Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

catbear

nootroc wrote: »

. The CAS is not going to improve the situation imho.

I agree, CAS has more than a few vested interests.

nootroc

Looks like the powers that be have played their trump card -1,000 jobs at least. Now you can't be against that, can you?

Rantan

nootroc wrote: »

Looks like the powers that be have played their trump card -1,000 jobs at least. Now you can't be against that, can you?

had to laugh when I heard that - 1,000 jobs?? If they can pull that off - I'll take the sledge to the city walls, canices and Vicar street myself!!;)

catbear

nootroc wrote: »

Looks like the powers that be have played their trump card -1,000 jobs at least. Now you can't be against that, can you?

How are these jobs to be sustained? How many are jobs bridges that could be extended indefinitely? How many of this 1000 are just for the construction phase alone?

There's full of it and anyone who believes them only wishes to be deceived.

road_high

catbear wrote: »

How are these jobs to be sustained? How many are jobs bridges that could be extended indefinitely? How many of this 1000 are just for the construction phase alone?

There's full of it and anyone who believes them only wishes to be deceived.

A damn sight more than the do-nothing approach and leave the site to rot and decay and be of no value at all to the city.

catbear

road_high wrote: »

A damn sight more than the do-nothing approach and leave the site to rot and decay and be of no value at all to the city.

I'm against an unsustainable develop of the site. You may end up funding a redevelopment and the place then looking great but ultimately unused and the employment being only short term; politicians don't mind that as their priority is short term.

So now you have refurbished site left to rot and decay and we're all back to square one. I don't oppose the site being developed, just not with public funds.

A damn sight more than the do-nothing approach

Sounds like you're channelling Bertie Ahern there!

'Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something,'

..Bertie Ahern
New developments, like the Irish property bubble, cause more harm than good if they're entered into with only short term vision. Why should everyone else pay in the long for the short term ambitions of a few. Put your money where you're mouth is and stump up your own cash into a development corporation and then petition everyone else for the rest.

Failing to plan is planning to fail.

foxcoverteddy

I would suggest the consensus of opinion is that the people of Kilkenny want t6he ring road completed before the CAS. We held a march protest; that has not deterred the council from ploughing ahead.
So what do you do? What comes next, the people cannot afford legal cost's, with our money the council can.
There has to be a way forward, is there a way to see who will benefit financially from the CAS?
If you read "Catbears" earlier post's the subject is well covered; we must have sufficient brains to be able to bring this silliness to an end, who in the council is voting for and who is against?
We wait and see.

linny

anyone I know has no opinion on it or want to see it going a head, the thing of lets just keep saying stupid things like who will benefit from it is just getting silly now at this stage, the people will benefit from it

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

anyone I know has no opinion on it or want to see it going a head, the thing of lets just keep saying stupid things like who will benefit from it is just getting silly now at this stage, the people will benefit from it

How will the people benefit from it?

linny

Threadhead wrote: »

How will the people benefit from it?

ease of access to the city to the new brewery development and what ever ends up in the mart site, we cant live in the past we can only respect it, and these falling down old house's need to go

catbear

linny wrote: »

ease of access to the city to the new brewery development and what ever ends up in the mart site, we cant live in the past we can only respect it, and these falling down old house's need to go

It's obvious you've learned nothing from the last ten years. You must have a short attention span; it you can't learn from the past then you're doomed to repeat it.

If you put a substantial part of your own income into the development then you'd be providing more than vapid sentiments.

Threadhead

linny wrote: »

ease of access to the city to the new brewery development and what ever ends up in the mart site, we cant live in the past we can only respect it, and these falling down old house's need to go

I can walk, cycle and drive around the city quite comfortably as is. However, an extended ring road would be great for getting heavy duty traffic away from town.

Ease of access to the brewery site can be managed by the three entrances currently in place and if a fourth one is added off Vicar Street and those houses can be demolished, well so be it.

But we do not need that bridge. No one is calling for it and right now, nothing is scheduled to end up in the mart site. So why waste money on a bridge that goes nowhere? Right now, taking hypothetical mart sites out of the equation, what can that bridge offer the city that a completed ring road can't?

Rantan

linny wrote: »

ease of access to the city to the new brewery development and what ever ends up in the mart site, we cant live in the past we can only respect it, and these falling down old house's need to go

one point that gets overlooked in the "out with the old in with the new" arguement is that when is enough enough? In this case its a few poxy houses standing in the way of progress - solution - get rid...the end justify the means. (this arguement isnt just about the houses but anyway why does that little point matter).... In your opinion Linny wherre do you draw the line at removing something old in favour of something new? At what point would you say no?

What I mean is if we just allow everything to go because "its in the way" we end up with nothing...
a few houses and a few bits of old chimney here, a ringfort there....."that bit of old wall behind the pub..honestly..it just fell down oopss..sorry" or "its a 300 year old lime kiln in me garden..so what I dont need any lime thanks..I need some decking though...".....

pretty soon we'll have made enough exccusees to just get rid of the whole bloody lot....is that actaully what you want in the end?

...its not about living "in" the past its about living "with" the past..personally I feel sorry for anyone who cant make that distinction

linny

we have to grab life not just keep plodding along, old is good and great but sometimes it has to make way for the future, if that was the case we should of held onto the old mart buildings because in 100 years they would of been old would they draw tourists I think not, should the cinema in mac donagh junction been refused because an old rail plat form is there and is falling down, I think not, and not we are left with a pile of SxxT, but hey don't it look great,

catbear

I can think of more economic arguments against the CAS than the sentimentalists for all thing new can present for it.

The pro CAS are big on promises but short on detail. This isn't just about old bricks versus new, it's about what makes people visit and explore kilkenny, it's about what makes it unique.

It's about how it makes you feel. I don't think people will visit just to drive through the city landscape and they certainly will feel the CSA will truncate the cathedral quarter.

These anti tourist CSA proponents obviously favour short term interests over the long term sustainable development.

Rantan

linny wrote: »

we have to grab life not just keep plodding along, old is good and great but sometimes it has to make way for the future, if that was the case we should of held onto the old mart buildings because in 100 years they would of been old would they draw tourists I think not, should the cinema in mac donagh junction been refused because an old rail plat form is there and is falling down, I think not, and not we are left with a pile of SxxT, but hey don't it look great,

sorry I dont think you are adding anything to your arguement here. So because the cinema was refused permission we should just bulldoze the old platform??!! crazy talk,,,there are plenty of perfectly adequate sites in KK for a cinema that dont require the demolition of a protected structure..definitely an element of bertie ahernism in your argument! The old platform is a unique example of 19th centruy architecture that is very rare now, there are only a handful of those type of building left in ireland...why couldnt that have been refurbed and incorporated in to the development? typical devloper mentality type answer " ah sure look its falling down - its an eyesore" "it must be demolished" use a bit of imagination and blend the old with the new and you create something a bit unique. I dont consider being surrounded by sterile, souless, "devlopment" as "grabbing life". you keep repeating your mantra that somehow becasue people like me want to preserve old buildings we are somehow missing out on something! and are not living our lives..strange argument ...:p

In all fairness - most of MCd junction is a very good example of old/new working well..the plaza is an amazing space that is hard to find comparison.

holyhead

If the old platform refers to The Watergate Theatre it is imperative it is perserved. It is one of the few remaining examples of Art Deco in the country. Leave it alone please

redtelephone

Rantan wrote: »

Quote: I dont consider being surrounded by sterile, souless, "devlopment" as "grabbing life".

Talking of sterile, souless development, just have a look at page 27 of the 'Masterplan' for Abbey Creative Quarter and see if you can find the Abbey.

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Publications/Council_News/Brewery%20Site%20Presentation%20Kilkenny.pdf

Yes, it's there on the right, tucked away between loads of new glass and concrete boxes. My guess is that the monstrosity that is the new courthouse is a foretaste of the "development" of the Abbey Creative Quarter. This is new Kilkenny, the only problem is that it's stuck right in the middle of Old Kilkenny. The medieval city is fast disappearing.

Einhard

The court house extension is hardly a monstrosity. I happen to think it's quite a handsome building, and several tourists I had visiting with me over the summer thought similar. Honestly, it seems that some people wouldn't be happy unless every new building was built with wattle and daub! Glass and concrete are not the enemy people!!

As for the road, am I mistaken in believing that it's a single carriage road? As in one lane in each direction? If so, how on earth could it "cut off the cathedral" as some are claiming? Talk about sensationalism! Now, if those houses have genuine archaeological merit, then that's a different story. But otherwise, I think these claims about ripping the heart from the city is a tad hysterical.

linny

Einhard wrote: »

The court house extension is hardly a monstrosity. I happen to think it's quite a handsome building, and several tourists I had visiting with me over the summer thought similar. Honestly, it seems that some people wouldn't be happy unless every new building was built with wattle and daub! Glass and concrete are not the enemy people!!

As for the road, am I mistaken in believing that it's a single carriage road? As in one lane in each direction? If so, how on earth could it "cut off the cathedral" as some are claiming? Talk about sensationalism! Now, if those houses have genuine archaeological merit, then that's a different story. But otherwise, I think these claims about ripping the heart from the city is a tad hysterical.

well said

Mocadonna

Einhard wrote: »

The court house extension is hardly a monstrosity. I happen to think it's quite a handsome building, and several tourists I had visiting with me over the summer thought similar. Honestly, it seems that some people wouldn't be happy unless every new building was built with wattle and daub! Glass and concrete are not the enemy people!!

As for the road, am I mistaken in believing that it's a single carriage road? As in one lane in each direction? If so, how on earth could it "cut off the cathedral" as some are claiming? Talk about sensationalism! Now, if those houses have genuine archaeological merit, then that's a different story. But otherwise, I think these claims about ripping the heart from the city is a tad hysterical.

The courthouse extension might not be a monstrosity taken as a unique modern building, but it is when looked at in the context of the original courthouse, and the medieval character of the city. I know several tourists who said thought the opposite to you. They came over expecting to see "The most intact medieval town centre in Ireland" and left quite disappointed.

I think the main issue is not with the road, but with the new bridge (leading to nowhere) being built within a couple of hundred yards of 2 other bridges which would have a lot less traffic on them if the ring road is completed. Also, the only sensationalism I can see is the creation of 1000 jobs if this road and creative quarter are finished. Is it a coincidence this is announced just as the protest against the CAS picks up momentum? What areas are these jobs in? Have any multinationals expressed interest?

Captain Havoc

Mocadonna wrote: »

The courthouse extension might not be a monstrosity taken as a unique modern building, but it is when looked at in the context of the original courthouse, and the medieval character of the city. I know several tourists who said thought the opposite to you. They came over expecting to see "The most intact medieval town centre in Ireland" and left quite disappointed.

I think the main issue there is with a new bridge (leading to nowhere) is it being built within a couple of hundred yards of 2 other bridges which would have a lot less traffic on them of the ring road is completed. Also, the only sensationalism I can see is the creation of 1000 jobs if this road and creative quarter are finished. Is it a coincidence this is announced just as the protest against the CAS picks up momentum? What areas are these jobs in? Have any multinationals expressed interest?

I like the courthouse. I'm for the completion of the ring road to take traffic out of town. I've previously stated that the CAS won't split the town. No, I don't think the announcement of 1,000 jobs is coincidental at this point. It's a potential 1,000 jobs, as previously questioned, how many are in the construction? You do have to look at the indirect effect, if there are an extra 1,000 jobs in the centre it helps people like me to keep my job as hopefully more people would be coming to my place of work.

Mocadonna

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I like the courthouse. I'm for the completion of the ring road to take traffic out of town. I've previously stated that the CAS won't split the town. No, I don't think the announcement of 1,000 jobs is coincidental at this point. It's a potential 1,000 jobs, as previously questioned, how many are in the construction? You do have to look at the indirect effect, if there are an extra 1,000 jobs in the centre it helps people like me to keep my job as hopefully more people would be coming to my place of work.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the courthouse!! I don't think the CAS will split the town either (though I think the argument was about splitting the much vaunted 'medieval mile'), but you also have to question why the money is being spent on this rather than the ring road which is needed more.

Hopefully it is the case that more people spend money in the town, I don't think anyone opposing the CAS would be against this, but aside from construction which is a short term gain, it's hard to see this continuing beyond a couple of years... and then?

redtelephone

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I like the courthouse.

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catbear

There seems to be a lot of fans of brutalist architecture in these parts, the cult of new.

nootroc

Mocadonna wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree on the courthouse!! I don't think the CAS will split the town either (though I think the argument was about splitting the much vaunted 'medieval mile'), but you also have to question why the money is being spent on this rather than the ring road which is needed more.

Hopefully it is the case that more people spend money in the town, I don't think anyone opposing the CAS would be against this, but aside from construction which is a short term gain, it's hard to see this continuing beyond a couple of years... and then?

CENTRAL ACCESS means that more HGV's are going to come through the area whether they want to or not ( Freshord / St Luke's to Castlecomer ). Traffic will have to have precedence over pedestrians if the road is to succeed in its objective, otherwise it will be like High Street on a busy day.

Threadhead

The people heading up tourism in Kilkenny keep using places like Edinburgh and Siena as examples of what Kilkenny can be. What's essential to achieving that is getting traffic out of town. And that's the problem with the CAS. More trucks coming down the Kennyswell Road, more trucks coming through the city centre and then we're building another new bridge to take the battering that Greensbridge currently takes. It's madness.

I also think the Court House looks nice and I really hope that the Creative Quarter blends old and new quite effectively.

For an example of how Kilkenny can get things so wrong, look at the empty ugly brick monstrosity on the parade that used to be a bank. If you look at archive photos of that building, it was once a hotel built in the same style as the Hibernian. That style of building was considered old fashioned in the 60's and 70's and it was ripped apart and replaced by scores of brown brick. And it's still ugly. This isn't about old versus new or bricks and concrete, it's about knowing when we have a good thing and not destroying it.

kikel

Threadhead wrote: »

For an example of how Kilkenny can get things so wrong, look at the empty ugly brick monstrosity on the parade that used to be a bank. If you look at archive photos of that building, it was once a hotel built in the same style as the Hibernian. That style of building was considered old fashioned in the 60's and 70's and it was ripped apart and replaced by scores of brown brick. And it's still ugly. This isn't about old versus new or bricks and concrete, it's about knowing when we have a good thing and not destroying it.

Nail on head.

foxcoverteddy

In truth we are wasting an awful lot of time and energy trying to put in perspective the impact of the CAS on our city.
Either Kilkenny is a medieval city and as much as possible is preserved, not that is a lot, or it is just another dull and boring urban area?
The Edinburgh thing is a joke, Kilkenny has nothing to resemble Princes Street, the buildings in the main are bog standard with very little historic importance, the Brewery site might just as well be built as a glass and concrete edifice to satisfy a council that has done very little for the historic importance of Kilkenny.
You do not have to live in the past to build in a style of bygone years, just look at the continental towns and villages that two world wars decimated, they manage to attract millions of tourists who are carried away with designs that originate from the 18 and 19th century.
Do you hear of anyone raving about canary Wharf, go and look around the O2 centre, yes modern but absolute crap to look at.
Kilkenny is known as the medieval city, either it is or it isn't, by the looks of things we might just as well drop the title.
Foxy

Bowlardo

redtelephone wrote: »

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New courthouse really is a pile of ****e in fairness to it