Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

Rantan

Captain Havoc wrote: »

City wall is further down at Watergate bridge.

yeah but...wasnt Irish town also walled as a seperate settlement outside the city walls? I thought there was something in teh layout of dean st and vicar street that linked it to the irish town boundary. Im not certain to be honest so would love to know for sure...if anyone else knows??

sorry...just found the walls conservation plan onnlline..it has loads of maps showing the walls.irish town was walled but followed a differrent line to waht I said..so apppologies..I was wrong about the walls following dean st/vicar st....

Threadhead

Great turnout on Saturday.

Here's a video of the protest and the walk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ6yC-JNkyY

redtelephone

Excellent video, congrats to everyone.

road_high

My biggest worry is all the public money that has been sunk into this project.

foxcoverteddy

Well said Sir, we know who not too vote in next time, however as much as I understand the feeling of preservation; the destruction of the old part of the city; the need to complete the ring road and a good few other road programmes; what will we do with the area?
Is it the fact that other projects should have been dealt with before this one, yes of course, it still leaves us with a big scar to deal with.
Yes the council is very lax and can be said to be out of touch with the rest of the community; at some stage plans have got to be made for the future of Kilkenny; you cannot deny at this time the city appears to be flourishing as opposed to some of our neighbours, people still say I love to come shopping in Kilkenny; so we really do have to move forward at some point.
Whether you like it the mart site will eventually become a shopping area, what shops it attracts is another question?
We do not want some scruffy rag tag set=up, we want something that is going to bring in revenue to the city, you might laugh but we need to have something akin to Grafton Street in the South East.
There isn't a town in the South East which has a reasonable shopping area, other than our own city, even that is not really a match but it is probably the best there is.
So Kilkenny has to stop and take stock of where it wants to go, how do we integrate the old and the new? It has to be done and properly, I feel the Market Cross was poor planning in many respects but it was like a heart beating, and now it needs major surgery for it to last through another decade or so.
You cannot remove the centre of the city, we depend on the tourist attraction element, again look at our neighbours retail parks all over the bloody place and the centres become ghost towns, Kilkenny has too much history to throw it all away.
I can honestly say I cannot tell if the CAS is good or bad if you take an overall concept, we do know traffic numbers will increase it time and then people will be clambering for the council to do something.
We want something that will stand the test of time, that people will say "brilliant planning" what ever that might be, who knows.
Going to Dublin, it certainly isn't high rise glass fish bowls, which has left the capital city somewhat jaded on the edges, we must make sure Kilkenny remains the jewel in the South East and that the right people are it's protectors for the future generation.
Rest my case, regards to all Foxy.

Rantan

Whether you like it the mart site will eventually become a shopping area, what shops it attracts is another question?

well said and i agree with most - but why does the Mart site absolutely have to be a shopping destination?

a sensible mixed development would be better for KK in my opinion. Some ideas; a new cinema(maybe something like the lighthouse or the IFI in Dublin with a movie shop, bar, clubs etc) a proper museum for Kilkenny and the region, incorporating all the elements of killkennys history, from its early roots up to its industrial boom with its mills, brewerys, tanners, coal mines(ok the discovery park is already there) etc. etc.
A permanent farmers market(is there still one out in the Hub?), arts crafts centre and workshops, shopping, (a small tesco express.....) a skate park and some green space ammenities, an open air venue would be good, somewhere for regular small to medium size out door events and concerts...
I just dont see why the whole thing has to be devoted to "shopping" and lets just fill it with the same old brands that inhaibat every other corner of western europe

foxcoverteddy

There you go, what a brilliant post, you have managed to define; I would suggest that would make our city the permanent jewel of the South East, something people not only from the surrounding area but much further afield would want to come and see.
You have a vision beyond the norm, I got to say it, but forgive me; The Martin Luther King of Kilkenny, and it came to light.
Think about it, if you wanted to go out for the day where is there any where to go, there is not a town within 100 miles that is worth going to, exclude Dublin for the moment.
Kilkenny has it's ancient past and it has currently a unique shopping facility, with your suggestion it would have a sustainable future for business and visitors alike.
Before anyone decides to alter your vision, making Kilkenny prosperous will attract fringe businesses, to have a Kilkenny address will be something to cherish, exaggerating a bit like Fifth Avenue, Paris and City of London, Piccadilly.
Provided we have the right people in the right places, now is the time to move, we have the opportunity, go out and do it. Kilkenny Ireland inc
Foxy.

randylonghorn

Rantan wrote: »

but why does the Mart site absolutely have to be a shopping destination?

a sensible mixed development would be better for KK in my opinion. Some ideas; a new cinema(maybe something like the lighthouse or the IFI in Dublin with a movie shop, bar, clubs etc) a proper museum for Kilkenny and the region, incorporating all the elements of killkennys history, from its early roots up to its industrial boom with its mills, brewerys, tanners, coal mines(ok the discovery park is already there) etc. etc.
A permanent farmers market(is there still one out in the Hub?), arts crafts centre and workshops, shopping, (a small tesco express.....) a skate park and some green space ammenities, an open air venue would be good, somewhere for regular small to medium size out door events and concerts...
I just dont see why the whole thing has to be devoted to "shopping" and lets just fill it with the same old brands that inhaibat every other corner of western europe

Well said.

Kilkenny has good opportunities available to it at the moment: there's the mart site, the brewery site, etc.

A bit of creativity and thinking outside the box would be wonderful; make something of them that would enhance the city's attractiveness to tourists AND enhance facilities for the locals.

"Moar shops" certainly doesn't do much for the first, and I'm not sure if it does much for the second either? Many of the existing shops are finding it very hard to survive.

The brewery site might be a better venue for things like a museum etc.? ... a proper integrated museum and interpretative centre and archives and perhaps even a Centre for Medieval Studies with a third level link (or preferably links, multiple!), catering to serious students and researchers as well as to tourists and to the local community? The little Brewery Museum or Exhibition Hall or whatever they call it is already there to start from as well.

A mix of crafts shops and workshops (with perhaps a way for tourists / visitors to do things like a half-day pottery workshop, etc.), farmers' market, open space, a skate park, open-air venue, all sounds like a good mix. A couple of cafes and *appropriate* shops. Maybe a few townhouses or apartments ... not many, and it's not like Kilkenny has a shortage really, but experience in other towns and cities shows that leaving such developments essentially deserted at night with no residential element has a tendency to attract crime and anti-social behaviour. The inclusion of things which would cater to children and teenagers, both local and visiting, would seem to make sense ... most of the attractions which bring tourists to Kilkenny are geared to adults, with not a lot of things for children / families, especially when the weather doesn't co-operate.

I really can't comment re: a cinema ... I would have thought cinemas would have seen a big drop in business with netflix and other online options, but maybe I'm wrong in that?

Rantan

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well said.

The brewery site might be a better venue for things like a museum etc.? ... a proper integrated museum and interpretative centre and archives and perhaps even a Centre for Medieval Studies with a third level link (or preferably links, multiple!), catering to serious students and researchers as well as to tourists and to the local community? The little Brewery Museum or Exhibition Hall or whatever they call it is already there to start from as well.

?

yes, a uni or some third level institution woujld be great..the ide of a college for KK has been knocking around since the 1600's what a missed opportunity for teh town ...could we cope with a few 1000 pissed up students though? would they be any worse than the hen/stag crowd in all fairness??

randylonghorn

Rantan wrote: »

yes, a uni or some third level institution woujld be great..the ide of a college for KK has been knocking around since the 1600's what a missed opportunity for teh town ...could we cope with a few 1000 pissed up students though? would they be any worse than the hen/stag crowd in all fairness??

Yep, Kilkenny actually had (for a period of circa six months) what as far as I am aware would have been the second oldest university in Ireland, after Trinity. The Royal College of St. Canice's was granted a charter by James II in Feb 1690, a Rector and professors appointed, and the then vacant Kilkenny College and its endowments handed over to them. Unfortunately James was better at granting charters than at winning wars, and the Royal College foundered with him without ever enrolling a student.

The Butlers had the idea of handing over Kilkenny Castle and grounds as the site for a university at Kilkenny (before WIT or Carlow IT or any of the IOTs existed, or indeed DCU or UL, and when NUIM was still SPCM and primarily a seminary). The offer wasn't taken up; never very clear why, but I suspect nervousness in official circles at a time when money was scarce and when a far smaller proportion of the population attended university was at least a major part of it. In the end, the Castle was handed over to the city for a nominal sum, and taken into care by the OPW, and while there is no doubt that it has been a tremendous asset to the city ever since, one has to wonder what Kilkenny would be like now if the relevant people had enough courage in the 40s and 50s.

The allocation of the locations for the RTCs, now IoTs, might be seen as another lost opportunity in this respect. Waterford had a very good case given that it was the larger centre of population. With Waterford chosen, Carlow then was pretty much halfway between Waterford and Dublin. There are many who would argue however (and many who are not from Kilkenny, and don't have a bias) that Kilkenny as a central site for the south-east would have made far more sense geographically, and that Kilkenny failed to fight its corner hard enough, a mistake definitely not made by its competitors.

Now? I don't think you need worry about a few thousand pissed-up students tbh. The move in government policy and HEA policy is towards amalgamation and rationalization. I suspect the last thing they want is another new college in Kilkenny doing the same old courses in business and engineering and splitting numbers in Waterford and Carlow and elsewhere still further, and reducing economies of scale.

That's not to say that there couldn't be opportunities in Kilkenny ... both WIT and NUIM already have outreach projects in Kilkenny, the former mainly concerned with research and the latter with teaching, mainly adult education / part-time courses but this year for the first time they are taking full-time students for first year of their arts degree as a pilot project, with students completing second and third year on the main campus in Maynooth. If you think about it, that's an opportunity for local families to make very significant savings in these recessionary times; the USI estimate that the cost of accommodation / travel etc. for a student who has to study away from home is in the order of 4 - 5,000 euro p.a.

Any move towards the establishment of a University of the South-East might also have benefits for Kilkenny; I'm sure Phil Hogan would hope so anyway, he could do with some good press!

But a new, large college or campus mirroring and repeating existing provision elsewhere? That's goes against all policy and seems unlikely.

Far better to look for opportunities to do different things, and things which build on the existing strengths of Kilkenny. To me, a Centre or Institute for Mediaeval Studies with links with universities here, in the US and on the continent might be one of those. A place where researchers, or postgraduate or even undergraduate students, might come to study for a semester or a year. Kilkenny has such a rich history and archaeology in this respect, and a surviving archaeology more importantly, and is a perfect venue for such a project.

Given that, and with the Heritage Council located here, heritage tourism and general heritage management might be another appropriate focus in Kilkenny. Traditional and modern crafts is another, and one which the Crafts Council are working hard to foster even now.

And all of these things feed into heritage tourism, which is already very important for tourism and the economy in Kilkenny and in Ireland, and I suspect will become even more important. Let's face it: Ireland isn't exactly a reliable venue for sun holidays. We need to concentrate on selling points which are uniquely ours in order to fill all those hotels built during the Diseased Celtic Tiger! :pac:

Which kinda brings us back round to our starting point, and why it's so important to be careful with all planning and development in terms of Kilkenny's historic built environment. These decisions aren't just for tomorrow or next year, they will impact for generations.

foxcoverteddy

Bloody hell what a fantastic post, Sir, we have now a blueprint for the future, if those we have put in charge have the guts and determination to make Kilkenny great.
You make mention of our "Phil" remember he is only an employee of the people and as such should bow to the peoples demands.
Nevertheless I am sure he and other's would relish a University in Kilkenny, one has only to visit Oxford or Cambridge both kind of medieval cities to see how vibrant an influx of students has achieved.
I really think that we should be running a thread based on your blueprint, a University for Kilkenny, everyone would be set to gain.
Well done and from me truly thankful there are such people reading the Boards, all we have to do is to make sure the idea does not die before it is born.
Foxy

Rantan

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Bloody hell what a fantastic post, Sir, we have now a blueprint for the future, if those we have put in charge have the guts and determination to make Kilkenny great.
You make mention of our "Phil" remember he is only an employee of the people and as such should bow to the peoples demands.
Nevertheless I am sure he and other's would relish a University in Kilkenny, one has only to visit Oxford or Cambridge both kind of medieval cities to see how vibrant an influx of students has achieved.
I really think that we should be running a thread based on your blueprint, a University for Kilkenny, everyone would be set to gain.
Well done and from me truly thankful there are such people reading the Boards, all we have to do is to make sure the idea does not die before it is born.
Foxy

+1 a post I enjoyed reading for all the right reasons!!

Doff

Surely a University/College in Kilkenny would be more ideally placed at the old Canices Hospital? Right next to the ringroad and a short stroll into town (Would also attract more people to MacDonagh). Plus it would save on building costs. Be interesting to see what goes in the Cattle Mart mind.

Rantan

Doff wrote: »

Surely a University/College in Kilkenny would be more ideally placed at the old Canices Hospital? Right next to the ringroad and a short stroll into town (Would also attract more people to MacDonagh). Plus it would save on building costs. Be interesting to see what goes in the Cattle Mart mind.

good site alright... I would imagine you would need to do a huge amount of work to the buliding to bring it up to code along with extra buildings..and also somewhere else to house the unfortunates who inhabitat it...and.. its pretty grim...I wouldnt want to go to "study" there myself TBH...I went to school in kierans which is a similar - even a bit nicer buiding - and that left mental scars!!

Dozen Wicked Words

Rantan wrote: »

good site alright... I would imagine you would need to do a huge amount of work to the buliding to bring it up to code along with extra buildings..and also somewhere else to house the unfortunates who inhabitat it...and.. its pretty grim...I wouldnt want to go to "study" there myself TBH...I went to school in kierans which is a similar - even a bit nicer buiding - and that left mental scars!!

Don't think there are many (if any) inpatients still there, still has a busy outpatients department though. The main building is a horrible place, St Lukes still do training there but feels a very empty, oppressive building every time I have been in it.

redtelephone

randylonghorn wrote: »

The allocation of the locations for the RTCs, now IoTs, might be seen as another lost opportunity in this respect. Waterford had a very good case given that it was the larger centre of population. With Waterford chosen, Carlow then was pretty much halfway between Waterford and Dublin. There are many who would argue however (and many who are not from Kilkenny, and don't have a bias) that Kilkenny as a central site for the south-east would have made far more sense geographically, and that Kilkenny failed to fight its corner hard enough, a mistake definitely not made by its competitors.

Great post randylonghorn, the only thing I'd like to add is in regard to the choice of RTCs as they were back then. I think that Carlow was chosen over Kilkenny because the scale of the Carlow Central Technical School was beyond anything else in the region at the time. In the late 1960s it had well over 1,000 students in engineering and automotive and even had a B Sc. external London programme in science. It seems that while Kilkenny pushed hard, Carlow was eventually chosen (Sugar Factory apprentices were a help), and it was only afterwards that Waterford got its RTC. So if Kilkenny had been successful back then, it's probable that neither Waterford or Carlow would have had an RTC.

foxcoverteddy

Not my fault; but our Phil has given the word that the CAS is necessary, he obviously takes very little notice of what the people who put him there want.
Of course much depends on what is being developed on the mart site as to whether or not we need a CAS at all.
Can we pin point someone who is likely to make out of the project? Can we guarantee transparency?
Lets hope so.

Captain Havoc

I think it's fairly transparent, they're going to knock those houses and build a bridge. It's not all bad, it may help the mart site to develop and what ever goes into the brewery site will have better access, hopefully it will also provide better pedestrian and cycling access into the city. The argument that it will divide the city is nonsense. My problem with the development is that it's bringing traffic into the city and doesn't add any new way to get out of the city. The traffic will end up on the Comer road any way, whether they take Greensbridge or the new bridge, it's effectively just moving Greensbridge. Holding back and building a new bridge between Comer and Freshford roads makes far more sense as it would help keep traffic out from the city, it would also mean HGVs that need to access the city would not have to cross Greensbridge or John's bridge. Traffic would also have better options to exit the city. The emphasis needs to be on getting traffic in and out of the city, not through it.

foxcoverteddy

I wish someone would explain to the council before it is too late, if we can get a University on the Brewery site we will need decent access in and out.
Well said, foxy

S28382

So when are the works due to start?

nuttz

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I think it's fairly transparent, they're going to knock those houses and build a bridge. It's not all bad, it may help the mart site to develop and what ever goes into the brewery site will have better access, hopefully it will also provide better pedestrian and cycling access into the city. The argument that it will divide the city is nonsense. My problem with the development is that it's bringing traffic into the city and doesn't add any new way to get out of the city. The traffic will end up on the Comer road any way, whether they take Greensbridge or the new bridge, it's effectively just moving Greensbridge. Holding back and building a new bridge between Comer and Freshford roads makes far more sense as it would help keep traffic out from the city, it would also mean HGVs that need to access the city would not have to cross Greensbridge or John's bridge. Traffic would also have better options to exit the city. The emphasis needs to be on getting traffic in and out of the city, not through it.

I agree with you for the most part, where I differ is as follows: I still have doubts about the motives behind CAS, maybe there just needs to be more clarity/transparency as to who is going to benefit most from the Mart site and other developments on the route(before the bridge), etc.
I think the argument that it will split the city has some merit in my opinion, building a bridge to accommodate a greater volume of traffic on that route, essentially makes the area less friendly to pedestrians/cyclists, instead of taking HGVs out of the city by like you said completing even just the Comer to Freshford road section.

kk23

I very much doubt that the demolition Of the houses will proceed as smoothly as the council hopes , and havoc your dismissal of the assertion that the road won't split the city beggars belief. The council has motives that have not been fully explored and this particular story will run a bit further than anticipated.

road_high

I take Captain Havocs point, there is some merit in the scheme in so far as it is a new route for traffic and will open a few areas for development and allow some modernisation. The point for me though is that for the money spent, extending the ring road would add far more value to the city at this point and time and serve it far better.

Threadhead

This is well worth a watch:

foxcoverteddy

Yes Threadhead; I do believe what you are suggesting about the mart site, I personally think this was ear-marked from the beginning, all part of a grand scheme; but who will be the beneficiary.
If it was a level play field what the other poster's are saying holds a considerable amount of water, access to the brewery site, apparently still under discussion as to what will become of it.
One can understand both schools of thought regarding the splitting or not of the city, one has to admit access from the Freshford side of Kilkenny is abysmal, you can easily get snarled up in the Granges Road as the Freshford Road, building a bridge further out would do a lot to alleviate the situation, probably far cheaper than the current CAS.
Being a devious person I still think the project is not as straight forward as we are being led to believe, suddenly there is an indecent haste to get this project underway.
Again looking at the video Dean Street does nothing for the cultural aspect of the city St Canice's is marooned in a sea of concrete steel and tar, I wonder if there is a plan to move it brick or stone by stone to another site.
We wait with bated breath to see the outcome, he who trusts the tiger usually ends up as a meal.
Foxy

Rantan

Threadhead wrote: »

This is well worth a watch:

..god..thas the most obviousl objection and I hadnt even considered it - the view down the river will be destroyed....thats one of the worst aspects, yo ucant even begin to put a value on elements like that....

linny

Kilkenny has to move forward, and this is badly needed along with finishing the ring road, sooner its started the better

foxcoverteddy

Of course Kilkenny has to move forward; surely the heritage of the city should be preserved, isn't that what we sell to the tourists?
You can go and see modern glass and concrete buildings anywhere, is there no way that within the confines of a certain area no structural changes will be allowed, the new bridge though it is tucked away so no one really comments; is it in keeping with the overall style of the city, no, it looks like it has wings and is about to fly off, something like the Samuel Beckett in Dublin, honestly would that be in keeping with the rest of the city? It may well fit in with the plans for the mart site, how much do these things cost? Who would be the designer etc?
As someone said, this thread will probably run a lot longer than anticipated. There are many questions and very little information, I presume correct me, that all street parking in Vicar St and Dean St will have to go.
I think it is a case of watch this thread for more info.
Foxy

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

Kilkenny has to move forward, and this is badly needed along with finishing the ring road, sooner its started the better

Why is it badly needed?

foxcoverteddy

The Video shows us coming up to the new bridge but what happens after that, where does it get into the mart and out the other side, what about Padmore and Barnes?, presume the old bridge will remain so traffic can go down the Bleach Road and also Wolfe Tone St, is the Nore Bar safe?
Someone said it will effect the peace park, is that true.
Is' I presume there must be a map available? Can the roundabout on the Comer Road cope with the increase of traffic?