Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

obezyana

Cabaal wrote: »

So you think the generic design is acceptable and you're ok for it to go ahead in its current design? You think such generic designs do no damage to the city's image?

It won't damage a thing and you know it.

Tourists are in no way going to suddenly stop coming to visit KK. Your being dramatic, over hyping your viewpoint that it's going to be an eye sore. A few posts up mentioned the brewery and the ugly units there and sure they don't stop tourists coming do they?

Cabaal

obezyana wrote: »

It won't damage a thing and you know it.

Do I? More to the point do you?
Neither you or I know that it won't damage Kilkenny's image,

Of course if you have evidence that the new concrete bridge won't damage Kilkenny's medieval's image then by all means please post up the evidence.

at the end of the day modern designs are not what people want to see when they expect medieval architecture and history.

Tourists are in no way going to suddenly stop coming to visit KK.

Who said tourists would stop coming? I didn't say that at any stage

Your being dramatic, over hyping your viewpoint that it's going to be an eye sore.

So you're happy with the motorway flyover like design being used? You think its a good design and its in keeping with the city?

A few posts up mentioned the brewery and the ugly units there and sure they don't stop tourists coming do they?

The brewery is a pretty different setup, for a few reasons
- In its current image it was constructed in decades past where the realization that we shouldn't destroy our history and heritage just wasn't something most councils/people cared about. Modern = better was the viewpoint by many.
- Its a working site, tourists are aware its a working site when they did tours of it

Here we have a bridge, totally out of keeping and it does nothing to get rid of bottlenecks in the city when compared to the benefits of the outer ring road.

Its also being built in an age where we better understand the importance of history and heritage and where Kilkenny is a bigger tourist attraction then ever before, yet so much of the above seems to be ignored,

foxcoverteddy

Bravo Cabaal, Greens Bridge is beautiful, find one as good, it would be difficult, it should be preserved as a tourist attraction in it's own right.
I think the one at Jenkinstown is quite a beaut as well.
Crossing bridges Foxy

obezyana

Cabaal wrote: »

Do I? More to the point do you?
Neither you or I know that it won't damage Kilkenny's image,

Of course if you have evidence that the new concrete bridge won't damage Kilkenny's medieval's image then by all means please post up the evidence.

at the end of the day modern designs are not what people want to see when they expect medieval architecture and history.



Who said tourists would stop coming? I didn't say that at any stage



So you're happy with the motorway flyover like design being used? You think its a good design and its in keeping with the city?



The brewery is a pretty different setup, for a few reasons
- In its current image it was constructed in decades past where the realization that we shouldn't destroy our history and heritage just wasn't something most councils/people cared about. Modern = better was the viewpoint by many.
- Its a working site, tourists are aware its a working site when they did tours of it

Here we have a bridge, totally out of keeping and it does nothing to get rid of bottlenecks in the city when compared to the benefits of the outer ring road.

Its also being built in an age where we better understand the importance of history and heritage and where Kilkenny is a bigger tourist attraction then ever before, yet so much of the above seems to be ignored,

I'm not the one trying to force their view on other people. Your suggesting tourists won't come and anyone with a bit of sense knows that is not the case.

Waterford is a prime location for tourist activity because of it's history it also has a modern cable stay bridge not too far from Reginalds Tower in fact it's clearly visible from Reginald's Tower and that doesn't detract from one single thing in Waterford. The tourists still come they couldn't give two tosses about the bridge. In fact one could say that Rice bridge is an ugly yoke but again it doesn't stop the tourists coming.

Your argument is going no where because you cannot use tourists as the reason why this bridge is not good for KK.

obezyana

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Bravo Cabaal, Greens Bridge is beautiful, find one as good, it would be difficult, it should be preserved as a tourist attraction in it's own right.
I think the one at Jenkinstown is quite a beaut as well.
Crossing bridges Foxy

Foxy I always enjoy reading your posts they are fun to read but the comments about Greensbridge being beautiful and how it would be hard to find one better is just laughable it has to be one of the silliest things you have posted yet :P

foxcoverteddy

Come away from the argument regarding the new bridge, take a look at the five arch design of Greens Bridge, the construction was by a master mason, forget what the council have done to the road and the sides, it is a work of art.
Henley Bridge in Oxfordshire is very similar in design, I must admit one has to have a love of bridges, and though it has been spoilt and needs restoration greens Bridge is an asset to Kilkenny, perhaps we are lucky a new bridge will take the heavy traffic off this masterpiece.
We have not got a good history with bridges bu have a look at some of the thames bridges especially above Barnes Railway Bridge, it may help us all to respect Greens Bridge for what it is, a piece of Kilkenny History.
Foxy, hang on there is talk about the Waterford Bridges, no comparison, now people tourists come to see Tower Bridge, or even the one at Marlow on thames, Waterford has nothing on Kilkenny, lets look after our city.

Cabaal

obezyana wrote: »

I'm not the one trying to force their view on other people. Your suggesting tourists won't come and anyone with a bit of sense knows that is not the case.

I never once said tourists won't come, I said it'll damage Kilkenny Image. There's a difference which you appear to not understand.

Waterford is a prime location for tourist activity because of it's history it also has a modern cable stay bridge not too far from Reginalds Tower in fact it's clearly visible from Reginald's Tower and that doesn't detract from one single thing in Waterford.

The Waterford bypass bridge is just that, its part of the Waterford bypass.
Its designed to bring traffic totally away from the city so your failed attempt to compare Waterford to Kilkenny is pretty funny.

As for the claim its not far from Reginald Tower, the Waterford Bypass bridge is approx 4km away from Reginald Tower.

Compare that to Kilkenny where the new bridge and Johns bridge/Kilkenny Castle will be between 900metres and 1km away from it. Hardly in anyway similar to Waterford's setup
:rolleyes:

Waterford also has a far far weaker tourist industry when compared to Kilkenny and it always has done, up until the very recent viking triangle Waterford has always depended on the glass factory to bring in tourists and they were usually day trips that hardly visited the city.

The lack of thought about Waterford's image over the decades really shows unfortunately, while they have cleared up some of the quays alot of the old sheds were replaced with massive carparks and the awful looking grain silo's make for a very grim view from the quays.

The tourists still come they couldn't give two tosses about the bridge.

Or it seems they don't care about Waterford for the most part, again they have a weaker tourist industry then Kilkenny.

In fact one could say that Rice bridge is an ugly yoke but again it doesn't stop the tourists coming.

Indeed you could and it is awful looking, it is an awful ugly looking bridge but then it was built in the 1980's so odds are it was going to be ugly as hell.

There are alot of people they are not fans of its design

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/waterford-running-low-on-assets-for-the-future-1.1693981

Heavy traffic on the ugly Rice Bridge and its even uglier approaches makes for an intimidating journey to the railway station if you’re on foot. One of the really good ideas kicking around in Waterford would involve relocating the station further east, on the Suir’s north quay, with a Derry-style pedestrian bridge to the city.

Your argument is going no where because you cannot use tourists as the reason why this bridge is not good for KK.

You've failed to use Waterford as a adequate comparison...infact your attempts to do so were exceedingly poor, you've also failed to show how a poorly thought out road scheme and bridge design will not damage Kilkenny's image.

obezyana

Foxy are you mad Waterford has more history than KK. It is after all Ireland's oldest City. Anyway that's going off topic.

Back on topic I see what your saying about Greensbridge it was a nice bridge it had charm it was old it was built for as little traffic as possible but times have changed. Whether we like it or not Kilkenny is progressing and this new bridge is just one of those things being built in order to progress. It won't be such an eye sore as it is being suggested it won't keep tourists away they won't recoil with horror in fact they will still go do the tourist things and go away happy as they have seen a nice little place in Ireland with a lovely castle with some nice places to visit with very welcoming people. The bridge is not going to kill Kilkenny. I would not be a fan of it's location because I think it's needed more so down the river. I would be of the opinion that if it was possible to upgrade Greensbridge then that would be a viable option. But the planners in this instance have given the go ahead and if they felt it wasn't good for KK then I'm pretty confident it would not of got permission.

foxcoverteddy

I honestly believe that all of us are really saying the same thing, maybe in a roundabout way, Kilkenny is beautiful, it is and hopefully will always be the main attraction for tourists. CAS, Ring Roads a part of daily life, please just take a look at our neighbours, Waterford, Carlow, Carrick, Thurles, New Ross even Wexford, Kilkenny stands head and shoulders above all of them.
Our prime consideration should be to keep our city as a historical landmark for now and future generations.
The council must make sure our future is safe, long live Kilkenny.
Foxy flying the flag

obezyana

Cabaal wrote: »

I never once said tourists won't come, I said it'll damage Kilkenny Image. There's a difference which you appear to not understand.



The Waterford bypass bridge is just that, its part of the Waterford bypass.
Its designed to bring traffic totally away from the city so your failed attempt to compare Waterford to Kilkenny is pretty funny.

As for the claim its not far from Reginald Tower, the Waterford Bypass bridge is approx 4km away from Reginald Tower.

Compare that to Kilkenny where the new bridge and Johns bridge/Kilkenny Castle will be between 900metres and 1km away from it. Hardly in anyway similar to Waterford's setup
:rolleyes:

Waterford also has a far far weaker tourist industry when compared to Kilkenny and it always has done, up until the very recent viking triangle Waterford has always depended on the glass factory to bring in tourists and they were usually day trips that hardly visited the city.

The lack of thought about Waterford's image over the decades really shows unfortunately, while they have cleared up some of the quays alot of the old sheds were replaced with massive carparks and the awful looking grain silo's make for a very grim view from the quays.




Or it seems they don't care about Waterford for the most part, again they have a weaker tourist industry then Kilkenny.



Indeed you could and it is awful looking, it is an awful ugly looking bridge but then it was built in the 1980's so odds are it was going to be ugly as hell.

There are alot of people they are not fans of its design

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/waterford-running-low-on-assets-for-the-future-1.1693981






You've failed to use Waterford as a adequate comparison...infact your attempts to do so were exceedingly poor, you've also failed to show how a poorly thought out road scheme and bridge design will not damage Kilkenny's image.

Poor showing from me? Em ok what ever you say. As I have said I'm not shovin my pov on people in the manner you are. Iv already said before the bridge is not needed there it's needed down the river. Even at that all the people against it would moan about it down there and they including you will find something else to whine about.

If you can provide evidence of a bridge keeping tourists away from a place then I'll accept you may have a valid argument.

Cabaal

obezyana wrote: »

Foxy are you mad Waterford has more history than KK.

Not sure about more history then Kilkenny but I'll agree that Waterford has loads of history, hell it has more city walls left then Kilkenny has.

But the council in Waterford have done a piss poor job of making Waterford a popular tourist attraction for decades, its an awful shame.

It won't be such an eye sore as it is being suggested

So we'll take it you are happy with its design then?

I would be of the opinion that if it was possible to upgrade Greensbridge then that would be a viable option.

I doubt thats an option at all,

I'd imagine the remaining parts of Greens bridge are protected.

Despite the council making a mess of it back in the 1960's it still has architectural significance. it just needs to be cleaned up, again something the council haven't done like they should have,.

Cabaal

obezyana wrote: »

Poor showing from me? Em ok what ever you say. As I have said I'm not shovin my pov on people in the manner you are. Iv already said before the bridge is not needed there it's needed down the river. Even at that all the people against it would moan about it down there and they including you will find something else to whine about.

But the people against the CAS want the outer ring road completed,

The outer ring road would need a bridge as part of the design. People are not against the road and the associated bridge being completed.

What people are against its a poorly thought out and designed bit of road and bridge in the middle of the city, a design that does nothing to take HGV's away from the city.

If the ring road was completed it would take an awful lot of traffic away from residential area's in the city, traffic that has no other options when it comes to getting to the likes of the Freshford road etc.

Less traffic in area's means safer roads, a far more pleasant city to live in and visit

foxcoverteddy

Ring road or CAS? Remember this is no short term fix, we can save Greens Bridge hopefully, as for the new one, well only time will tell, it is a great pity more effort was not put into the design, though there is a rumour that Tesco had a hand in this, yep the road and bridge were supposed to be part of the deal, now whether or not this is just a rumour with no basis I cannot say, but the work is being done a fair old rate.

obezyana

Cabaal wrote: »

Not sure about more history then Kilkenny but I'll agree that Waterford has loads of history, hell it has more city walls left then Kilkenny has.

But the council in Waterford have done a piss poor job of making Waterford a popular tourist attraction for decades, its an awful shame.



So we'll take it you are happy with its design then?



I doubt thats an option at all,

I'd imagine the remaining parts of Greens bridge are protected.

Despite the council making a mess of it back in the 1960's it still has architectural significance. it just needs to be cleaned up, again something the council haven't done like they should have,.

I'm using my phone so I cannot break up quotes in the manner you can so sorry I'll just have to keep quoting the whole post (it's a pita to cut edit etc)

TBF Waterford has more historical significance than KK. I don't think we need to dispute that as it will just bring the discussion to a place where no one wants it to go. If it does you will have to put your Mod hat on. This is about KK and a hotly disputed bridge.

Regarding the design of the bridge I don't think it's that bad. If they could of designed something with more character then maybe yes it would be better but I still think the current design is not going to put off tourists as you say it is.

Old style bridges like Greenbridge are beautiful and if viable for their area then why not keep them but in this case Greensbridge is no longer a viable option.

obezyana

Cabaal wrote: »

But the people against the CAS want the outer ring road completed,

The outer ring road would need a bridge as part of the design. People are not against the road and the associated bridge being completed.

What people are against its a poorly thought out and designed bit of road and bridge in the middle of the city, a design that does nothing to take HGV's away from the city.

If the ring road was completed it would take an awful lot of traffic away from residential area's in the city, traffic that has no other options when it comes to getting to the likes of the Freshford road etc.

Less traffic in area's means safer roads, a far more pleasant city to live in and visit

My problem with your argument is that you suggest that the tourists will hate it and they won't come back and that is not the case. I think the Ring Road will be built and yes KK needs it more than the CAS. I don't dispute that I never have I dispute the whole tourist angle that you have goin on.

Rantan

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Come away from the argument regarding the new bridge, take a look at the five arch design of Greens Bridge, the construction was by a master mason, forget what the council have done to the road and the sides, it is a work of art.
Henley Bridge in Oxfordshire is very similar in design, I must admit one has to have a love of bridges, and though it has been spoilt and needs restoration greens Bridge is an asset to Kilkenny, perhaps we are lucky a new bridge will take the heavy traffic off this masterpiece.
We have not got a good history with bridges bu have a look at some of the thames bridges especially above Barnes Railway Bridge, it may help us all to respect Greens Bridge for what it is, a piece of Kilkenny History.
Foxy, hang on there is talk about the Waterford Bridges, no comparison, now people tourists come to see Tower Bridge, or even the one at Marlow on thames, Waterford has nothing on Kilkenny, lets look after our city.

what ever about your taste in coffee foxy I must say I do appreciate your views on historic bridges! I love greens bridge...anything crafted from cut stone trumps concrete and steel anyday, anywhere, anytime....

kikel

I have to say I'm with foxy on this matter. Are we getting toilets?

bloopy

Works on the bridge have been ordered to stop apparently. A temporary stop at the moment. Just heard it on Todayfm so do not have a link to any stories at the moment.
Apparently it is being stopped for environmental reasons as proper procedure has not been followed in what is designated a special conservation area.
Will post a link as soon as I can find one.

bloopy

Found one

http://www.newstalk.ie/Resident-seeks-court-order-to-stop-construction-of-Kilkenny-bridges

foxcoverteddy

Very interesting situation me lady, should the council have been aware of the rare species, yes of course, whosoever went ahead and signed the contract may well be in a difficult position, council or not one cannot do as one likes.
Legal beagles come forward and tell us more, as it looks like we are going to fork out quite a lot of dosh.
I predict the bridge will never be finished at that point, maybe further away, bang there goes the toilets.
Foxy

kikel

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Very interesting situation me lady, should the council have been aware of the rare species, yes of course, whosoever went ahead and signed the contract may well be in a difficult position, council or not one cannot do as one likes.
Legal beagles come forward and tell us more, as it looks like we are going to fork out quite a lot of dosh.
I predict the bridge will never be finished at that point, maybe further away, bang there goes the toilets.
Foxy

Can we still have toilets?

nuttz

bloopy wrote: »

Found one

http://www.newstalk.ie/Resident-seeks-court-order-to-stop-construction-of-Kilkenny-bridges

Brilliant news, hopefully things can be delayed til October

linny

nuttz wrote: »

Brilliant news, hopefully things can be delayed til October

sweet fxxk another quack can we not just build this badly needed bridge

catbear

141_Oscar_Mike wrote: »

Nice to see your concern for the environment in that comment. Using this to fuel the agenda are we?

The current negligence of the project overseers perfectly displays their contempt for the common good in pushing through this Congestion Acceleration Scheme when a low impact viable alternative is available in the completion of the ring road.
This a regressive project straight out of 70s urban planning that is in reverse everywhere else.

foxcoverteddy

G'Morning folks, well I must admit that perhaps this matter should have come to the fore much sooner, if and as I said the Council would have been fully aware of the ecological implications of their actions.
Does this now come down to an act of Ultra Vires? Going beyond their powers, building in a conservation area?
It could well be that those responsible could well be up to their eyes in this, and we who democratically elected them facing a legal bill, an interesting situation.
Who has the authority to take this matter further, Central Government?
Legal Foxy

Rantan

linny wrote: »

sweet fxxk another quack can we not just build this badly needed bridge

shockingly ignorant generalisation

at what point - in your world view - does someone who doesn't share the same opinions as yourself stop being a quack?

Is that judge who ordered the stop a "quack" too?

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

sweet fxxk another quack can we not just build this badly needed bridge

Where would a troll be without a bridge? I hope you get one for Christmas.

I'm not even slightly surprised that their rush job to get this bridge in place has resulted in this. And I'm sure a lot more information will come to the fore.

Cowboys Ted.

Cabaal

linny wrote: »

sweet fxxk another quack can we not just build this badly needed bridge

So the judge shouldn't uphold the proper laws by putting a hold on the project?
So to hell with the environment?

Seems you want this bridge at any cost, to hell with the environment and the judge in your view also appears to be a quack for doing his job by putting a hold in place....on a bridge you just want built.
:rolleyes:

Cabaal

141_Oscar_Mike wrote: »

Go back a few years and look what was done to the river during the flood relief program. Concern for the environment? Bullsh*t.

Yeah they ruined the river when they did alot of that work, pretty sure not everyone was in support of it.

Just because they potentially got away with ignoring the environment in the past should not mean they can continue to do so,

foxcoverteddy

One can understand the frustration of both the those in favour and those against; however we all agree Kilkenny needs an alternative to Green's Bridge.
I have so far not seen any figures for expected traffic flow through Dean Street and Irishtown, obviously the parking situation in Dean Street will be unacceptable as it should be at this time, I feel down to earth figures are very thin on the ground
Not withstanding that please keep clear of sniping, we must accept our
council has ignored conservation obligations, whether they have attempted to hoodwink the electorate is open to further discussion.
The signing of the contract just prior to an election is questionable, and more questions could well be asked as to why, there appears to be an indecent haste to get the work started, when it was possible the major party could well lose it's majority and the CAS not abandoned but an alternative proposal.
Having paid so many so called experts one more was not going to make much difference.
It has been said and to a degree cannot be refuted that Kilkenny needs a ring road completion and a new bridge plus something worth while on the old brewery, something that will stand the test of time.
One can ignore the red herring regarding tourists and the bridge, the Castle is the magnet, much of the olde world charisma of our city has been destroyed, yes we have to move forward but like it or not tourists want this and not your modern non descript buildings.
Protect our city, Foxy, and stick together by all means agree or disagree
but nicely.