Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

linny

kikel wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJnq9c3036g&list=UUi47xmVKUReUllNWum9agRg

this is so disappointing behaviour from these people, trying to delay this bridge do they not drive or cycle in Kilkenny to know this bridge will be a life line for our city, This bridge will not divide Kilkenny it will only connect it further together

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

this is so disappointing behaviour from these people, trying to delay this bridge do they not drive or cycle in Kilkenny to know this bridge will be a life line for our city, This bridge will not divide Kilkenny it will only connect it further together

If you really care about this you should go down and protest to the protestors.

linny

Threadhead wrote: »

If you really care about this you should go down and protest to the protestors.

I think there are enough idiots there already.
Is there any plans to remove these protesters by way of court injunction

linny

Threadhead wrote: »

If you really care about this you should go down and protest to the protestors.

I think there are enough idiots there already.
Is there any plans to remove these protesters by way of court injunction

kikel

I'm one of those protesters. Who you calling an idiot?

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

I think there are enough idiots there already.
Is there any plans to remove these protesters by way of court injunction

You never know, all this protesting might work a charm and they could stop building the CAS after the review happens and then you won't have to worry about protestors ever again.

Schindlers Pissed

Well I think fair play to the protesters. They came out from behind the keyboards and are doing something about it. I always give them a beep when I'm passing......I hope they sway the powers that be into having a review.

We don't need a CAS, we need a ring road. This thing was first mooted years back when the brewery had over 1000 staff. Studies have since shown that these schemes don't work.

kikel

Thank you for your support, every time you pass and honk is so appreciated. Everyone that is part of this is doing it for the love of Kilkenny. We are pro progress, pro jobs, pro heritage and pro kilkenny. We all just feel that this is not the way forward.

The site is now manned 24 hours a day. The protesters really appreciate yours and the cities support. For anyone that is passing after 10pm can ye keep the honking to a minimum. The protest is taking a place in a residential area and we want to respect the people that live in the area.

randylonghorn

linny wrote: »

this is so disappointing behaviour from these people, trying to delay this bridge do they not drive or cycle in Kilkenny to know this bridge will be a life line for our city ...

No, linny, they don't know that.

In fact, you seem to be one of the very few Kilkenny people who I have encountered (in real life or online) who "knows" that!!

But I guess one has to admire the tenacity of your personal convictions ... much as one has to admire the tenacity of the personal convictions of those who are out protesting!

linny

randylonghorn wrote: »

No, linny, they don't know that.

In fact, you seem to be one of the very few Kilkenny people who I have encountered (in real life or online) who "knows" that!!

But I guess one has to admire the tenacity of your personal convictions ... much as one has to admire the tenacity of the personal convictions of those who are out protesting!

Lets just hope that there won't be any review this went through all the planning process and came out the other side and is now been built thankfully.

linny

randylonghorn wrote: »

No, linny, they don't know that.

In fact, you seem to be one of the very few Kilkenny people who I have encountered (in real life or online) who "knows" that!!

But I guess one has to admire the tenacity of your personal convictions ... much as one has to admire the tenacity of the personal convictions of those who are out protesting!

Lets just hope that there won't be any review this went through all the planning process and came out the other side and is now been built thankfully.

randylonghorn

linny wrote: »

Lets just hope that there won't be any review this went through all the planning process and came out the other side and is now been built thankfully.

Ah, then the planning process in this country is something else in which you have the utmost confidence?

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

Lets just hope that there won't be any review this went through all the planning process and came out the other side and is now been built thankfully.

I hope there's a review because the people I voted for in the local elections were the ones who said they'd call for a review if elected. And most of them were. There's a huge number of newly elected councillors who were barely sat in their seats before the CAS started which in itself is a sneaky and underhanded move. They were elected by people who want this review and the people of the city who voted for them deserve this review.

Cabaal

bloopy wrote: »

Are the pics of the new bridge posted a few pages back the actual design, or are they a piss-take mockup?

They are the actual designs, taken from the architects website and council website

bloopy

Cabaal wrote: »

They are the actual designs, taken from the architects website and council website

Yup. Seen the article in the KK People the other day which confirmed that.
That article seems to have generated a bit more interest in this road, though. I don't think people are too impressed by this bridge design.
Will see where this may be about to go.

miece16

linny wrote: »

this is so disappointing behaviour from these people, trying to delay this bridge do they not drive or cycle in Kilkenny to know this bridge will be a life line for our city, This bridge will not divide Kilkenny it will only connect it further together

exactly. we're not living in the 1500's anymore people. This bridge is needed for traffic. Just look at the state of greens bridge. I fail to see how this now bridge is going to produce more traffic into the city that all the "protersters" seem to keep spouting on about?

Threadhead

miece16 wrote: »

exactly. we're not living in the 1500's anymore people. This bridge is needed for traffic. Just look at the state of greens bridge. I fail to see how this now bridge is going to produce more traffic into the city that all the "protersters" seem to keep spouting on about?

Imagine you need to drive a HGV from one side of Kilkenny to the other? Greensbridge isn't equipped to keep taking the battering it has from HGV's over the years so we need a replacement. No one disagrees with that.

Imagine that replacement is a completed ring road which takes HGV's away from the city and reduces all traffic in the city centre?

Can you see why people would prefer no heavy traffic in the city centre rather than a bypass through the city centre which will encourage the same amount of traffic and more.

Why more traffic you ask? Imagine the Mart sites and Brewery sites are developed in the coming years and at least one of them will be (Brewery site). Now think of the uptake in traffic that these new developments will encourage and need. We are creating two brand new areas of the city centre. So this is where the increased traffic people are 'spouting' on about will come from.

We can't (or shouldn't) take traffic out of the city centre entirely but as a sustainable, apparently modern, 21st century city we need to reduce the amount of traffic (particularly HGV's) coming into the city. See here for more.

So if CAS facilitates the uptake in traffic in Kilkenny City centre + Current traffic = More traffic.

catbear

miece16 wrote: »

exactly. we're not living in the 1500's anymore people. This bridge is needed for traffic. Just look at the state of greens bridge. I fail to see how this now bridge is going to produce more traffic into the city that all the "protersters" seem to keep spouting on about?

It's about options, CAS is the wrong option.

Grats

catbear wrote: »

It's about options, CAS is the wrong option.

You're dead right - that is, according to a minority - and you are most certainly entitled to your opinion. But you ought to have the good grace to accept that this project was devised by experts and deemed necessary. The project was passed by a substantial majority of Councillors who after all represent the people of Kilkenny. Therefore it is disrespectful to that majority to continue with your protest.

I commend anybody who stands up for what they think is right. I also commend anybody who can acknowledge defeat and accept it graciously. This bridge is needed, is going ahead and will be completed for the benefit of all.

catbear

@grats, you can feel disrespected all you want but which experts are you talking about? We've already seen the Councils archeaologist being overruled by their governing authority and as we know from the past planning debacles like building on floodplains appointed experts have had their professional objections overruled by elected council.

As people can finally visualise the impact of the CAS they begin to see the better alternative. Public objections are only going to grow from here on in.

kikel

@Grats the people of Kilkenny were looking for a review of this project at election time. People now want to see what options are there. It is very unfortunate that Joe Crocket gave the go ahead of this bridge without money to complete either side of the bridge. i.e Mart and the houses at vicar street. The decision about the houses at Vicar street is not finalised yet. They could be retained. Mr Crockett is supposedly and expert himself as a CEO of town councils and his decisions of late should concern citizens of Kilkenny.

Catbear has pointed out the mess the council experts have made with regard to expert reports.

kikel

@miece16 the bridge is needed for traffic if we follow old ways of doing things. Most cities are now are trying to take cars and lorries out of cities under the http://www.smartertravel.ie/

A lot of people will probably say this is not possible in Kilkenny. It is into possible until we a lot of time into exploring the options. Putting all options on the table looking at the pros and cons of each.

Threadhead

Grats wrote: »

But you ought to have the good grace to accept that this project was devised by experts and deemed necessary.

Is something devised by experts and deemed necessary in the late 70's something we need in 2014? No it is not.

Also, this project has been requested to be put under review by a number of the recently elected current council, who are vehemently against the scheme. That the construction was started before they undertake this review is completely underhanded.

Grats, can you tell us why this bridge is needed? You have repeatedly refused to answer this, the simplest of questions.

kikel

Threadhead wrote: »

Grats, can you tell us why this bridge is needed? You have repeatedly refused to answer this, the simplest of questions.

Yes, I love to hear the answers to this. Nobody can come on an give an argument for it. Even Sue Nunn on KCLR is struggling to find someone in favour of it.

Grats

Sadly the anti CAS supporters assume that the majority in favour of this project are not informed. If it were the other way around those people would be accused of being condescending. The majority know the story, they trust our County Council and the real experts who devised the project. If at this stage the minority cannot understand why the CAS is needed after all the reports, consultations, negotiations, etc. then it is unlikely that they will ever. If they don't trust our council and the experts then why do they expect the majority of Kilkenny citizens to trust them?

As I said previously, I commend anybody who stands up for what they perceive as right. It can't be easy manning the protest day in, day out and holding a job down at the same time. But at some stage the choice of the majority has to be enacted.

Threadhead

Grats wrote: »

Sadly the anti CAS supporters assume that the majority in favour of this project are not informed. If it were the other way around those people would be accused of being condescending. The majority know the story, they trust our County Council and the real experts who devised the project. If at this stage the minority cannot understand why the CAS is needed after all the reports, consultations, negotiations, etc. then it is unlikely that they will ever. If they don't trust our council and the experts then why do they expect the majority of Kilkenny citizens to trust them?

As I said previously, I commend anybody who stands up for what they perceive as right. It can't be easy manning the protest day in, day out and holding a job down at the same time. But at some stage the choice of the majority has to be enacted.

Again, answer the question please.

Also, answer this question while you're at it: when did the majority choose this?

hi5

I would also like to know why this bridge is needed?

It doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't do anything.

Spend the money on extending the Ring Road from Castlecomer roundabout to the Freshford Road, this will eliminate the Greensbridge problem and take large amounts of traffic away from Troysgate/Irishtown.

randylonghorn

miece16 wrote: »

exactly. we're not living in the 1500's anymore people. This bridge is needed for traffic. Just look at the state of greens bridge. I fail to see how this now bridge is going to produce more traffic into the city that all the "protersters" seem to keep spouting on about?

Well, the County Council are justifying this development on the basis that it will carry more traffic, and that this is a good thing. So if you agree with / support them, how can you fail to see that this bridge is going to produce more traffic?

You can't have it both ways ... even in Ireland, where heaven knows we often try!

Grats wrote: »

You're dead right - that is, according to a minority - and you are most certainly entitled to your opinion. But you ought to have the good grace to accept that this project was devised by experts and deemed necessary.

So you put all your trust in experts ... or rather in the experts who deem this project necessary, which is far from all of them?

A few years ago, all the experts were telling us that the economy was not over-heating, that we were right to put so many of our eggs in the construction basket, that at worst we were facing a "soft landing" as the economy slowed down.

My father, who left school at 16, could see the writing on the wall as far back as 2004-2005, but the experts couldn't.

And you still expect us to put all our trust in experts, and sheepishly follow their lead without any attempt to critique or question?

Grats wrote: »

The project was passed by a substantial majority of Councillors who after all represent the people of Kilkenny. Therefore it is disrespectful to that majority to continue with your protest.

The people of Kilkenny who, at their first opportunity to vote after this project was unearthed from the basement of the County Council and dusted off, promptly elected a number of additional councillors opposed to it.

Grats wrote: »

Sadly the anti CAS supporters assume that the majority in favour of this project are not informed. If it were the other way around those people would be accused of being condescending. The majority know the story, they trust our County Council and the real experts who devised the project.

Grats, can you show any evidence of this majority?

Because while I readily admit that I haven't commissioned a scientific survey to gauge the tenor of current opinion in Kilkenny, certainly my personal experience is that the people I encounter day-to-day are increasingly at best dubious.

And no, I'm not involved in the protest, I don't go around asking everyone I meet "what do you think of the CAS?", I'm simply listening to ordinary people and noting how much more often the topic is coming up. And while it would certainly be an exaggeration to say that the majority are actively opposed, the strong impression I am getting is that the majority are in fact quite dubious ... "unconvinced" is perhaps as accurate a word as any.

I'm certainly looking in vain for this majority of yours who "know the story" and have whole-hearted trust in the County Council or the experts who devised this project.


Also:

Grats wrote: »

But at some stage the choice of the majority has to be enacted.

Threadhead wrote: »

Also, answer this question while you're at it: when did the majority choose this?

DerryRed

hi5 wrote: »

I would also like to know why this bridge is needed?

It doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't do anything.

Spend the money on extending the Ring Road from Castlecomer roundabout to the Freshford Road, this will eliminate the Greensbridge problem and take large amounts of traffic away from Troysgate/Irishtown.

Not being familiar with how projects such as CAS or indeed the Ring Road happen, I'd appreciated some insight that would help me when I speak with people who are in favour of the CAS.

When speaking with friends/relatives in favour of the CAS and I put it to them that the CAS money should be used to complete the Ring Road, their response is that this is not practical. They argue that money is allocated to particular projects and can't be transferred to a project that might take many years to get approved, if it gets approved at all. They say if a project like CAS is cancelled the money goes back into a central pot and will likely get allocated to another project in another town or city.

I'd appreciate if someone could give me some counter arguments to the viewpoint expressed above, so I'm better placed to debate this topic in the future.

catbear

DerryRed wrote: »

When speaking with friends/relatives in favour of the CAS and I put it to them that the CAS money should be used to complete the Ring Road, their response is that this is not practical. They argue that money is allocated to particular projects and can't be transferred to a project that might take many years to get approved, if it gets approved at all. They say if a project like CAS is cancelled the money goes back into a central pot and will likely get allocated to another project in another town or city.

I'd appreciate if someone could give me some counter arguments to the viewpoint expressed above, so I'm better placed to debate this topic in the future.

What's immediately apparent is that their argument is funding rather than design driven. That alone nullifies all arguments on matters of design, traffic management and future impact upon the tourism that makes Kilkenny a regional leader.

On the matter of available funding plenty of people got into property only because the banks were liberally giving out the money, then the same people ended up owing more than their property's worth and with higher taxes to fund the bailout of the banks that sold them the debt in the first place.

Why should the people of Kilkenny fall for the same ruse?

Just because there's funding available doesn't make it the right choice. We're knocking down ghost estates now, will we end up knocking down the CAS bridge when the ringroad is completed and people want the CAS congestion gone completely from the city core.

It's good you brought up this argument again as it's another one of these hypothetical unsubstantiated carrots that's dangled by those who for their own vested interests want this project to go ahead against all common sense.

There is a very clear alternative to CAS but a council compromised by vested interests will say anything to push this through. Until there's official government clarification saying there will never be funding for the ringroad then anything the council says about the ringroad funding can not be used as an argument for CAS.

To recap, when all other design and impact arguments are exhausted money is the only motivation for those trying to ram CAS through against public objection.

As we learned from the property bubble, putting prosperity before principle means losing both.