Breast milk

ronjo

Thanks for that Iguana.

I have another question. Yesterday I took some of the donated milk from the freezer but we didn't end up using it. I put it back in the freezer again instead of the fridge. Is it ok to use it? Ie it will have defrosted twice?

Hobbitfeet

No I wouldn't use it, not recommended to refreeze breastmilk. Also I mentioned before about breastfeeding support, La Leche League is an international organisation so there is probably a group near you, just have a google and I'm sure you'll find it.

My opinion on why most don't bf in Ireland is because I think a lot of people don't believe that there is any real difference between formula and bm. Also it's not something you see in public very often, until its common place to see mothers breastfeeding everywhere then I think our rates will stay low

liliq

ronjo wrote: »

Thanks for that Iguana.

I have another question. Yesterday I took some of the donated milk from the freezer but we didn't end up using it. I put it back in the freezer again instead of the fridge. Is it ok to use it? Ie it will have defrosted twice?

Kellymom.com has excellent guides on milk storage, and how long it's suitable to freeze/ refrigerate/ keep at room temperature and how long from thawing to use etc.

wolfpawnat

Tried BF-ing no1, after 6 weeks of expressing, I gave in to formula. My breasts dried up and it is one of the only times I felt I failed as a mother and as a woman. I am now pregnant with no.2 and am going to do everything in my power to try again. I am trying to find support groups and everything to make my life easier, if I needed donor milk, as long as the woman is healthy, then yes please. If I find myself with surplus this time and fitting of the criteria, I would donate in an instant.

Ms2011

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Tried BF-ing no1, after 6 weeks of expressing, I gave in to formula. My breasts dried up and it is one of the only times I felt I failed as a mother and as a woman.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here as to why breast feeding mother's 'just stating the facts' of breast feeding hit such a nerve with bottle feeding mothers.
Unless you live under a rock most women know the benefits of breast feeding, alot try & fail ( or this is how it feels) to breast feed. Then to be constantly told what 'muck' formula is just feels like another thing to feel guilty about.
If breast feeding mothers think they have it bad from public opinion they should try sitting on the other side of the fence where you can't even see a formula ad on TV without being told breast is best & it can be a little upsetting, no one likes to think they are not giving their child the v.best.
Anyway if I'm lucky enough to get pregnant again I would love to breast feed but won't be putting the pressure to do it on myself like I did last time, I would also use donor milk if it were readily available.

Hobbitfeet

I think it's really important to go to some of the group meetings before the baby comes. Can be so overwhelming in the early days and then to get the time or courage to go into a metting can be tough. But if you've been before and have met the women it's easier to ask for help after, that's what I found anyway.
Try not to worry about it, there is lots of help and support out there

wolfpawnat

Ms2011 wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head here as to why breast feeding mother's 'just stating the facts' of breast feeding hit such a nerve with bottle feeding mothers.
Unless you live under a rock most women know the benefits of breast feeding, alot try & fail ( or this is how it feels) to breast feed. Then to be constantly told what 'muck' formula is just feels like another thing to feel guilty about.
If breast feeding mothers think they have it bad from public opinion they should try sitting on the other side of the fence where you can't even see a formula ad on TV without being told breast is best & it can be a little upsetting, no one likes to think they are not giving their child the v.best.
Anyway if I'm lucky enough to get pregnant again I would love to breast feed but won't be putting the pressure to do it on myself like I did last time, I would also use donor milk if it were readily available.

You are told over and over that it is what we are made for, it is the most natural thing on this earth, it's easy, and then for reasons beyond your control you fail. And it is one hell of a kick in the teeth.

Most Irish women don't try, so they don't feel the guilt. And that's their choice. I don't think anyone should ever look down on another's choice. Some have to get back to work ASAP if they are self-employed, some have large families and haven't the time, some can't produce enough milk, and some just don't want to. It is almost taboo to breast feed here, my MIL is going on about it and the baby isn't even born. "why would you bother? waste of time, sure no one else can feed it then" She is badgering me NOT to BF. I dunno I am going to try and now that I know a support network exists I will try that, but you can only try. I won't be as quick to beat myself up this time if I can't.

meeeeh

I got the pregnancy pack in the hospital. I think there were about five different brouchures which had info on breastfeeding. In all of them it was exactly the same stuff written, I'm guessing copied from the same source. Somebody in HSE obviously decided they have nothing better to do but writte another brouchure. I wouldn't mind if they were actually effective but they are only telling women who don't breast feed how they are inadequate. The numbers of breast feeding women increased in Ireland however stats for last ten years show it's mostly due to foreigners moving in. One would think that after years and years they would figure out that treating women like idiots doesn't work.

I breast fed for six months both of my kids. Probably due to my cultural bacground I didn't even consider not to. After that they were on formula because it suited me. Did I feel guilty and miss it? Yes. Did I feel guilty enough to try to breast feed while working? No. I just wish people would have a bit more relaxed approach to everything. There is a middle ground between the breast feeding jihad and formula obsession in this country. And maybe less smug approach would work better.

As for milk bank I probably wouldn't use it because it is a lot less hassle to go to a supermarket and buy a carton. Shoot me!

/rant off

wolfpawnat

I find that they are all about the literature, but when I was in the ward trying to feed my baby, all I got was "relax" and a midwife pinching my nipples and trying to ram it into the baby's mouth. Hardly the most successful way to manage it!

iguana

pwurple wrote: »

Oh jesus not this again. Mindless off topic JimCorr-like rant above.

You know that it's the American Dental Association, who fully support water fluoridation otherwise, who recommend not using fluoridated water for infant formulas, right? Not Jim Corr.

“Infants who are only fed powdered and liquid concentrate formulas mixed with optimally fluoridated water (0.7 to 1.2 ppm) are likely to exceed a fluoride intake level established by the Institute of Medicine designed to reduce the risk of moderate to severe enamel fluorosis [brown stained and/or pitted teeth],” ADA February 2, 2010.

pwurple wrote: »

Breastfeeding mothers also drink tap water, and breasts also have bacteria on them. It's not a bad thing. What 'deadly bacteria' are you on about? Wait, don't even bother, the response will be the usual conspiracy theory nonsense.

There is no requirement for formula to be sterile and it has been known to be contaminated with Cronobacter sakazakii (formerly known as Enterobacter sakazakii), more rarely, Salmonella,* Enterobacteriaceae and Acinetobacter** on enough confirmed occasions to be quite worrying and for the companies to be legally required to advise very strict preparation guidelines. Breastmilk on the other hand is actually anti-bacterial and kills many types of bacteria it comes in contact with. For example, studies show that breastmilk that was purposely infected with E coli killed the bacterium.

*That's from the NHS, the CDC and **Unicef, by the way, who I think we can all agree aren't known for trolling conspiracy theories about the place.

iguana

Ms2011 wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head here as to why breast feeding mother's 'just stating the facts' of breast feeding hit such a nerve with bottle feeding mothers.
Unless you live under a rock most women know the benefits of breast feeding, alot try & fail ( or this is how it feels) to breast feed. Then to be constantly told what 'muck' formula is just feels like another thing to feel guilty about.
If breast feeding mothers think they have it bad from public opinion they should try sitting on the other side of the fence where you can't even see a formula ad on TV without being told breast is best & it can be a little upsetting, no one likes to think they are not giving their child the v.best.

The thing is though that that is true about so much of life. The fact is that it's better for both the mother and baby if the mother has a natural vaginal birth. Skin to skin contact in the first hour of life is of huge benefit to the baby. Allowing the cord to stop pulsing before it is cut greatly reduces the baby's risk of anaemia. Pethidine, epidural, c-sections etc all have drawbacks and can cause lasting complications. I was completely determined to have a natural, waterbirth, the availability of which in Wales was a major deciding factor for my husband and I when he was offered a contract there that coincided with my last trimester. There was no way I was ever, ever having an epidural.

I ended up after 65 hours of labour where with contractions coming a minute on - a minute off yet I wasn't dilating needing an epidural and oxytocin. After 80 hours of labour, the last three of which were 2nd stage, I needed a spinal block and a c-section. I didn't get to hold my son for an hour after he was born, his cord was cut straight away. I know the way he was born was not of the best benefit to him. I'm aware that he has certain increased health risks because of it. That does make me feel sad and disappointed in myself. I often wonder if I could have done something differently would I have been able to have a natural birth and ensured a better start for my son. But if someone states the fact that natural births are superior, I just accept that. It's just the truth. It might make me feel guilty, it certainly brings my sadness about it to the surface, but it's not a dig and it wouldn't be right if anyone ever felt they should avoid being truthful or stating facts that might educate those who don't know and benefit future babies because I couldn't give my son those same benefits.

Hobbitfeet

pwurple wrote: »

Oh jesus not this again. Mindless off topic JimCorr-like rant above. What has flouride got to do with bacteria? They are nothing to do with eachother.

Bacteria is removed by sterilisation. Flouride and bacteria are not linked in any way.

Breastfeeding mothers also drink tap water, and breasts also have bacteria on them. It's not a bad thing. What 'deadly bacteria' are you on about? Wait, don't even bother, the response will be the usual conspiracy theory nonsense.

Pwurple you have totally twisted my words there. I did not say that fluoride had anything to do with bacteria, I said these were too concerns I had.
It is recommended that non fluordated water be used for formula, it is fact that formula is not sterile and that is why there is strict prep guidelines, in 2008 in china 300,000 babies became ill, 54,000 were hospitalised and 6 died from contaminated forumla. . E. coli and criptosproidium are the bacteria contamination i was taking about, both of these are becoming more common and boil water notices are issued regularly, especially in the area I live. Both can cause severe gastrointestinal infections and are even more serious in infants. There is no conspiracy.

Ms2011

Tbh Iguana 'failing' at having a natural birth & 'failing' at breastfeeding aren't really the same. I've had a similar birth to you & yes I would have loved to have gone naturally but I have a c'eat la vie attutude to the section as it was to save my son.
However breastfeeding is often given up voluntarily (often through alot of hardship) & because the mother's tiredness, inexperience, other committments etc. dictates this rather than the mother's wanting to give it up it often results in alot of guilt, guilt that often never goes away.
Also mostly breastfeeding cannot be dicussed without in the same breath putting formula down adding to a mother's inadequate feelings.

As for formula not being sterilised, is that not the reason it's made with boiled water, to ensure the formula is sterilised???
So if the bottle is sterilised, the water is boiled & the formula is then sterilised with boiled water, how big is the risk of bacteria being present by the time a baby drinks the formula??
Is there any numbers of how many children have been made sick in Ireland by formula in contrast to the overall numbers being fed formula??

liliq

Ms2011 wrote: »

Tbh Iguana 'failing' at having a natural birth & 'failing' at breastfeeding aren't really the same. I've had a similar birth to you & yes I would have loved to have gone naturally but I have a c'eat la vie attutude to the section as it was to save my son.
However breastfeeding is often given up voluntarily (often through alot of hardship) & because the mother's tiredness, inexperience, other committments etc. dictates this rather than the mother's wanting to give it up it often results in alot of guilt, guilt that often never goes away.
Also mostly breastfeeding cannot be dicussed without in the same breath putting formula down adding to a mother's inadequate feelings.

As for formula not being sterilised, is that not the reason it's made with boiled water, to ensure the formula is sterilised???
So if the bottle is sterilised, the water is boiled & the formula is then sterilised with boiled water, how big is the risk of bacteria being present by the time a baby drinks the formula??
Is there any numbers of how many children have been made sick in Ireland by formula in contrast to the overall numbers being fed formula??

I'm on my phone so keeping it brief... In a way the c section and Breastfeeding or not are similar. A lot of mums don't know because they're simply not told about the potential lasting risks associated with interventions in birth, and they often don't have true support in intervention free births.
The same with breastfeeding, usually women don't 'fail' at breastfeeding, but they don't receive the support they need and deserve to keep it up. Yes, Breastfeeding is natural, that does not mean its easy. Especially when mums aren't used to seeing other mums nursing, or hearing other mums talk about normal breastfeeding challenges.

The thing about formula not being sterilised is that there's only a certain amount of bcteria that boiling water can kill. To truly sterilise it would mean keeping it at higher temperatures for longer, which would kill the nutrients, denature the proteins etc. so there's a definite risk involved.

taz70

Ms2011 wrote: »

As for formula not being sterilised, is that not the reason it's made with boiled water, to ensure the formula is sterilised???
So if the bottle is sterilised, the water is boiled & the formula is then sterilised with boiled water, how big is the risk of bacteria being present by the time a baby drinks the formula??

In theory, yes, but most people do not make up bottles to the HSE's or even the manufacturers' specifications. Making bottles ahead of time, making them on cold water then heating them, making them with hot water from a thermos, storing them on the counter etc etc are all regular practices that mean the formula is either not sterilised in the first place or is potentially recontaminated after it has been made. You just need to read a parenting website with the "ah sure it'll be fine" attitude to making up bottles.

You can add to the list of concerns the incredible number of preservatives, neurotoxins and industrial chemicals used in the production of formula to reasons why many people avoid it, and whilst health effects might not be immediately obvious, there are risks such as SIDS that are associated with infant formula.

Ms2011

liliq wrote: »

I'm on my phone so keeping it brief... In a way the c section and Breastfeeding or not are similar. A lot of mums don't know because they're simply not told about the potential lasting risks associated with interventions in birth, and they often don't have true support in intervention free births.
The same with breastfeeding, usually women don't 'fail' at breastfeeding, but they don't receive the support they need and deserve to keep it up. Yes, Breastfeeding is natural, that does not mean its easy. Especially when mums aren't used to seeing other mums nursing, or hearing other mums talk about normal breastfeeding challenges.

The thing about formula not being sterilised is that there's only a certain amount of bcteria that boiling water can kill. To truly sterilise it would mean keeping it at higher temperatures for longer, which would kill the nutrients, denature the proteins etc. so there's a definite risk involved.

I've had both a section & been unable to breast feed & I can tell you from first hand experience that the guilt loaded on you for not breastfeeding is nowhere near the same as for not having a natural birth, there is no comparison as far as I'm concerned.

Can you provide any links to the numbers of babies made sick from incorrectly made formula, I've been looking & all I can find is that the risk exsists but I can't find any stats on it actually happening.

Ms2011

taz70 wrote: »

and whilst health effects might not be immediately obvious, there are risks such as SIDS that are associated with infant formula.

I think this is hugely misinformative, the reason SIDS is lower in breastfed babies is largely to do with the fact that their mothers' tend also to be non-smokers & well educated rather than the breastmilk itself.

Das Kitty

Also... The WHO is for the entire world, and water quality is incredibly poor in the majority of countries.

I'm the same as you Ms2011. Gave up breastfeeding after making a martyr of myself for it (yay permanent scarring). I had the group before the birth, I had the breastfeeding consultants, I had the supply, I had a perfectly healthy baby with no tongue tie. It took me a long time to realise that breastfeeding him was making me hate the sight if him and contributing to my depression (not PND, just the regular variety).

Once I came to terms with giving up (long after I had) I realised that he was better off with a mum who loved and wanted him with her than the husk of a person who was with him before.

That said, I'm going to give it a go again with this lil guy when he's born. I've got a contact who's up on the laid back method and I'll be meeting her in the next month or two. I'm not going to make a mess of myself like I did last time though.

taz70

Ms2011 wrote: »

I think this is hugely misinformative, the reason SIDS is lower in breastfed babies is largely to do with the fact that their mothers' tend also to be non-smokers & well educated rather than the breastmilk itself.

No, I think your post is hugely misinformative.

Those attributes may be associated, but artificial milk itself increases the risk of SIDS. It may be an uncomfortable fact, and sadly it's not widely promoted by formula manufacturers, but it is established.

There are a number of reasons why, but one is that formula itself is harder to digest, making babies sleep more deeply and unable to rouse themselves in the event of a critical respiratory incident.

It makes me very sad that in order to find the holy grail of babies sleeping through the night, that heavier and heavier formulas are used to fill their guts and keep them asleep. If babies wake, perhaps there's a reason for it rather than an inconvenience for us.

But at any rate, the link is there. I know that the language is usually "breastfeeding lowers the risk of SIDS", but if we consider breastfeeding to be the default position for humans, then artificial milk thus increases the risk of SIDS.

taz70

Ms2011 wrote: »

Can you provide any links to the numbers of babies made sick from incorrectly made formula, I've been looking & all I can find is that the risk exsists but I can't find any stats on it actually happening.

There were some deaths last year in the US from memory. As for statistics, the interesting thing is that because formula is so rife in this country, most illnesses that could be attributed to artificial milk are never identified as such. They're thought to be "normal" conditions of an infant. You just need to look at any new baby discussion group online - or indeed in person - to see the number of questions about reflux, excessive wind, and other disorders that are linked to the gastrointestinal system. The most common factor is formula.

I'm not saying breastfed babies don't ever suffer, but it's much harder to find a breastfed baby with extreme, enduring gastro problems. Their wee tummies are not designed for cow's milk and all the preservatives and additives. Again, it's an uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless.

Suucee

This thread is really getting to me. I tried and failed to breastfeed. There were many reasons, tiredness was the main one having not slept in days. also My mother saying comments prior to baby even being born about breastfeeding in public according to her there is a time and a place. also mother in law saying how left out OH would be about not getting to feed. How I would be able to have a break etc etc. I think I was doomed before I began.
When I ran in to trouble with trying to get her latched and extremely cracked and sore nipples I felt so much guilt, she was crying and crying and so was I. I was exhausted and she was starving so I gave her a bottle.
I felt and still feel guilty about it. But when I look at my perfectly healthy 13 month old I don't think she could be any healthier or happier.
We all know breast feeding is best but the truth is it is really very difficult especially when you don't really have the support. And examples given previously about being told to relax while a nurse squeezes your nipple and tries to get a hysterical baby to latch while telling me the will crying help, it will make the milk come is exactly what I had.
I really really admire the mums who succeed and understand that it may be hard especially in public but as another poster said its time to have a look at it from the other side the formula side.
We do feel we failed and saying things about bacteria and sids etc just makes us feel a hell of a lot worse.
As I said before breast is best and I really admire those who can do it but when I switched to bottle it made me think. There is a reason that there is formula, not everyone can succeed in breast feeding so there is a substitute for parents who don't. It may not be as good but it works. . We both finally got sleep and I didn't dread holding her knowing that once I did she would cry looking for more milk the minute she was in my arms.
I was a hell of a lot happier and the benefits of a happier mum? Happier baby.

Ms2011

taz70 wrote: »

No, I think your post is hugely misinformative.

Those attributes may be associated, but artificial milk itself increases the risk of SIDS. It may be an uncomfortable fact, and sadly it's not widely promoted by formula manufacturers, but it is established.

There are a number of reasons why, but one is that formula itself is harder to digest, making babies sleep more deeply and unable to rouse themselves in the event of a critical respiratory incident.

It makes me very sad that in order to find the holy grail of babies sleeping through the night, that heavier and heavier formulas are used to fill their guts and keep them asleep. If babies wake, perhaps there's a reason for it rather than an inconvenience for us.

But at any rate, the link is there. I know that the language is usually "breastfeeding lowers the risk of SIDS", but if we consider breastfeeding to be the default position for humans, then artificial milk thus increases the risk of SIDS.

How is my post misinformative??

Read any of the recognised material on SIDS & you will see not smoking & better education on how to put a baby to sleep has dramatically reduced the numbers of babies dying from SIDS, while formula feeding rates (if they were a fator in the decline) have bearly changed.
Is it then a coincidence that breastfeeding mothers for the most part happen to be non-smokers & well educated??
There was such a drive to find a reason for SIDS that if formula had been found to be in any way a contributing factor it would have been more publically highlighted?

ronjo

MODS

OP here. Can you please CLOSE this thread.
I got the information I needed and the threa has gone the exact way I didn't want it to go.

Thanks

Ms2011

taz70 wrote: »

There were some deaths last year in the US from memory. As for statistics, the interesting thing is that because formula is so rife in this country, most illnesses that could be attributed to artificial milk are never identified as such. They're thought to be "normal" conditions of an infant. You just need to look at any new baby discussion group online - or indeed in person - to see the number of questions about reflux, excessive wind, and other disorders that are linked to the gastrointestinal system. The most common factor is formula.

I'm not saying breastfed babies don't ever suffer, but it's much harder to find a breastfed baby with extreme, enduring gastro problems. Their wee tummies are not designed for cow's milk and all the preservatives and additives. Again, it's an uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless.

I've seen just as many discussions about newborn tummy problems on this very forum from breastfeeding parents, some eventually using formula because their baby was just in too much pain. Others having to express a small amount into a bottle to mix with colic medicine etc.
Mothers jumping through all kind of hoops so they can knee at the almighty breastmilk alter rather than having the peace of mind to say, 'ok this is not for me or my child I will try formula', & to be ok with that decission rather than to be made feel like they are feeding their child poison that's gonna kill them in their sleep.

taz70

Suucee wrote: »

This thread is really getting to me. I tried and failed to breastfeed. There were many reasons, tiredness was the main one having not slept in days. also My mother saying comments prior to baby even being born about breastfeeding in public according to her there is a time and a place. also mother in law saying how left out OH would be about not getting to feed. How I would be able to have a break etc etc. I think I was doomed before I began.
When I ran in to trouble with trying to get her latched and extremely cracked and sore nipples I felt so much guilt, she was crying and crying and so was I. I was exhausted and she was starving so I gave her a bottle.
I felt and still feel guilty about it. But when I look at my perfectly healthy 13 month old I don't think she could be any healthier or happier.
We all know breast feeding is best but the truth is it is really very difficult especially when you don't really have the support. And examples given previously about being told to relax while a nurse squeezes your nipple and tries to get a hysterical baby to latch while telling me the will crying help, it will make the milk come is exactly what I had.
I really really admire the mums who succeed and understand that it may be hard especially in public but as another poster said its time to have a look at it from the other side the formula side.
We do feel we failed and saying things about bacteria and sids etc just makes us feel a hell of a lot worse.
As I said before breast is best and I really admire those who can do it but when I switched to bottle it made me think. There is a reason that there is formula, not everyone can succeed in breast feeding so there is a substitute for parents who don't. It may not be as good but it works. . We both finally got sleep and I didn't dread holding her knowing that once I did she would cry looking for more milk the minute she was in my arms.
I was a hell of a lot happier and the benefits of a happier mum? Happier baby.

Your post really says it all - you were doomed from the start, there was no support and the logical conclusion - in fact, formula advertisers make this point a lot - is that it's not possible for everyone. The fact that you were unsupported at home and let down by an inadequate medical system is tragic, but rather than being annoyed at the fact that formula is substandard - which incidentally are not designed to make you as an individual feel guilty, but is simply a medical fact - be outraged at a system and a society that encourages commercial, manufactured products rather than decent support and education.

In countries where formula is not freely available - ie it's only available on prescription - where it is not advertised and where there is decent medical support, around 98% of women initiate breastfeeding. Irish women are not physiologically incapable, they are just sadly living in a country that doesn't care enough and where women are sabotaged - doomed - from the start. And why? Because infant formula is one area the government is expecting will lead us to economic recovery.

ronjo - I'm really glad you've received the information you needed, but honestly, do you expect to control the internet and all conversation on it? Let people discuss what they need to.

ronjo

taz70 wrote: »

Your post really says it all - you were doomed from the start, there was no support and the logical conclusion - in fact, formula advertisers make this point a lot - is that it's not possible for everyone. The fact that you were unsupported at home and let down by an inadequate medical system is tragic, but rather than being annoyed at the fact that formula is substandard - which incidentally are not designed to make you as an individual feel guilty, but is simply a medical fact - be outraged at a system and a society that encourages commercial, manufactured products rather than decent support and education.

In countries where formula is not freely available - ie it's only available on prescription - where it is not advertised and where there is decent medical support, around 98% of women initiate breastfeeding. Irish women are not physiologically incapable, they are just sadly living in a country that doesn't care enough and where women are sabotaged - doomed - from the start. And why? Because infant formula is one area the government is expecting will lead us to economic recovery.

ronjo - I'm really glad you've received the information you needed, but honestly, do you expect to control the internet and all conversation on it? Let people discuss what they need to.

I know I cannot control the Internet thanks but this thread was about whether it was safe to use donated milk. It was confirmed that yes indeed it is so I am not sure what the rest has to do with the OP.
Perhaps the mods can confirm. If I am incorrect than I apologise.

Moonbeam

This thread is gone completely off topic