Legal Internships; A new prerequisite ?

Podgerz

An interesting article in the Irish Times on

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/internships-increasingly-used-as-a-route-into-legal-profession-1.1405583



I must agree with Cathal on this; it is simply not an option for many students, myself included to spend a summer doing an unpaid internship.

What do ye think?

johnnyskeleton

Podgerz wrote: »

An interesting article in the Irish Times on

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/internships-increasingly-used-as-a-route-into-legal-profession-1.1405583



I must agree with Cathal on this; it is simply not an option for many students, myself included to spend a summer doing an unpaid internship.

What do ye think?

Relatively, doing 3 months in the summer for no pay/small pay is nothing compared to devilling or to an unpaid apprenticeship. If that internship leads to an apprenticeship with a large firm then the well paid apprenticeship more than makes up for 3 months of unpaid work.

It also has to be put in context of a 3/4 year law degree. So complaining about 3 months unpaid when there is an average of 6-7 years unpaid for a lot of lawyers is a bit short sighted.

The article is laced with suggestion that the legal profession is a closed shop, from the nonsense about traditionally the way to get a job as a lawyer was in your fathers firm, to the "I can't afford to work unpaid for 3 months in a boring office, but I can afford to do a year in China", all sounds contrived to me. If you are from a disadvantaged background, all professions trades and jobs are difficult to get into. Equally, though, if you can stay with your folks and/or work part time then it is not insurmountable. The world does not owe you a living in your choice of jobs after all.

Grolschevik

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

"I can't afford to work unpaid for 3 months in a boring office, but I can afford to do a year in China",

Good point...

working for four weeks and receiving no remuneration.

They provide valuable experience, of course, but for him an unpaid position is “simply not an option”. So he is off to China for a year, to teach English and save some money

The return flights to China alone would probably be more than those four weeks' wages (I stand to be corrected on this!).

LowKeyReturn

There are about a hundred different ways you can gain legal experience during term time through work experience/internships. Some people have amazingly good CVs through just taking what's there and asking for things.

Every barrister I have met (only about 20 or so) has been nothing but helpful and generous with their advice and time. This closed shop thing does have some merit, but as far as closed shops go it's fairly easily accessed.

If you can't do a full time law degree and do a bit of work in a solicitors office during you're free time there is something wrong with the way you are studying.

johnnyskeleton

Grolschevik wrote: »

Good point...



The return flights to China alone would probably be more than those four weeks' wages (I stand to be corrected on this!).

About a grand. Plus, in reality, very few people who do a TEFL year abroad earn more money than they spend. Especially in China where teacher wages are relatively modest and rents (at an ex pat standard, I assume this guy isn't going to live in a Hu-tong) are not cheap. What little money he makes on top of his day to day living might just about cover his flights there and back, but not a whole pile more, and most people will spend a few months travelling around China afterwards.

A fantastic experience, no doubt, but working a 3 month unpaid apprenticeship plus 9 months in McDonalds staying in Ireland and saving up, would probably be a better option financially.

johnnyskeleton

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

This closed shop thing does have some merit, but as far as closed shops go it's fairly easily accessed.

I dunno. People see what they want to see, perhaps that blinds me to some instances where someone is given an opportunity that, but for their parent/partner/friend who is an established lawyer, they would not ordinarily get. But genuine examples of same are relatively few and far between. What is also ignored are the numbers of people who are well connected entering the profession yet they do not rely on those connections at all, on the basis that they want to make their own way.

Podgerz

Em I would have to say comparing a the cost of flights with the cost of the internship isnt realistic. You cant realistically take a month off work and go back after it, you are effectively making yourself redundant. I would jump at a chance of a mcdonalds job but if i had one i couldnt take a month off and look for the job back again, no employer would allow this

valleyoftheunos

I would say that Internships have been an essential part of getting a job in the legal sector for some time. Look at the milk round and Training Contract threads here, without decent work experience on your CV you haven't a hope of getting ahead.

Grolschevik

Podgerz wrote: »

Em I would have to say comparing a the cost of flights with the cost of the internship isnt realistic. You cant realistically take a month off work and go back after it, you are effectively making yourself redundant. I would jump at a chance of a mcdonalds job but if i had one i couldnt take a month off and look for the job back again, no employer would allow this

Thought we were talking about a student on his/her summer break?

Podgerz

Grolschevik wrote: »

Thought we were talking about a student on his/her summer break?

You dont think students have jobs during the year?

Grolschevik

Podgerz wrote: »

You dont think students have jobs during the year?

Of course they do, and I also see unpaid internships as generally exploitative, for the record.

But the point being made by others is that they are becoming the norm, and that an ambitious student might better further his/her career by taking one than not.

When I was an undergrad, I delivered pizzas in the evening. That would be compatible with an internship.

Podgerz

Grolschevik wrote: »

Of course they do, and I also see unpaid internships as generally exploitative, for the record.

But the point being made by others is that they are becoming the norm, and that an ambitious student might better further his/her career by taking one than not.

When I was an undergrad, I delivered pizzas in the evening. That would be compatible with an internship.

And the students real life problem is surviving in Dublin for 4 weeks without pay. Those from outside dublin will not be able to most likely. Thats the real life problem, no matter how ambiious you are , unless it is paid, or the person lives in dublin, poor students wont be able to go for one

NoQuarter

Johnny's point still stands though; how can they go through college for 9 months a year not getting paid and not go that other 4 weeks.

The issue is clearly overplayed. Sure if they want to become Barristers they are going to be unpaid for 2 years or unpaid during PPC in Blackhall in a lot of cases, unless they bank on getting into the top 10 or so.

He is in the wrong profession to be complaining about an unpaid stint, that is for sure.

I do take the point about people outside Dublin though, it does seem more difficult for them.

Podgerz

NoQuarter wrote: »

Johnny's point still stands though; how can they go through college for 9 months a year not getting paid and not go that other 4 weeks.

He is in the wrong profession to be complaining about an unpaid stint, that is for sure.

I do take the point about people outside Dublin though, it does seem more difficult for them.

The poorest people do get college grants and as i have said before in order to further a career a masters/fe-1s is needed. Therefore money is needed. If that is the case, taking a month off is out of the question as this would result in loosing a job I have held for the entire year during college also , resulting in not being able to afford a masters.

I am also tempted to go abroad to earn more money, the standard of liivng in these countries are very low in comparative terms and can be easier to save money for a masters

NoQuarter

Podgerz wrote: »

The poorest people do get college grants and as i have said before in order to further a career a masters/fe-1s is needed. Therefore money is needed. If that is the case, taking a month off is out of the question as this would result in loosing a job I have held for the entire year during college also , resulting in not being able to afford a masters.

I am also tempted to go abroad to earn more money, the standard of liivng in these countries are very low in comparative terms and can be easier to save money for a masters

Well the grants point doesn't really matter because it's not a weekly amount they are paid, its just a lump sum, so I dont get that point.

For me, and this might not be the case with others, I would give up a job for an internship if I thought something would come of it. So losing a job that gets me by wouldnt be an issue, its a sacrifice that has to be made. There has to be sacrifices for most of us.

johnnyskeleton

Podgerz wrote: »

And the students real life problem is surviving in Dublin for 4 weeks without pay. Those from outside dublin will not be able to most likely. Thats the real life problem, no matter how ambiious you are , unless it is paid, or the person lives in dublin, poor students wont be able to go for one

Doesn't have to be in Dublin. Arguably the ones in dublin, cork Galway etc (where the top 5 firms and medium sized firms are based) are more likely to offer paid internships.

But even in dublin for an unpaid internship, it might be worth taking a loan, working 80 hour shifts etc to get the benefit of the internship. It is probably better, from a career point of view, than studying hard and getting top marks.

Obviously no one is saying that working part time through college, full time during the summer, living in the cheapest accomodation and having a poor level of food and lifestyle isn't difficult, and some people seem to breeze through life unaware that their butler needs money to pay for their phesant and cheval blanc, but the trick is to realise that most people (on this board and in life) fall into the former category rather than the latter.

Podgerz

NoQuarter wrote: »

Well the grants point doesn't really matter because it's not a weekly amount they are paid, its just a lump sum, so I dont get that point.

For me, and this might not be the case with others, I would give up a job for an internship if I thought something would come of it. So losing a job that gets me by wouldnt be an issue, its a sacrifice that has to be made. There has to be sacrifices for most of us.

The fact is that the lump sum is keeping them in college for the college term, possibly alongside a part time job. The fact they will have to go unpaid for an entire summer in exchange for a 4 week internship will seriously put them at a disadvantage compared to those who do not have to work. His point was that poor people can not take advantage of these opportunities compared to those well ff and are at a serious disadvantage as this sacrifice, which mightnt seem "an issue" for you, is a major serious issue for those people who cant afford to do so

NoQuarter

I dont buy it. If the lump sum can get them through 9 months, it can be budgeted slightly more strictly to get them through another 4 weeks.

Besides, you havent addressed my other point about actually beginning practice. This lad complaining about not being able to afford an internship is going to get a smack of reality in this profession when he goes to practice, be it as a solicitor or a barrister.

You'll have to give up your job then too.

Grand if you get into the top firms but otherwise, you are going to be in as much trouble as the rest of us.

The more I think about it, complaining about not having the money to last 4 weeks without getting paid is farcical in this profession.

LowKeyReturn

There is absolutely no issue with working one day a week in a solicitors firm, working twenty hours a week part time and doing a full time law degree. Plenty of people do this and more so I'm afraid I've very little sympathy.

PeterTwo

Also, it must be noted that all of the big commercial firms pay their summer interns extremely well, far more than you would earn working full time in a retail store/fast-food restaurant for the summer.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Considering that I know people who did 12 month internships unpaid and worked part time at the weekends I see no problems with a few weeks unpaid.

I'm lucky that my current internship is paid but even still I'm working casual hours in other jobs to keep those jobs and for extra savings so tbh I have very little sympathy for some of the excuses given here.

Work experience is the best way to get a job these days and it's fairly obvious why - the employers can see first hand whether you're worth employing as a trainee plus other places can see that you've worked before and that you have an idea of the working world. I don't really understand why anyone would refuse an opportunity like that. More and more firms are looking to their summer internships and college work placements for the bulk of their trainee recruitment and having done 17 months work of interning, I can totally understand why.

hfallada

Internships are extremely common in America as the firm may want to see whether you are worth employing. Particular in 3rd year of college. I would do an internship to get a well paid job instead of being a cashier earning 8.65 in a corner shop.

If you arent prepared to do 3 months of not the most thrilling work and yet you probably will have some extremely boring cases in the future. Then maybe being a solicitor is not for you