anti 457

danotroy

ive seen an increasing number of these around on billboards in melbourne over the last forthnight and an increase in news paperarticles stating that too many 457's are being issued.

Its seems both the media and the construction industry are uniting on the front against the influx of temporary skilled workers?

I think this is a dangerous road to go down as the inherent racism in Australia could easily spread through the classes who perceive that they have been hit most.

catbear

Most aussies i know who give out about 457 think it's all about chinese workers. When i explain that i'm a 457 they're surprised and say things like "but you're one of us".
I've never experienced any "racism" for being Irish but instead have been told on two occasions "we need more of you, too many blacks getting in".

danotroy

catbear wrote: »

Most aussies i know who give out about 457 think it's all about chinese workers. When i explain that i'm a 457 they're surprised and say things like "but you're one of us".
I've never experienced any "racism" for being Irish but instead have been told on two occasions "we need more of you, too many blacks getting in".

I maybe should of articulated my point a bit more. From what i have read in the media they are stating the fact that the uk and ireland are second and third respectivly in the uptake of 457's but on the front page they had a picture of an indian man with a headline of no more 457's! or something to that effect. then you had brendan o connor claiming that 10,000's of 457s were rorted when in fact 0.58 per cent of 29,100 visas were in fact dishonest.

My point is this scare mongering can create an atmospehere of distruct towards 457 visa holders. An extreme case would be guys such as this guy banding all of us together as 457 free loading hippies.
<mod edit>No need for this video</snip>

danotroy

danotroy wrote: »

I maybe should of articulated my point a bit more. From what i have read in the media they are stating the fact that the uk and ireland are second and third respectivly in the uptake of 457's but on the front page they had a picture of an indian man with a headline of no more 457's! or something to that effect. then you had brendan o connor claiming that 10,000's of 457s were rorted when in fact 0.58 per cent of 29,100 visas were in fact dishonest.

My point is this scare mongering can create an atmospehere of distruct towards 457 visa holders. An extreme case would be guys such as this guy banding all of us together as 457 free loading hippies.

I acknowledge this is an extreme comparision, i am not on a 457 i just think its stange that externally the australian government is trying to get skilled workers to come but internally they are trying to drag the process down via the press and these adverts.

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

0.58 per cent of 29,100 visas were in fact dishonest.

Its 29,100 active sponsors not visas, and like it says that's the ones that have only been found guilty so far.

DIAC and the ATO are to cross data match the personal pay and tax records of temporary visa holders going back to 2011 to find out exactly how much and who exactly have been paying them.

They just haven't been caught yet.

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

Its 29,100 active sponsors not visas, and like it says that's the ones that have only been found guilty so far.

DIAC and the ATO are to cross data match the personal pay and tax records of temporary visa holders going back to 2011 to find out exactly how much and who exactly have been paying them.

They just haven't been caught yet.

my mistake. but o connor did say "I was asked to sort of give an estimate, and that is my estimate,” Mr O'Connor told ABC radio

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

my mistake. but o connor did say "I was asked to sort of give an estimate, and that is my estimate,” Mr O'Connor told ABC radio

Yeah O'Connor made an estimate of 10,000 without consulting DIAC advisors, he was heavily criticised for making such a outrageous figure without having the proof. The next week the ATO and DIAC announced that they were cross matching the personal information of Temporary visa holders up to 3 years rather than the 90 days for everyone else.

DIAC denied it wasn't specifically targeting 457 visa holders but that it was looking at all temporary visa holders, this is a lie. O'Connor announced that figure was criticised and then is going to justify it by catching them out in the tax records thats something that takes time.

10,000 might be a bit OTT but its defnitely more than 0.58 %

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

Yeah O'Connor made an estimate of 10,000 without consulting DIAC advisors, he was heavily criticised for making such a outrageous figure without having the proof. The next week the ATO and DIAC announced that they were cross matching the personal information of Temporary visa holders up to 3 years rather than the 90 days for everyone else.

DIAC denied it wasn't specifically targeting 457 visa holders but that it was looking at all temporary visa holders, this is a lie. O'Connor announced that figure was criticised and then is going to justify it by catching them out in the tax records thats something that takes time.

10,000 might be a bit OTT but its defnitely more than 0.58 %

i am not an expert on this matter. however i am in the opinion that scaremongering leads to more and more scaremongering which leads to people looking for a scape goat when they peercieve they are being shafted. I have been on the receiving end of a drunken rant from a islander on a train to the effect of “go home stop stealing our jobs” who insisted the Irish were the reason he couldn’t get a job. The more the media play the 457 card the more these incidents will occur.

hussey

Yeah it's election campaign time, what better way to get votes than to promise the people more jobs, more money and more future.
Damn those skilled workers!!

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

i am not an expert on this matter. however i am in the opinion that scaremongering leads to more and more scaremongering which leads to people looking for a scape goat when they peercieve they are being shafted. I have been on the receiving end of a drunken rant from a islander on a train to the effect of “go home stop stealing our jobs” who insisted the Irish were the reason he couldn’t get a job. The more the media play the 457 card the more these incidents will occur.

Everyone probably knows someone who did something a bit bodgy for a 457, example knowingly being paid less than the TSMIT, labourers being sponsored as something in a skilled occupation, paying a sham employer $6000 to nominate them etc.

It might be a bit of scaremongering alright but there is definitely a basis of truth there, no smoke without fire. Even the Libs now admit they support/will continue support the 457 reforms as sensible house keeping so you know the current system it's not exactly kosher.

jackbhoy

danotroy wrote: »

ive seen an increasing number of these around on billboards in melbourne over the last forthnight and an increase in news paperarticles stating that too many 457's are being issued.

Its seems both the media and the construction industry are uniting on the front against the influx of temporary skilled workers?

I think this is a dangerous road to go down as the inherent racism in Australia could easily spread through the classes who perceive that they have been hit most.

Tbh I think the message in that poster is fair enough i.e. help train young Aussies to fill skills shortage long term rather than import people from other side of the world.

I'm not on a 457 myself but on the rare occasion when I have heard criticism I always answer with: "457 people only contribute to your economy without taking anything out, that is, they work, pay tax and spend their earnings in Aussie businesses but have never received a cent from the Aussie taxpayer by way of dole, education support or healthcare etc"

No6

I think the bit that a lot of Aussies miss out on is the skilled bit, I have noticed in my time here that the same emphasis is not put on further education by Australians as we do in Ireland.

The Aussie

jackbhoy wrote: »

Tbh I think the message in that poster is fair enough i.e. help train young Aussies to fill skills shortage long term rather than import people from other side of the world.

Thats what i thought straight away, but some people look for the Racism card when its not there, or suits their agenda...
It also smacks of a CFMEU membership drive to be honest, with a lead up to a Federal Election they are trying to remind Labour where its roots are.

I actually see nothing wrong with it in a way, you always need to be training the next generation no matter what industry it is, the Trade system in Ireland has totally collapsed and in years to come when it picks up there is going to be a massive generation gap and knowledge drain (will be good for me in retirement though :pac:). If Ireland had more control over immigration and Unions that were not in bed with Employers, the total collapse of the Construction Industry would have been far more controlled and gradual,resulting in far less Irish Tradesmen forced to emigrate for a better life for themselves and their family.

CatFromHue

I know one of the guys I worked with was giving out about the lack of apprenticeships and that there was too much specialization in lesser qualifications instead i.e. instead of someone doing an apprenticeship as a fitter they'd do a a course in lathe work or something instead.

I genuinely have no idea if he was talking rubbish or not though

jackbhoy

CatFromHue wrote: »

I know one of the guys I worked with was giving out about the lack of apprenticeships and that there was too much specialization in lesser qualifications instead i.e. instead of someone doing an apprenticeship as a fitter they'd do a a course in lathe work or something instead.

I genuinely have no idea if he was talking rubbish or not though

Think about it though. Under the current system if you owned a construction business, had a ton of work on and needed resources, are you going to invest in 3-4 years of training up an apprentice or take on a 457? With the latter you have someone ready to go, who requires little or no training and (most tempting of all) you can negotiate hard on salary etc because you hold so much of bargaining power.

I think the 457 visa has an important role to play in resolving real skills shortages but the way it works currently, (in some sectors) it is actually contributing to long term skills shortages by making training of young workers such an unattractive proposition!

danotroy

Im just trying to highlight an issue I feel is rising here. Yes for sure train apprentices, but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.

catbear

The Aussie wrote: »

If Ireland had more control over immigration and Unions that were not in bed with Employers, the total collapse of the Construction Industry would have been far more controlled and gradual,resulting in far less Irish Tradesmen forced to emigrate for a better life for themselves and their family.

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

Zambia

This is true tradesmen were seen as raking in the cash, hence several people migrated to that line of work.

I see nothing wrong with the poster. The state as a whole would prefer to see its youth engaged and heading to skilled work as opposed to having them on the dole and importing in foreign workers.

Cooperspale

catbear wrote: »

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

Totally agree, I know 4 farmers who became builders overnight and there is no way they'd have gone into construction except for the celtic bubble

Slidey

I do see their point.

I work on a minesite as a fitter, a lot of us there are imports, be it Europe of NZ. As was pointed out the other day, there must be at the very least 150 fitters working on site and not one single apprentice. How they expect to replace the 457 imports when this mentality is in place is beyond me

mandrake04

jackbhoy wrote: »

Think about it though. Under the current system if you owned a construction business, had a ton of work on and needed resources, are you going to invest in 3-4 years of training up an apprentice or take on a 457? With the latter you have someone ready to go, who requires little or no training and (most tempting of all) you can negotiate hard on salary etc because you hold so much of bargaining power.

I think the 457 visa has an important role to play in resolving real skills shortages but the way it works currently, (in some sectors) it is actually contributing to long term skills shortages by making training of young workers such an unattractive proposition!

There's definitely a genuine need for 457 to quickly fill holes in "Skilled" occupations, but if you look beyond the mist the unions and government are not really targeting the Nurses, Doctors, Engineers, fitters, carpenters etc they are talking about jobs in lower skilled and unskilled, employers sponsoring friends/family for the sake of it, sponsoring people who are prepared to work for less money and conditions because there might be a chance of permanent residency at the end of it.

Even the unions are saying that they want the 28 day rule scrapped because it gives the employer to much control, they would rather see it scrapped and introduce a right of appeal for Australians who missed out on a job. Next they will want to break the employers biggest weapon.... link of 457 to PR.

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.

Why not?

Why would English and Irish Taxi drivers deserve more than an Indian Taxi driver?

Would you say an Irish labourer [Insert dressed up skill here] is more deserving of a 457 than an Indian Doctor?

danotroy

catbear wrote: »

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

I for sure can attest to this. Alot of my friends are now 28-29 in their final year of study for their first degree as when they finished school at 18 they went straight for apprenticeships, made some great money until they got laid off spent it all and went back to uni.

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

Why not?

Why would English and Irish Taxi drivers deserve more than an Indian Taxi driver?

Would you say an Irish labourer [Insert dressed up skill here] is more deserving of a 457 than an Indian Doctor?

This is the exact point im making. If the media are going to go down the road of blaming the 457s for the lack of jobs a witch hunt may likely follow. I have seen in the melbourne papers a full spread to the effect of "457 scammers" with a picture of a few indian men on the cover and the text stated that indians were the biggest users/abusers of 457's. They also said irish and english were heavy users/abusers but the emphasis was on indians coming and taking our jobs.

And no I would definitely not say the Irish&English are more deserving to be here than any other person. I think I may have been wrong with the original poster calling for apprenticeships but the tone of the newspaper I saw the other week wasn’t too welcoming for those who weren’t English or irish.

AngryHippie

jackbhoy wrote: »

Think about it though. Under the current system if you owned a construction business, had a ton of work on and needed resources, are you going to invest in 3-4 years of training up an apprentice or take on a 457? With the latter you have someone ready to go, who requires little or no training and (most tempting of all) you can negotiate hard on salary etc because you hold so much of bargaining power.

I think the 457 visa has an important role to play in resolving real skills shortages but the way it works currently, (in some sectors) it is actually contributing to long term skills shortages by making training of young workers such an unattractive proposition!

Part of the problem comes from where the skills shortages are.

If you look at a typical mine site, (mining and related construction account for a large proportion of the skills shortage) Most work on a mine site involves high risk work. Apprentices, due to their age and their lack of experience, are a far higher risk on a mine site. Indeed some of the bizarre safety measures you will find in a typical SWMS on a mine have been put in place because of an apprentice or inexperienced worker a number of years ago. If it happens once, they presume they are exposed to it again, and they are forced by due diligence and duty of care to put measures in place to prevent recurrence. This extra measure of safety usually slows production down....resulting in an increased demand for skilled labor to complete a given project in a given time-frame.

The reality of the situation is that a high risk mine site is no place for an apprentice, they are too green and too gung-ho to avoid incidents and LTI's.

The Vocational Training system over here is quite good, but unfortunately, there is no regulated scheme to gradually increase exposure to risk. One day your plumbing in domestic houses, you apply for a job, complete your S11 and a month later you are in a high risk multi-hazard environment. No amount of induction or training can make this transition without someone getting carried away or a lapse in concentration. Then its down tools, investigate, re-assess and review the entire safety management plan. (which would be audited every three months in any case)

Its a tricky one, and unfortunately for the odd ill-informed aussie, its a situation entirely of their own making, and the 457 skilled visa is the best short-term solution to the problem.
A high proportion of these workers will take their skills overseas when things get quiet in any case, moving on to the next boom on the next continent that allows them. The ones that stay, will contribute to the economy & society, for the most part be grateful for the opportunities and will only add to the future skills pool for the next upturn in commodity prices.

Try telling them that !!!!:pac:

catbear

As it's election season and mining is waning 457 visas are an easy target, personally i don't take any of it seriously. I actually make a joke of it when people ask me am i staying long term, " i don't know, if my 457 goes i'll be deported". They hate when someone says that!

The Aussie

catbear wrote: »

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

Yes, I remember the whole fantasy (in a good way:D),

You could not even stop at the service station for fuel without being offered a job, not the point I was making though.

catbear

I've reread your post Aussie and the only thing I can glean from it is that you want tighter immigration policies in Ireland. Ireland has always benefited from pooling its labour market with the UK and the EU to a lesser extent and I don't see any reason why that has to change. Emigrants can't be blamed for the mismanagement of Ireland during the septic tiger, if anything they were mostly late arrivals to the party but seem to take a disproportionate amount of the blame if listening to the Joe Duffy show is anything to go by.

But then again listening to Australian media where all refugees are criminals I can understand why see things the way you do.

The Aussie

danotroy wrote: »

I think I may have been wrong with the original poster calling for apprenticeships.

YES.

danotroy wrote: »

The tone of the newspaper I saw the other week wasn’t too welcoming for those who weren’t English or irish.

Was I like this one....



You seem to keep on pushing for the whole race thing, Why?

The Aussie

catbear wrote: »

I've reread your post Aussie and the only thing I can glean from it is that you want had tighter immigration policies in Ireland

That boat has long sailed, the point was if Ireland had control of its own border.

catbear

The Aussie wrote: »

That boat has long sailed, the point was if Ireland had control of its own border.

If Ireland remained isolated from Europe and the world you might not be an Aussie in Ireland.