anti 457

The Aussie

catbear wrote: »

If Ireland remained isolated from Europe and the world you might not be an Aussie in Ireland.

Your right, the joys of having 3 Passports I suppose, I can blow anywhere the wind takes, might even end up in America yet with the Wife's job.

danotroy

The Aussie wrote: »

YES.



You seem to keep on pushing for the whole race thing, Why?

Because of the inherent racism in australia! it is in everywhere. even in the public sector council job i was in was rife with racism the whole department was white and would often make snide racist remarks. these were educated people! if you need a current example refer to this weekends footy action and fallout thereafter.

your typical bogan australia will see all the negative hype in the media about foreign workers when in fact the majority are irish english. much ado about nothing, just the racist media fueling a fire that nobody here seriously wants to put out .

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Because of the inherent racism in australia! it is in everywhere. even in the public sector council job i was in was rife with racism the whole department was white and would often make snide racist remarks. these were educated people! if you need a current example refer to this weekends footy action and fallout thereafter.

your typical bogan australia will see all the negative hype in the media about foreign workers when in fact the majority are irish english. much ado about nothing, just the racist media fueling a fire that nobody here seriously wants to put out .

I think that's a pretty big call. That you think that there is inherent racism in Australia? You do realise what 'inherent' means don't you? Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I live in a very multicultural country and don't for a second believe that the views of a minority or the actions of individuals that happened to be reported and on occasion sensationalised in the media are reflective of most Australians day to day dealings in their communities.

I see more racism and gross generalisations in this forum than I see in my day to day life that's for sure.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I think that's a pretty big call. That you think that there is inherent racism in Australia? You do realise what 'inherent' means don't you? Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I live in a very multicultural country and don't for a second believe that the views of a minority or the actions of individuals that happened to be reported and on occasion sensationalised in the media are reflective of most Australians day to day dealings in their communities.

I see more racism and gross generalisations in this forum than I see in my day to day life that's for sure.

Will are you denying australia has a problem with racism?

*I would say ireland still has a problem with racism but it pales in comparison to the undercurrent of racism here.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Will are you denying australia has a problem with racism?

Yes, I am denying that 'Australia' as in Australia the country has a problem with racism. Australia the country is I am guessing probably one of the most culturally and ethnically diverse countries in the world. There are of course racist individuals in this country (not all of them born here as evidenced by this board) but I think that they are far from a majority here and that Australia is not a country where racism is intrinsic or inborn or characteristic or an essential attribute as your use of the word inherent would suggest.

Australia is not an inherently racist country and it's offensive and ignorant for you to suggest as much.

Is there racism here in Australia...well yes, because as has been shown clearly here there are posters here in Australia that hold views and express opinions that could clearly be judged or interpreted as racist. That's aside from our home grown racists who express similar views.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Yes, I am denying that 'Australia' as in Australia the country has a problem with racism. Australia the country is I am guessing probably one of the most culturally and ethnically diverse countries in the world. There are of course racist individuals in this country (not all of them born here as evidenced by this board) but I think that they are far from a majority here and that Australia is not a country where racism is intrinsic or inborn or characteristic or an essential attribute as your use of the word inherent would suggest.

Australia is not an inherently racist country and it's offensive and ignorant for you to suggest as much.

Is there racism here in Australia...well yes, because as has been shown clearly here there are posters here in Australia that hold views and express opinions that could clearly be judged or interpreted as racist. That's aside from our home grown racists who express similar views.

ok. your claiming that australia is racist because of people on this forum?
I obey the laws of australia i have never made a racist remark whilst here and I get uneasy in the office when such behaviour is seen as common ive raised it with a colleague who told me its australia mateee. It is my opinion that australia has a problem with racism.

more than 1 in 3 respondents believed that ‘Australia is weakened by people of different ethnic origins sticking to their old
ways’; and
more than 1 in 3 respondents agreed with the statement that there were groups that did not belong in Australia


http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/~/media/ProgramsandProjects/Publications/Attachments/Building%20on%20our%20strengths%20-%20full%20report%20v2.ashx

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Will are you denying australia has a problem with racism?

*I would say ireland still has a problem with racism but it pales in comparison to the undercurrent of racism here.

Well having lived in Ireland for 10 years and having been back here in Aus for 2 I would have to disagree.

Your edit here doesn't reflect my experience at all.

danotroy

Must apologise for the edits working on a small screen its tough, I shall not edit again as it may look like I’m trying to sneak a point past you further up the page ! A point I was trying to make in my last post about the vic health study on racism is that while Australia may be a large culturally and ethically diverse place it doesn't mean everyone is accepted as equals.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

ok. your claiming that australia is racist because of people on this forum?

No, I am claiming that there are people who are on this forum who are expressing views that could be construed as racist.

I obey the laws of australia i have never made a racist remark whilst here

'Yes for sure train apprentices, but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.'

See if you said that in my office I would tell you to pull your head in.

and I get uneasy in the office when such behaviour is seen as common ive raised it with a colleague who told me its australia mateee. It is my opinion that australia has a problem with racism.

I'd have to agree with you. Because if you were in my office and you expressed many of the views you had here I would consider many of your generalisations and opinions as inherently racist.

more than 1 in 3 respondents believed that ‘Australia is weakened by people of different ethnic origins sticking to their old
ways’; and
more than 1 in 3 respondents agreed with the statement that there were groups that did not belong in Australia


http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/~/media/ProgramsandProjects/Publications/Attachments/Building%20on%20our%20strengths%20-%20full%20report%20v2.ashx

Here's a study for you.

1 in 3 Irish people believe in leprechauns.



http://www.irishcentral.com/news/One-third-of-Irish-people-believe-in-leprechauns---do-you-118981264.html

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

'Yes for sure train apprentices, but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.'

See if you said that in my office I would tell you to pull your head in.


l[/url]

I wasn't saying this as if i said it. I was expressing the sentiment in the hearld sun if you look at my other posts. In short the hearld sun had a front page article on abuse of the 457 visa and had a picture of an indian chef or taxi driver on the front.

Instead of an irish labourer Skilled worked.

Will Heffernan

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I'd have to agree with you. Because if you were in my office and you expressed many of the views you had here I would consider many of your generalisations and opinions as inherently racist.]

Which I say to illustrate the fact...that even though you may 'say' things that could be construed as racist that you ARE in fact racist.

That as you pointed out:

more than 1 in 3 respondents believed that ‘Australia is weakened by people of different ethnic origins sticking to their old
ways’; and
more than 1 in 3 respondents agreed with the statement that there were groups that did not belong in Australia

I believe that people might 'say' that but I don't believe that 1 in 3 Australians are racists or that they want to see 'different ethnic groups' leave the country or that they truly believed that there was no place for them here.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Which I say to illustrate the fact...that even though you may 'say' things that could be construed as racist that you ARE in fact racist.





I believe that people might 'say' that but I don't believe that 1 in 3 Australians are racists or that they want to see 'different ethnic groups' leave the country or that they truly believed that there was no place for them here.

What would people gain by claiming that people dont belong here in a study by the health board?
i would of thought it would of been the opposite in that people would claim to be a better person in a study rather than a worse person.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

What would people gain by claiming that people dont belong here in a study by the health board?
i would of thought it would of been the opposite in that people would claim to be a better person in a study rather than a worse person.

What would 1 in 3 Irish people gain from claiming to believe in leprechauns?

I haven't looked at the details of the study but to answer your question off the top of my head...1. People find many inappropriate ways to express their dissatisfaction and displeasure....this could be one of those. 2. People often say things that they don't really mean. I could go on an on.

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

just the racist media fueling a fire that nobody here seriously wants to put out .

maybe you could share some of this racist media with us.

Most of the mainstream media seems to support 457 visas or at least critical of the government over them.

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

maybe you could share some of this racist media with us.

Most of the mainstream media seems to support 457 visas or at least critical of the government over them.

I cannot find it online unfortunately. It was herald sun print media a week or so back.

Will you are comparing a government funded study against an Irish America newspaper fun article that's not even Apple and pears thats Apple and yachts.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

I cannot find it online unfortunately. It was herald sun print media a week or so back.

Will you are comparing a government funded study against an Irish America newspaper fun article that's not even Apple and pears thats Apple and yachts.

I am speaking generally.

We are going to have a change of government here in Australia I think.

We are talking about a country with a AAA+ international credit rating, a couple of decades of continual growth, a nation with relatively high wages and low taxes with very little 'real' unemployment when compared to other nations.

I was away for 10 years and having come home I can't believe how much 'many' Australians whinge, complain and moan...just like I see a lot of Irish here on this board and Irish people I meet day to day whinging and complaining about how crap it is they can't get ANOTHER job where for 3 months they turned a stop sign for a couple of grand a week.

1. People say stupid stuff.
2. People whinge about stupid things.

You were saying that Australia is inherently racist...that is garbage. It's not true.

I could start making all sorts of stupid generalisations about the Irish....about Irish backpackers and it would be equally garbage and idiotic as some of the views I've seen expressed here...like the one about Australia being an inherently racist country.

Will Heffernan

The point I wanted to make...that I didn't even get close to above was that...we have things relatively good here in Australia and yet we are likely to have a change of government because people think things should be better.

These are people who are doing well that think they should be doing better.

They survey people in the street and ask them a loaded question and then you get to use that to back up your argument that Australia is inherently racist.

I just don't buy it.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

The point I wanted to make...that I didn't even get close to above was that...we have things relatively good here in Australia and yet we are likely to have a change of government because people think things should be better.

These are people who are doing well that think they should be doing better.

They survey people in the street and ask them a loaded question and then you get to use that to back up your argument that Australia is inherently racist.

I just don't buy it.

You obviously don't think very much of your government if yoy think one of their health bodies would just stop people in the street with a loaded question to make it seem the country is loaded. I love this country and if you Gave me a horror story about a back packer I would believe it.
Your head is in the sand in respect of this racism. is alive and well here and by recent events not much has changed in twenty years in relation to sports.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

You obviously don't think very much of your government if yoy think one of their health bodies would just stop people in the street with a loaded question to make it seem the country is loaded.

OK...if you want to go down this route how about this....how about I say that Ireland is an inherently racist country?

Then I point to Irish government statistics on the treatment on travellers in general and members of the traveller community specifically? I don't have those on hand but I bet I can rustle the stats up in no time at all. I also think I could more than likely find some 'surveys' on Irish peoples views on travellers?

Do you think that Ireland is an inherently racist country? Do you think that you can lump the whole country together and label Ireland as a country that is intrinsically and essentially a racist country?

I think a great deal of my country and it's system of government and I just find your categorisation of my country as 'inherently racist' ignorant and incredibly offensive.

What about if I a I love this country and if you Gave me a horror story about a back packer I would believe it.
Your head is in the sand in respect of this racism. is alive and well here and by recent events not much has changed in twenty years in relation to sports.

I think what you are saying is ridiculous and the points that you are making just make you look ignorant.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

OK...if you want to go down this route how about this....how about I say that Ireland is an inherently racist country?

Then I point to Irish government statistics on the treatment on travellers in general and members of the traveller community specifically? I don't have those on hand but I bet I can rustle the stats up in no time at all. I also think I could more than likely find some 'surveys' on Irish peoples views on travellers?

Do you think that Ireland is an inherently racist country? Do you think that you can lump the whole country together and label Ireland as a country that is intrinsically and essentially a racist country?

I think a great deal of my country and it's system of government and I just find your categorisation of my country as 'inherently racist' ignorant and incredibly offensive.


I think what you are saying is ridiculous and the points that you are making just make you look ignorant.

You can say what yoy like its the internet. our treatment of travellers is appalling it reeks of not in my back yard attitude. Even recently in that poor woman's case in galway where she was told that she couldn't have an abortion as we are a catholic country. However our treatment of our asyulm seekers is much better than yours. Your gov. Is actively trying to annex the mainland, talk about racism winning votes.
if you are unwilling to even acknowledge that Australia has a race problem you are letting pride get in the way.If you want to go and talk about history I could highlight the stolen generation Pauline Hansons comments the recent attacks on Indian students cronulla riots. Inherent racism white Australia policy. The Chinese gold rush treatment.

The your one of us treatment the Irish get we are being over run by Asians your welcome here. You asked me did I know what inherently means I ask you the same thing. If anything the Irish were victims of inherent abuse.

mandrake04

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Do you think that Ireland is an inherently racist country? Do you think that you can lump the whole country together and label Ireland as a country that is intrinsically and essentially a racist country?

Steady on mate its only a TV Program.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

You can say what yoy like its the internet. our treatment of travellers is appalling it reeks of not in my back yard attitude. Even recently in that poor woman's case in galway where she was told that she couldn't have an abortion as we are a catholic country. However our treatment of our asyulm seekers is much better than yours. Your gov. Is actively trying to annex the mainland, talk about racism winning votes.
if you are unwilling to even acknowledge that Australia has a race problem you are letting pride get in the way.If you want to go and talk about history I could highlight the stolen generation Pauline Hansons comments the recent attacks on Indian students cronulla riots. Inherent racism white Australia policy. The Chinese gold rush treatment.

The your one of us treatment the Irish get we are being over run by Asians your welcome here. You asked me did I know what inherently means I ask you the same thing. If anything the Irish were victims of inherent abuse.

You are just talking nonsense. You are making generalisations and then talking about specifics...that's not how discussions work.

You really don't understand what you are talking about. On one hand you are trying to use that fact that some survey says that one in three Australian's think that Australia is weakened by ethnic groups sticking together or that one in three think that some groups shouldn't be here as 'proof' that Australia is inherently racist.

Do you know how many Australian's are born overseas? Do you know how many Australian's have a parent born outside of Australia?

If you actually bother to have a proper think about your arguments and have a proper think about the actual statistics involved you would realise that your arguments just don't 'add up'. Do you really think that if one in four Australian's is born overseas that one in three have the beliefs that study is professing?

The friends that I have that complain the most about 'boat people' and 'refugees' coming to Australia are my Greek and Italian born friends who are 'sick of all these bloody foreigners'.

You are talking in gross and offensive generalisations that are straight out of the tabloid news and current affairs type programs you were whinging about early on in this thread.

Are there racists in Australia, yes. Is Australia the inherently racist country as you've stated, no bloody way.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You are just talking nonsense. You are making generalisations and then talking about specifics...that's not how discussions work.

You really don't understand what you are talking about. On one hand you are trying to use that fact that some survey says that one in three Australian's think that Australia is weakened by ethnic groups sticking together or that one in three think that some groups shouldn't be here as 'proof' that Australia is inherently racist.

Do you know how many Australian's are born overseas? Do you know how many Australian's have a parent born outside of Australia?

If you actually bother to have a proper think about your arguments and have a proper think about the actual statistics involved you would realise that your arguments just don't 'add up'. Do you really think that if one in four Australian's is born overseas that one in three have the beliefs that study is professing?

The friends that I have that complain the most about 'boat people' and 'refugees' coming to Australia are my Greek and Italian born friends who are 'sick of all these bloody foreigners'.

You are talking in gross and offensive generalisations that are straight out of the tabloid news and current affairs type programs you were whinging about early on in this thread.

Are there racists in Australia, yes. Is Australia the inherently racist country as you've stated, no bloody way.

Look will you are obviously patriotic about your country. I am in the option your country has a problem with racism you are in the opinion it is not. The study I referred to states what it states if you can discredit with facts rather than a derogatory leprachaun reference I would be more willing to argue. I love your countrys diversity and cultural range its one of the key reasons I love it so much here. How ever just because these people are here it doesn't mean they are entirely welcome here.
We disagree but it is know the Irish are a bunch of alcos, and the ozzies foul mouthed and racist. No smoke without fire. Now wheres my pint.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Look will you are obviously patriotic about your country. I am in the option your country has a problem with racism you are in the opinion it is not. The study I referred to states what it states if you can discredit with facts rather than a derogatory leprachaun reference I would be more willing to argue. I love your countrys diversity and cultural range its one of the key reasons I love it so much here. How ever just because these people are here it doesn't mean they are entirely welcome here.
We disagree but it is know the Irish are a bunch of alcos, and the ozzies foul mouthed and racist. No smoke without fire. Now wheres my pint.

No, you stated repeatedly that Australia is inherently racist. Inherently infers that Australia is intrinsically racist. Inherently infers that Australia is essentially and by its constituent make up racist. That is nonsense. Do you really think that the one in four people that are proud Australians who were born outside of Australia are racist? Do you think that they are inherently self hating?

Explain to me how that works?

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Look will you are obviously patriotic about your country. I am in the option your country has a problem with racism you are in the opinion it is not. The study I referred to states what it states if you can discredit with facts rather than a derogatory leprachaun reference I would be more willing to argue. I love your countrys diversity and cultural range its one of the key reasons I love it so much here. How ever just because these people are here it doesn't mean they are entirely welcome here.
We disagree but it is know the Irish are a bunch of alcos, and the ozzies foul mouthed and racist. No smoke without fire. Now wheres my pint.

See...this is where we differ...I don't see the treatment of travellers as proof that all Irish are racist. I don't see the sad case of Savita Halappanavar as proof that the Irish are inherently uncaring. In the same way I don't see that cases of racist behaviour or idiotic opinions in Australia as being 'proof' that one of the most multicultural countries in the world with more citizens born outside our nations borders as being one that is by your consistent and continued opinion inherently racist.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

No, you stated repeatedly that Australia is inherently racist. Inherently infers that Australia is intrinsically racist. Inherently infers that Australia is essentially and by its constituent make up racist. That is nonsense. Do you really think that the one in four people that are proud Australians who were born outside of Australia are racist? Do you think that they are inherently self hating?

Explain to me how that works?

You said your friends who are themselves Greek are the ones who complain about bloody foreigners.... ? Would that go someway towards the stats? You seem to have a problem with the report go read it in full and see how they have come to this out landish figure.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

You said your friends who are themselves Greek are the ones who complain about bloody foreigners.... ? Would that go someway towards the stats? You seem to have a problem with the report go read it in full and see how they have come to this out landish figure.

I have read it and if you had any idea what my job is you'd realise how ridiculous this discussion is.

I am done with this discussion. You are entitled to your opinion and because of the country I live in I will continue to fight for your right to have it no matter how idiotic I think it is....just because that's the sort of country Australia is

So feel free to keep making those generalisations and sweeping statements like those newspapers and media outlets that you were so happy to whinge about and I will continue to ensure you are safe and free to do so.

jackbhoy

danotroy wrote: »

You said your friends who are themselves Greek are the ones who complain about bloody foreigners.... ? Would that go someway towards the stats? You seem to have a problem with the report go read it in full and see how they have come to this out landish figure.

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion but as someone who spends a good chunk of my time working with stats and seeing them misrepresented or misused every day I just have to point out that that survey is 7 years old and had a sample size of 4000, that's about 0.017% of the Aus population. Very easy for results to be skewed or inaccurate, especially if sample was not properly randomised.

Will Heffernan

jackbhoy wrote: »

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion but as someone who spends a good chunk of my time working with stats and seeing them misrepresented or misused every day I just have to point out that that survey is 7 years old and had a sample size of 4000, that's about 0.017% of the Aus population. Very easy for results to be skewed or inaccurate, especially if sample was not properly randomised.

For me it was really simple. I took issue with the statement that Australia is inherently racist.

Inherent:
Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute: "inherent dangers". Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic.

I am not saying that there is no racism in Australia but to say that modern day Australia is intrinsically or essentially racist is just ridiculous and just stinks of ignorance.

danotroy

jackbhoy wrote: »

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion but as someone who spends a good chunk of my time working with stats and seeing them misrepresented or misused every day I just have to point out that that survey is 7 years old and had a sample size of 4000, that's about 0.017% of the Aus population. Very easy for results to be skewed or inaccurate, especially if sample was not properly randomised.

Maybe I'm wrong maybe australia is not a racist country. The report may be a small sample 7 years ago but its one of a.series of vic health reports on vthe problem of racism. Its my opinion to think Australia is a racist country I havnt spoke to every Australian but in.my experience here racism seems to be more accepted than I've found whilst here and ive lived in new York Ireland and the UK. I'm not going to thrwal through the net to prove a point as its very easy for me or you, will, to find instances of racism in both countries news online. The issue I raised at the start of the thread was to do with generalisations in the media. We disagree Will maybe I'm.wrong but its the internet we could go all night point out inaccuracies in each others posta. Good night and once more I do love your country