Prime Time Special - Child Care in Ireland (No Downloads - Please Read Post #1)

Amalgam

I find the idea of the parents controlling future repeats rather odd, it isn't in RTE's previous form, in these matters. They've shown some very contentious documentaries previously, that made this one look very mild, in comparison.

What caught my attention when all this was kicked up, is the investor links, via various companies managing the creches, to persons active and heading various facets of the Irish health service..

username123

Heroditas wrote: »

I know a couple who have their child there and they have said they are happy with how their child has been treated and will continue to send her there.
They also said that despite all the issues shown, none of the good stuff was shown.
As a result, it may come across as sensationalist.
In some ways I agree but I just don't like Giraffe anyway.

Unfortunately with a situation like this, good stuff is forgotten.

Some of the footage was hugely emotionally disturbing, but I actually found the forged paperwork very disturbing also. Id hate to think that a book was just being filled with fabrications of what my child had done.

Even if I felt my child was being treated well by staff in one of those creches I think that it would be somehow supporting bad management to keep a child there - not to say that there are not good individual workers - but even if some individuals are good, how have they lived with watching the bad practices without saying something? Particularly in that creche with the woman manhandling the children - although it is possible that that was done when she thought there was no one else present (im assuming the hidden camera was in a pair of glasses that were left on a shelf to film that particularly horrifying scene).

Inspector Dhar

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Giraffe have some neck charging a grand a month for childcare. In all seriousness though that was grim viewing last night . Those creches were like factories its a sad state of affairs that so many people have to leave their kids in a place like that all day.

This was the only post on this thread that brought a smile to my face.... .."Giraffe have some neck"

mathie

Ipso wrote: »

Do Irish people expect the government to do everything?
I find it amazing that people criticise the government at every turn, think they 're hopeless and corrupt but yet expect/trust them to look after their children.

No I don't expect the government to do everything.

But I do expect them to do the little things ... like you know ... regulate the childcare industry.

Cienciano

marxo wrote: »

Just because you don't agree does not make it nonsensical. Why bother having children if they're going to be in a crèche for 7 or 8 hours of the day.

Considering how expensive it is, the cost of petrol to commute to the crèche etc, I would like to know any couple who would be at a significant profit from their job and weigh that up against their child's happiness and wellbeing from being with their own parent.

Someone also made a point about socialisation. Crèches are not the only place where children get socialised. Going to school at 4 or 5 is also ample opportunity to develop friendships.

I'm also not trying to attack parents and understand how difficult it is, I just think they should have serious re thinks about whether their job is really worth their child's happiness.

What a ridiclous post! "Why bother having children if you're going to send them to creche"!! Are you going to home school your kids too? Assuming you don't want to miss out on time with your kids.
And what about people who have a mortgage to pay and won't give up their jobs? And "i'm not trying to attack" followed by you saying "should have serious re thinks about whether their job is really worth their child's happiness"! LOL! You're assuming that childcare equals unhappy child, and people are somehow putting themselves ahead of their children. But you're not trying to attack!
That's like saying "no offence, but you're an asshole".

Mr E

PLEASE DO NOT POST DIRECT LINKS TO THE FILE (OR TO A .TORRENT FILE)

The next person to do it gets a week off.

micks_address

What I find strange is how a lot of articles today are referring to 'emotional abuse' shown on the programme, but i would class the picking up of a child and flipping them over down onto a mat as actual physical abuse.. if you did that to an adult wouldnt it be classed as assault? I wonder will there be court cases arising from the footage? Im sure if your child was in the footage you would be feeling pretty angry towards the creche...

username123

micks_address wrote: »

What I find strange is how a lot of articles today are referring to 'emotional abuse' shown on the programme, but i would class the picking up of a child and flipping them over down onto a mat as actual physical abuse.. if you did that to an adult wouldnt it be classed as assault? I wonder will there be court cases arising from the footage? Im sure if your child was in the footage you would be feeling pretty angry towards the creche...

I agree.

I notice in this article on thejournal.ie that Frances Fitzgerald saw "emotional abuse" - perhaps she needs to go to specsavers. She who hadnt even the manners to turn up for the panel after the show. Although the same article does say that the Guards are investigating 2 of the creches - so presumably that is for criminal charges. If I were a parent I would be pursuing a criminal assault charge for that women flipping children. Someone like that should not be in the care industry in any capacity. I would question whether that individual is capable of working with people at all. She certainly needs anger management and self control classes.

Heroditas

username123 wrote: »

Even if I felt my child was being treated well by staff in one of those creches I think that it would be somehow supporting bad management to keep a child there - not to say that there are not good individual workers - but even if some individuals are good, how have they lived with watching the bad practices without saying something?

That's exactly how I feel about it as well.

monkeybutter

MrsD007 wrote: »

I reckon that Giraffe could be the safest creche in Ireland from today because of all the scrutiny that's on them.

Giraffe pay their staff the worst, so what do you expect. They are coining it now due to the free year coming out of my taxes. Why would you leave your young children in the care of absolute strangers, thats the real question, it's about as loving as sending them off to boarding school.

EdCastle

Heroditas wrote: »

They also said that despite all the issues shown, none of the good stuff was shown.
As a result, it may come across as sensationalist.

The program wasn't about highlighting the 'good stuff'. People are paying money for this service, it should be all 'good stuff'.

As was pointed out on the Joe Duffy show, most of the parents who had children involved in last night's program would have continued to believe they too were receiving an excellent service until they were actually shown the recorded footage.

Fact is, how does any parent know what is happening once they leave the childcare centre. We saw last night how the log books for the kids were given false reports to satisfy the parents.

As was reported, 75% of centres have been in breach of regulations, that is a staggering statistic and should prompt any parent to remove their blinkers.

username123

Its very unsettling the number of posts on this thread along the lines of "why would you leave your children with strangers".

Do people who echo this sentiment not realise that many people cannot afford to have a stay at home parent? That there are many single parent families? That many parents would not like to be stay at home parents? That the government policies do not support people to be stay at home parents? That childcare is not all bad.

micks_address

Thats a harsh comment - many people dont really have a choice due to financial circumstances etc, and it would be unfair to suggest all creches are like what was portrayed last night..

monkeybutter wrote: »

Giraffe pay their staff the worst, so what do you expect. They are coining it now due to the free year coming out of my taxes. Why would you leave your young children in the care of absolute strangers, thats the real question, it's about as loving as sending them off to boarding school.

Mr E

Thread cleaned up and restored.

No asking for links, posting links, posting torrents, posting google search terms or filenames. RTE have restricted availability of this episode by agreement with the parents of the children featured in the show. By posting links or asking for links, you open this site up for legal ramifications with RTE's legal team.

Thanks for your understanding.

Neeson

Mr E wrote: »

Thread cleaned up and restored.

No asking for links, posting links, posting torrents, posting google search terms or filenames. RTE have restricted availability of this episode by agreement with the parents of the children featured in the show. By posting links or asking for links, you open this site up for legal ramifications with RTE's legal team.

Thanks for your understanding.

Weren't you the very man who said it was OK to put up google search terms? Not I'm not giving out to you at all, just pointing it out to you. Did the staff have a discussion on it and decide?

Mr E

Neeson wrote: »

Did the staff have a discussion on it and decide?

I was trying to facilitate people who hadn't seen the program, but when there is a danger of possible legal action, we err on the side of caution.

Neeson

Mr E wrote: »

I was trying to facilitate people who hadn't seen the program, but when there is a danger of possible legal action, we err on the side of caution.

This is it. True for ya.

SuperInfinity

Can someone explain again why some parents want to restrict access to it?

DM addict

I'm guessing to protect their children's privacy and to prevent a situation where they may find themselves watching the footage repeatedly.

I understand their desire to restrict it to one showing - it needed to be seen and has been seen. The parents (and children) need the chance to put it behind them.

Neeson

I think it's OK to say its on YouTube. Might not be there for long but it will just continually be uploaded until them ones in RTE understand. They can't silence us.

SuperInfinity

DM addict wrote: »

I'm guessing to protect their children's privacy and to prevent a situation where they may find themselves watching the footage repeatedly.

I understand their desire to restrict it to one showing - it needed to be seen and has been seen. The parents (and children) need the chance to put it behind them.

Your reason is they might view it again by accident?

Put it behind them like... as if that was yesterday, now nothing like that will ever happen in Ireland again...?

tayto lover

I am still shocked and angry today about that programme.

Poor adorable little children being abused by people who would greet their parents with a smile and the poor parents thinking they were wonderful with the children and looking after their needs.
These young kids would not be able to tell their parents about the "lovely" day they had in that creche.

What would have been a lot worse to see are the little faces of these children which the cameras blocked out. The fear and terror would have been really shocking.

Heroditas

EdCastle wrote: »

The program wasn't about highlighting the 'good stuff'. People are paying money for this service, it should be all 'good stuff'.

As was pointed out on the Joe Duffy show, most of the parents who had children involved in last night's program would have continued to believe they too were receiving an excellent service until they were actually shown the recorded footage.

Fact is, how does any parent know what is happening once they leave the childcare centre. We saw last night how the log books for the kids were given false reports to satisfy the parents.

As was reported, 75% of centres have been in breach of regulations, that is a staggering statistic and should prompt any parent to remove their blinkers.

I know, which is why I find my friends' reaction downright puzzling.

LadyMayBelle

It has now been blocked on youtube. From youtube:

This video contains content from The Orchard Music and RTE, one or more of whom have blocked it on copyright grounds.

But still watchable on my phone?

sam30

I have to say after being horrified and upset by what I would categorize as the ABUSE those children suffered at the hands of their carers (NOT "mishandling, or inappropriate unacceptable behaviour" words bandied around in the media today). I am also dismayed by some of the reactions of posters here. Minimization of what we saw in that footage is dangerous!!!. For example, while checking messages on a phone may seem like a "minor offence" to some people it is telling of the level of interest, care, attention the carers were showing towards those children - children's sense of self and confidence develop only in light of the interest and care shown toward them - so the message that they were receiving throughout the day was that they were a nuisance, shouldn't express themselves, not interesting enough etc etc. They also weren't being monitored!! I am paying through the nose for my child to be safe at the very basic level.

I have my little one in a creche for the past month for 2 days/week .I chose the creche carefully and over a childminder because in my line of work I was aware of trying to minimise the likelyhood of abuse happening and although I had concerns about the attention given and relationships in a creche my first instinct was perhaps safety in numbers!!! How wrong was I! Nobody in the room said anything to those cruel abusive women!

The lack of awareness of the developmental level of an 18 month old also was just SHOCKING!! I had assumed that such workers would have a basic understanding of when a child's ability to understand and reason would kick in and that waiting and sitting for long periods is a couple of years away!

I could go on and on because all I saw was emotional,mental and physical abuse throughout and when that wasn't there I saw a huge lack of interest and care for young adorable fun wobblers. although they were going through the motions of those stupid pointless curricula creches seem to have there was very little natural fun or laughter happening. I am gutted for those parents involved and those who'se children were there in the past because I would always wonder if my child had difficulties in teh future could they be related to the creche experience and as a clinician who works with children I know the answer is YES YES YES!!!

So I will be taking my girl out of the creche she is in and it won't be a knee jerk reaction as I have been uncertain from day 1, but having watched this programme I dont think any amount of training or increase in wage will improve the nature/personality of some who are totally unsuitable to working with children and the woman who I hand my girl over to for 2 days a week first thing has not given out a good vibe (even though the other 2 girls are lovely). I can't control which carer my girl gets to spend her time with in there to ensure her happiness so Im now on the search for a good childminder as I have to work full-time.

Holyjebus

sam30 wrote: »

I have to say after being horrified and upset by what I would categorize as the ABUSE those children suffered at the hands of their carers (NOT "mishandling, or inappropriate unacceptable behaviour" words bandied around in the media today). I am also dismayed by some of the reactions of posters here. Minimization of what we saw in that footage is dangerous!!!. For example, while checking messages on a phone may seem like a "minor offence" to some people it is telling of the level of interest, care, attention the carers were showing towards those children - children's sense of self and confidence develop only in light of the interest and care shown toward them - so the message that they were receiving throughout the day was that they were a nuisance, shouldn't express themselves, not interesting enough etc etc. They also weren't being monitored!! I am paying through the nose for my child to be safe at the very basic level.

I have my little one in a creche for the past month for 2 days/week .I chose the creche carefully and over a childminder because in my line of work I was aware of trying to minimise the likelyhood of abuse happening and although I had concerns about the attention given and relationships in a creche my first instinct was perhaps safety in numbers!!! How wrong was I! Nobody in the room said anything to those cruel abusive women!

The lack of awareness of the developmental level of an 18 month old also was just SHOCKING!! I had assumed that such workers would have a basic understanding of when a child's ability to understand and reason would kick in and that waiting and sitting for long periods is a couple of years away!

I could go on and on because all I saw was emotional,mental and physical abuse throughout and when that wasn't there I saw a huge lack of interest and care for young adorable fun wobblers. although they were going through the motions of those stupid pointless curricula creches seem to have there was very little natural fun or laughter happening. I am gutted for those parents involved and those who'se children were there in the past because I would always wonder if my child had difficulties in teh future could they be related to the creche experience and as a clinician who works with children I know the answer is YES YES YES!!!

So I will be taking my girl out of the creche she is in and it won't be a knee jerk reaction as I have been uncertain from day 1, but having watched this programme I dont think any amount of training or increase in wage will improve the nature/personality of some who are totally unsuitable to working with children and the woman who I hand my girl over to for 2 days a week first thing has not given out a good vibe (even though the other 2 girls are lovely). I can't control which carer my girl gets to spend her time with in there to ensure her happiness so Im now on the search for a good childminder as I have to work full-time.

+ 100
I had my two boys in creche until recently, when I decided to take them out and have a loving childminder take care of them instead. The change in them was immediate.
My 14 month old would scream when I took him into creche and when he saw his minder, his lip would start to tremble and he would cling to me, I knew something wasn't right.
He is a new little man with his new minder, when he sees her out socially (she is a good friend of my mams) his little face lights up and he runs to her, arms opened!
My other son is 3 and never minded creche too much but he is the quitest little fella you'd ever meet and I would say he kept the head down all day long and never complained But he is a lot happier in the evenings now and full of chat about his day.
My heart went out to those poor babies and their parents and I thank God that they were uncovered when they were.

Iused2likebusts

Inspector Dhar wrote: »

This was the only post on this thread that brought a smile to my face.... .."Giraffe have some neck"

Im glad somebody got my attempt at a joke.:) Not that the overall situation is in anyway funny.

Lady Chatterton

Just spotted this on the Examiner website tonight :eek:

Parents defend quality of child care at Malahide creche

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/parents-defend-quality-of-child-care-at-malahide-creche-595926.html

tayto lover

MrsD007 wrote: »

Just spotted this on the Examiner website tonight :eek:





http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/parents-defend-quality-of-child-care-at-malahide-creche-595926.html

Well seeing that Mrs Fitzpatrick is also back with her son's killer nothing surprises me.
I would have had that creche shut today if it was up to me.

Lady Chatterton

tayto lover wrote: »

Well seeing that Mrs Fitzpatrick is also back with her son's killer nothing surprises me.
I would have had that creche shut today if it was up to me.

I think it might be a case of denial

I'm struggling to understand the Fitzpatrick case, if someone killed my child, I wouldn't be taking them back, I'd probably be doing time I'd be so angry

Gee_G

MrsD007 wrote: »

Just spotted this on the Examiner website tonight :eek:





http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/parents-defend-quality-of-child-care-at-malahide-creche-595926.html

What is wrong with these people? Its not a case of someone just spreading bad stories around about the creche, they can see it with their own eyes.

I've just watched the program and I feel sick after it! I have a 9 month old and after watching it, I don't want to send him to creche, ever!!! It was absolutely bloody horrendous!

purplecow1977

MrsD007 wrote: »

I think it might be a case of denial

I'm struggling to understand the Fitzpatrick case, if someone killed my child, I wouldn't be taking them back, I'd probably be doing time I'd be so angry

I thought he was released without charge......

tayto lover

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I thought he was released without charge......

A file has been sent to the office of the DPP and he will decide which charges will be put against him.

Lady Chatterton

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I thought he was released without charge......

He admitted killing his step son, he was released without charge but a file has been sent to the DPP.

Knife killing 'unintentional', says father of Amy's stepdad

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/knife-killing-unintentional-says-father-of-amys-stepdad-29300501.html

SuperInfinity

I think any parent that defends something like that isn't fit to be a parent and there should be serious investigations into the treatment of their children. No wonder there are so many crimes and so much delinquency in inner city areas if these are their earliest memories. Some of these things you wouldn't see in a Romanian orphanage.

How would you like it if in the middle of the day and full of energy you were told you must now go and lie down. And their huge hand was on you forcibly pushing you to lie down, and this fat vicious bitch was shouting into your small ear: "LIE DOWN!!!! :mad: LIE DOWN!!! :mad:" as you tried to get up? Even I was traumatized after watching it last night.

The child picked something up and they snatched it away. The child tried to reach out to eat as natural and they were told no, they must wait for this person to put it into their mouth. I really fear what's going to happen when these children grow up....

gowley

he said today that it was an accident and he didnt realise he was dead until his father woke him up the following morning. no matter what its very very strange

i am so angry watching this , i have a lump in my throat , if that was my child , i beat her black and blue what a bitch

its so sad

purplecow1977

Gee_G wrote: »

What is wrong with these people? Its not a case of someone just spreading bad stories around about the creche, they can see it with their own eyes.

I've just watched the program and I feel sick after it! I have a 9 month old and after watching it, I don't want to send him to creche, ever!!! It was absolutely bloody horrendous!

Not ALL of the workers were 'horrendous' though - just the ones we saw.

Unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush.

Gee_G

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Not ALL of the workers were 'horrendous' though - just the ones we saw.

Unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush.

Maybe the ones that were not shown on camera at all, but any of the workers that were standing by watching and listening to that crap going on, are just as bad in my opinion!

gowley

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Not ALL of the workers were 'horrendous' though - just the ones we saw.

Unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush.

worrying that there were examples of abuse and cruelty in all but one of the creches filmed. this would suggest that if they filmed in a much wider scale they would also find examples of more abuse

purplecow1977

gowley wrote: »

worrying that there were examples of abuse and cruelty in all but one of the creches filmed. this would suggest that if they filmed in a much wider scale they would also find examples of more abuse

I agree. It was only a small case sample. What I mean though is that there are probably GOOD workers in those creches also. A few 'bad eggs' spoiling things.

tayto lover

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Not ALL of the workers were 'horrendous' though - just the ones we saw.

Unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush.

I didn't hear any of the others telling them to lay-off though. Cowards.

dark crystal

MrsD007 wrote: »

Just spotted this on the Examiner website tonight :eek:





http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/parents-defend-quality-of-child-care-at-malahide-creche-595926.html

I can't get my head around any parent sending their children back to that creche. I don't deny the Creches in question suspended and dismissed these particular employees, but the other staff witnessed these incidents and in my opinion, were complicit in the abuse of these defenceless babies. I never once saw any other member of staff either confront these employees over their behaviour, nor help or comfort the distressed children.

Why would someone defend a childcare facility where the staff turned a blind eye to the mistreatment of children and where no manager was on hand to supervise these workers?

Those children didn't have a voice, but the other staff did. If my child's creche systematically lied about my child's activities that day, employed unchecked and abusive staff and failed in it's care of duty towards my child, why on earth would I ever entrust them to take care of my child again? The mind boggles.

gowley

its all off the record. no names mentioned although to be fair i did also hear parents on the radio today being interviewed on the radio saying that it was just one bad egg. hard for me to fathom when everyone else there turned a blind eye.

Lady Chatterton

The thing that worries be most about last night's programme is how children with special needs would have been treated.

Many children with special needs are non-verbal or have speech delay so they wouldn't even be able to communicate issues to their parents The only way they could indicate there was something wrong would be through behaviour but that could incorrectly be attributed to the child being bold as opposed to a problem with the staff.

purplecow1977

gowley wrote: »

its all off the record. no names mentioned although to be fair i did also hear parents on the radio today being interviewed on the radio saying that it was just one bad egg. hard for me to fathom when everyone else there turned a blind eye.

I know.
Very hard.
Very sad affair.

gowley

MrsD007 wrote: »

The thing that worries be most about last night's programme is how children with special needs would have been treated.

Many children with special needs are non-verbal or have speech delay so they wouldn't even be able to communicate the issues to their parents The only way they could indicate there was something wrong would be through behaviour but that could incorrectly be attributed to the child being bold as opposed to a problem with the staff.

i could be wrong but most of the kids in these were very young and possibly too young to communicate to their parents the issues they were having. so fully agree with your point but would add that kids too young would do the exact same. the hse also has a lot to answer for in the way they check these places

tayto lover

MrsD007 wrote: »

The thing that worries be most about last night's programme is how children with special needs would have been treated.

Many children with special needs are non-verbal or have speech delay so they wouldn't even be able to communicate issues to their parents The only way they could indicate there was something wrong would be through behaviour but that could incorrectly be attributed to the child being bold as opposed to a problem with the staff.

I'd say that if people were shown the faces of the children and the pain in those little faces there would have been real uproar today.

Last night I was shocked and disgusted, today I am worse, very angry.

Lady Chatterton

gowley wrote: »

i could be wrong but most of the kids in these were very young and possibly too young to communicate to their parents the issues they were having. so fully agree with your point but would add that kids too young would do the exact same. the hse also has a lot to answer for in the way they check these places

I agree with you but I was just thinking about young children with Down Syndrome or Autism too, many of whom are non-verbal and tend to have very high anxiety levels at the best of times, being thrown around or being shouted at could do serious damage to them.

neto

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