think it used to be snobby when it first opened. I was in there one back holiday and in the space of ten mins there was 2 fights and in both fights they bit each other....****ing unreal. From what I hear its like where you go after you have outgrown the catwalk.:pac:

Thought that was The Grafton nah?

askU

3.50e pints daytime in some pubs ie. ROB ROY, BOHDRAN (Oliver plunket st)

What's the cheapest pint in city besides going to the likes of BLARNEY st?

ofcork

Must say I have never seen hassle in soho as long as ive been going there,it has gone downhill though.

gobnaitolunacy

rob316 wrote: »

I think it used to be snobby when it first opened. I was in there one back holiday and in the space of ten mins there was 2 fights and in both fights they bit each other....****ing unreal. From what I hear its like where you go after you have outgrown the catwalk.:pac:

They can't afford to be picky about who they let in now, the extra money spent by the great unwashed will more than pay for the handful of glasses they smash.

Paz-CCFC

gimmick wrote: »

Has this all posted earlier pre the shutdown but feel it needs an airing all the same. Do here goes. Again.

A keg of Heineken costs approx €230. There are 88 pints in a keg. To break even on that keg you need to charge €2.61 per pint. Now that's assuming you have no rates, insurance or staff. Also it doesn't take into account a publicans need to make a profit. It is a business afterall.

Are you sure about that €230 figure? When the pubs at Lansdowne Road threatened to stop buying from Diageo due to their high prices, the figure that was said that publicans pay was just over €130. I'm not 100% if that included VAT, but if it didn't, it'd still be €160. I can imagine the lager costing a bit more, but not that much. You can buy a single keg of Heineken for €240 from third parties online. I don't think pubs who regularly buy them and deal directly with the brewery are going pay just a tenner less than that.

But I agree with your general point that pints aren't that bad value. Some crowds will take the piss, but it's not too bad. And then you have drinks like Beamish and the cheaper lagers going for about €3.50 or less, when the bigger brands like Guinness and Heineken/Budweiser/Carlsberg etc. aren't really any better. It's the 330ml where the pubs are really taking the piss, though. You'd often see them going for the same price as a pint on tap, despite it being smaller and the stuff on tap costing more (taking into account the keg, taps, gas injected into the keg etc.). I don't think a 400%-500% mark-up on bottles would be rare.

rob316 wrote: »

I think €4 - €4.50 is a fair price for a pint today of the usual Heineken, Bud etc. You understandably have to pay more for the more craft type beers.

Sometimes you pay less. The Franciscan Well do pints of cask beer for €4 a pop. They also gave out loads of 2-for-1 vouchers around Cork for a specific drink every month, so you could be paying €2.50 a pint. Not bad.

gimmick

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Are you sure about that €230 figure? When the pubs at Lansdowne Road threatened to stop buying from Diageo due to their high prices, the figure that was said that publicans pay was just over €130. I'm not 100% if that included VAT, but if it didn't, it'd still be €160. I can imagine the lager costing a bit more, but not that much. You can buy a single keg of Heineken for €240 from third parties online. I don't think pubs who regularly buy them and deal directly with the brewery are going pay just a tenner less than that.

Its not far off it anyway and is definitely not as low as €130. I know it is definitely over €200. Now, presuambly the bigger pubs, like Reardens, will pay a lot less than a suburban pub due to the bulk buy, but still it will not be too far off €200 regardless.

FTA69

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Sometimes you pay less. The Franciscan Well do pints of cask beer for €4 a pop. They also gave out loads of 2-for-1 vouchers around Cork for a specific drink every month, so you could be paying €2.50 a pint. Not bad.

Does the Franciscan actually have hand-pumped cask ale on tap or is it still just gas pumped from a keg?

Also I think your pricing on the kegs are more or less correct. I remember a few managers quoting me a profit of €1.50 a pint a few years back.

FTA69

rob316 wrote: »

I think it used to be snobby when it first opened. I was in there one back holiday and in the space of ten mins there was 2 fights and in both fights they bit each other....****ing unreal. From what I hear its like where you go after you have outgrown the catwalk.:pac:

It was quite upmarket when it first opened up but went to the dogs soon after. I was bouncing in a pub near it and every weekend without fail I always saw bother there. And not just a bit of scuffling either but full on brawls with kicking, screaming and the rest.

I was in there over the Christmas period and it was no great shakes.

professore

horgan_p wrote: »

The woodford do half price on everything (!!) on mondays and tuesdays.
You buy a beer at full proce and your next pint is free.
Nearly fell off me stool when the bar staff told me

Fierce noisy in there. Maybe not on Mon or Tue though

the beer revolu

FTA69 wrote: »

Does the Franciscan actually have hand-pumped cask ale on tap or is it still just gas pumped from a keg?

Yes, The Well usually have something on cask.
Bierhaus often have a has a cask on.
The Abbot's occasionally have a cask on the go.
I'd imagine the The Porterhouse have cask offerings too.

Grim_Wreeper

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'd imagine the The Porterhouse have cask offerings too.

Yes, the last one I had in there was Metalman pale. Lovely.

clerk

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2014/01/24/new-businesses-now-not-liable-for-rates-arrears/

New businesses now not liable for rates arrears

By The Editor / January 24, 2014 / No Comments


New businesses tenants will no longer be stuck paying rates arrears from old tenants when they take over a new premises after the Government today intervened to end the practice.
The amendment will mean the new tenants will no longer be liable for the rates arrears of previous tenants. This will allow new businesses to take up new premises and existing businesses to change premises without the fear of having a massive rates bill hanging over them after they move in.

This comes after Phil Hogan, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, accepted legislation put forward by Waterford Deputy Paudie Coffey.

Business group, ISME, said it has been lobbying for this change for many years, which will have a positive impact on businesses all over the country.

“Under the old legislation, which dates back to 1838, tenants who left a property with rates arrears are not liable and instead the new tenant is forced to pay the rates arrears. This was a major barrier to businesses countrywide taking over new premises. The amendment will mean the new tenants will no longer be liable for the rates arrears of previous tenants. This will allow new businesses to take up new premises and existing businesses to change premises without the fear of having a massive rates bill hanging over them after they move in,” it said.