Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

foxcoverteddy

So far we have been polite and treated this matter with a degree of seriousness; but has it now as a result of the revelations become a serious issue, surely a council cannot act in an irresponsible way without serious legal implications.
Can we call for the resignation of those responsible for accepting the pedestrian bridge and insist the makers remove the existing one and replace it with what was ordered.;
In view of what has transpired can we now get the CAS bridge nullified until a decent design is made available.
Foxy

galwaycyclist

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

So far we have been polite and treated this matter with a degree of seriousness; but has it now as a result of the revelations become a serious issue, surely a council cannot act in an irresponsible way without serious legal implications.
Can we call for the resignation of those responsible for accepting the pedestrian bridge and insist the makers remove the existing one and replace it with what was ordered.;
In view of what has transpired can we now get the CAS bridge nullified until a decent design is made available.
Foxy

Ok the problem with that is that the council are the enforcement authority for planning decisions in their area.

One of the flaws with the Irish system is that this includes projects where it is the council that is the developer.

Bord Pleanala for instance does not have any power to enforce its own decisions. That is a local authority function.

As a private citizen you could take a case to the high court but probably you would have to argue that you personally were injured in some way by the councils failure to comply with their own planning permission. As far as I know, as a private citizen, you couldn't expect to apply to the high court seeking compliance with planning purely on principle.

Edit: Bear in mind also that in Ireland, council officials can effectively write themselves a blank cheque for defending legal actions and personally face no sanction for the poor use of any such moneys.

kikel

Hey Galway,

Interesting you mention compliance. I did hear on twitter that in the high court the council failed to produce the compliance report on the bridge. Really weird that they would not produce it when asked. Have the something to hide we wonder.

galwaycyclist

kikel wrote: »

Hey Galway,

Interesting you mention compliance. I did hear on twitter that in the high court the council failed to produce the compliance report on the bridge. Really weird that they would not produce it when asked. Have the something to hide we wonder.

<my (biased) 20 cents worth>

My experience is with Galway City Council which is a particularly dysfunctional organisation (in my view). I would argue that council officials always have something to hide - even when they have nothing to hide. There is a toxic culture in some local authorities. One aspect of this culture is an attitude is that "information is power" and that being open and honest with stakeholders is a sign of weakness - even of disloyalty to the institution. Trying to hide things appears to an integral part of the culture part of the "dna".

Lack of accountability for decisions is part of the problem. When you cant be held accountable for poor decisions there is no incentive to improve your decision making processes.

Which of course does not really answer your original question.

foxcoverteddy

Thank you "GalwayCyclist", your brief synopsis really does define the problem with the CAS and to a degree the pedestrian bridge; known as the Lady Dysert Bridge.
Whilst we did believe, at least I did that all decisions were based on a democratic ball park, it appears that this is not so.
If a council has the power to make decisions that cannot be challenged, the populous is in a very difficult situation, whilst I would say that in the main the council have to have the authority to govern for the benefit of the people, however such far reaching plans as the CAS appear to have been put in place, despite the public outcry.
Subsequent revelations regarding the Lady Dysert bridge invoke a justifiable concern as to the behaviour of the council.
Bearing in mind that the council in twenty years has not as yet finalised the completion of the ring road, and that the CAS will force more congestion in the city, together with the building development of the old brewery site.
How safe are the residents of the county where a council is all powerful, are we dealing with a plutocratic regime?
History has a very long tooth.

Rantan

pegasus1 wrote: »

Eh the design for the pedestrian bridge already finished is different to the one that the council agreed on...so this same builder isnt reputable then..hmmm

I don't understand your argument?

What has the design the council agreed upon for lady Dysart bridge got to do with the specification for stone supplied on the CAS?

I think you need to understand the processes at work a little better here.....contractors don't go erecting/building bridges, roads etc at a whim

The contractor will only erect the bridge they have been employed to erect and which is specified in their contract with the council. If they deviated the council would more than likely penalise them. The fact that the bridge is differrent to the one the council agreed on is not the necessarily the contractors fault. IMO - the design probably changed several times following the councilor's approved it and no one in the council managing the project bothered to bring that to their attention - hence the change

pegasus1

Proves than even in a democratic society, that the government is king, and the councils, sorry civil servants, in a county are knights..answerable not to the people around them, but to the king/civil servants under the government...smacks of a hidden dictatorship...when one was in school, who knew the better plan was to become a civil servant...you might get to run the country or the county...

Rantan

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

So far we have been polite and treated this matter with a degree of seriousness; but has it now as a result of the revelations become a serious issue, surely a council cannot act in an irresponsible way without serious legal implications.
Can we call for the resignation of those responsible for accepting the pedestrian bridge and insist the makers remove the existing one and replace it with what was ordered.;
In view of what has transpired can we now get the CAS bridge nullified until a decent design is made available.
Foxy

Can I assume from this that so Foxy you are intimate with the details of the order placed with the contractor?

Rantan

galwaycyclist wrote: »

<my (biased) 20 cents worth>

My experience is with Galway City Council which is a particularly dysfunctional organisation (in my view). I would argue that council officials always have something to hide - even when they have nothing to hide. There is a toxic culture in some local authorities. One aspect of this culture is an attitude is that "information is power" and that being open and honest with stakeholders is a sign of weakness - even of disloyalty to the institution. Trying to hide things appears to an integral part of the culture part of the "dna".

Lack of accountability for decisions is part of the problem. When you cant be held accountable for poor decisions there is no incentive to improve your decision making processes.

Which of course does not really answer your original question.

good point,,,,but unfortunately there is a bigger picture here - this trait seems to be a particularly Irish thing and is not just confined to local authorities. At the end of the day, the people who work for these institutions are just ordinary people.

pegasus1

I was talking to an american tourist the other day, and he worked in the environment section of the local government and he said the same thing what we are going through with the bridge happens over there all the time....they have court cases a lot of the time so to speak... So maybe the council had that put into the costings anyhow..

foxcoverteddy

My opinion was formulated from the post by our Mod Cabaal, where he outlines the differences in the proposed foot bridge to what appeared, on that basis would we get the CAS bridge proposed or with variations.
Surely the council employee responsible for signing off the bridge would have to bear a high degree of responsibility.
Okay throw in at the end of the day they are just ordinary people, unfortunately there are some very ordinary people who set themselves up as above this level, I regret I am a very ordinary person.
The CAS will play such an important part in the development of Kilkenny and with the speed construction has taken place, isn't there a need to ensure we at least get what has been proposed irrespective of whether the masses like it or not?
Your contributions have been of great help together with "GalwayCyclist" to perhaps overcome basic building situations that one might not be aware of.
Grateful Foxy

Rantan

chances are that the CAS bridge will vary from what is proposed.

It happens all the time - but don't forget that the current design is only "proposed" - proposals change.

pegasus1

Passed by the ossary bridge both above and below...and the pedestrian bridge has arrived in sections...seems a nice wooden structure..puts the existing bridge to shame...
oh if anyone wants to walk to bennitsbridge, you cant, they closed off the footpath heading further down the river...i had later on passed a load of school kids on a walk who were walking to bennitsbridge, i hope they succeeded..

Rantan

pegasus1 wrote: »

Passed by the ossary bridge both above and below...and the pedestrian bridge has arrived in sections...seems a nice wooden structure..puts the existing bridge to shame...
oh if anyone wants to walk to bennitsbridge, you cant, they closed off the footpath heading further down the river...i had later on passed a load of school kids on a walk who were walking to bennitsbridge, i hope they succeeded..

spotted that last night - yeah it does look good,,,,considering the location and the profile of each location one would have thought that the nicer, wooden structure would suit better in town? maybe they just put the wrong bridge in the wrong place!?
Spose we should wait and see how it looks in situ....I don't mind the other one TBH, not the nicest bridge in the world, granted, but I use it regularly just coz I can a lot of the time and I like that part of town and the new perspectives that the bridge gives - its better to look at the positives it offers now than going on about the negatives IMO..

pegasus1

Its not over yet!!

From the kilkenny people facebook page

Its understood the Central Access Scheme injunction rejected by the High Court has been appealed to the Supreme Court....

kikel

pegasus1 wrote: »

Its not over yet!!

From the kilkenny people facebook page

Its understood the Central Access Scheme injunction rejected by the High Court has been appealed to the Supreme Court....

Well holy god miley

pegasus1

Just walked by the construction of the ossary pedestrian bridge..
With just one nights rain the causeway of stone under the ossary bridge is covered with a few inches of water ...the workers are frantically installing the center section at the moment with the water level just four or so inches from the center bridge section lying on the causeway...

Grats

The work on the new bridge is continuing. Any news from the Supreme Court?

Dozen Wicked Words

All that fencing is an eyesore, seems to extend further down the path than it needs to too. Grim.

Grats

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

All that fencing is an eyesore, seems to extend further down the path than it needs to too. Grim.

That's only temporary, I guess it was put up for a very good reason like any building site. We can look forward to having it taken down when the bridge is finished.

Dozen Wicked Words

Grats wrote: »

That's only temporary, I guess it was put up for a very good reason like any building site. We can look forward to having it taken down when the bridge is finished.

Yeah knew it was temporary, still ugly as sin. It extends out on to path a lot further than initial temp fence which I don't see the need for. Flush with site entrance was more than adequate.

Grats

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Yeah knew it was temporary, still ugly as sin. It extends out on to path a lot further than initial temp fence which I don't see the need for. Flush with site entrance was more than adequate.

Hardly anybody uses that path anyway but I take your point.

Dozen Wicked Words

Grats wrote: »

Hardly anybody uses that path anyway but I take your point.

No true enough it was never a bustling path!

kikel

Press release from Save Kilkenny.

https://www.savekilkenny.com/supreme-court-paves-the-way-for-an-october-20th-hearing/

Press release from KKCC

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/RSSLatestNewsAndAnnouncements/Press-Release-Supreme-Court-refuses-applications-for-injunctions-against-Kilkenny-County-Council.37122.shortcut.html

kikel

This is a very interesting article. The Chairman of Kilkenny County Council states that he has won a WAR against the people of Kilkenny that he was elected to represent.


http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/no-injunctions-as-millea-says-the-case-is-over-the-war-is-won-1-6314020

Does he really feel that he is fighting a war. A real poor choice of words from a guy that is meant to be representing the people of KK.

The whole thing is getting very heated at the moment. There have also been threats to shoot some of the protesters. I wouldn't take these to seriously but it is uncalled for. People have a right tom use the courts system that is available to them.

foxcoverteddy

I would suggest such words from such a person demands an immediate apology to the people of Kilkenny and resignation of the said person.
One cannot and must not use such language, it suggests that the council was prepared to go any length to build the bridges irrespective of the consequences.
No he was not elected to do whatever he wanted, it is a democracy not a dictatorship, perhaps the man does not realise the difference, come the next election he may well rue the day.
As I stated history is a strange bed fellow, so beware what emanates from that quarter if this is the way forward, I think not.
Foxy

Threadhead

Pat Millea is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Nice to see Kilkenny has gotten its own Sepp Blatter.

Dozen Wicked Words

Certainly using the word war seems ott and a bit inflammatory, it's obvious now though that this is his vanity project.

A really bog standard, unappealing bridge, of questionable usefulness. Not sure I'd want that to be my mark on the city.

foxcoverteddy

Unfortunately this is not his personal property or domain, he is only an employee of the people of Kilkenny and as such the use of inflammatory words suggests he has been reading about European history.
It is time to rid ourselves of a possible future problem, as we will no doubt have a bridge named the Millea Way and possibly a statue on the parade.
The siting of the bridge becomes of less importance when one has to deal with a person who dictating to the population, we do not need an employee of this aggressive nature.
Such matters should be dealt with compromise and agreement, it is perhaps in the hands of the councillors, perhaps they fear for their future?
Save our city please, Foxy

Cabaal

kikel wrote: »

This is a very interesting article. The Chairman of Kilkenny County Council states that he has won a WAR against the people of Kilkenny that he was elected to represent.

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/no-injunctions-as-millea-says-the-case-is-over-the-war-is-won-1-6314020

Thats a pretty worrying viewpoint he has,

If you are at war that means you see the other side as the enemy, to see the people of Kilkenny as the enemy is a seriously worrying outlook for any public representative to have :eek: